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Old 01-23-2015, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Billings, MT
9,031 posts, read 7,118,157 times
Reputation: 12502

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Quote:
Originally Posted by budlight View Post
Do you, or have you ever had kids? Kids can get into things behind your back in seconds. Kids are not robots. They will usually behave if taught properly but all kids do sneaky things. If you had a child did he ever fall out of a tree? Did he ever sneak off without you knowing, into another room? If he did, by your own admission, shame on you.
Actually, I raised FIVE children from infancy to adulthood. They ALL survived. The youngest are now over 30 years old.
Keep in mind that we raised these kids long before there were any such things as "gun safes" or "trigger locks" or any other such "safety" gimmicks!
I once spent nearly a full day installing "child proof latches" on the kitchen cupboard doors and drawers. My youngest son had them figured out before I got the last one installed. Supposedly, according to the advertising, they were the latest and greatest child protection devices on the market. We left them in place for a week or so, then removed them and threw them away. We decided it would be better to TEACH the kids how to properly use a knife, and that cleaning products were not drinks.
My kids KNEW they were not allowed in our bedroom, and not allowed in the garage with all the dangerous tools, fuels, and oils.
We have FIVE grandkids locally. When they come to visit, they KNOW they are not allowed in our bedroom, or Grammy's craft room, or Papa's den. Nor are they allowed in the barn or the shop unless Papa is with them. No, those rooms and the barn and shop are not locked.
Just like when we had horses, they KNEW to NOT touch the electric fence. They KNEW to stay out of the pasture, and when out there with us to not get behind the horses.
Yes, kids do foolish things. We once had an aluminum awning on two sides of the house. youngest son used to go out his second floor bedroom window, across the roof of the front porch, onto the awning, and into his sister's bedroom window on the other side of the house.
I took the awning down and sold it for scrap.
So, then he went out his bedroom window, over the roof to the back porch, and into his sister's window.
I decided all I could do was teach him to be as careful as possible. It was easier and more effective to TEACH than forbid.
The same applies to guns. If they are not TAUGHT about guns, they will more than likely think they are some kind of a toy, which will very likely lead to a tragedy. When they are TAUGHT, the mystery is gone, and they KNOW what happens when a gun goes off. If they are old enough to walk or ride a tricycle, they are old enough to begin to learn about consequences, and that NO means NO!
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Old 01-23-2015, 12:08 PM
 
Location: Central Florida
3,074 posts, read 1,582,732 times
Reputation: 10330
Quote:
Originally Posted by shyguylh View Post
To an extent, I think sometimes children are the cause of what happens to them, or it truly is simply something that should be regarded as an unfortunate accident. If such children would LISTEN and OBEY versus being so stubborn and pig-headed, then sometimes stuff like this wouldn't happen.

Yes, I realize this child is 2, so it may be asking a bit much given the child's age, and no I am not saying they DESERVED what happened, but come on--the gun wasn't laying around on the coffee table. To an extent, if it's to where a child goes out of their way to go after something that, one would hope, they were told to leave alone (you certainly would hope these parents did that), then to an extent maybe what happens to them is the natural outcome of their stubbornness. And again, in this case, that may not be appropriate given that the child was only 2, but in general, I think there's merit to this stance.

I have memories to tell along these lines which, I think, are somewhat supportive of this stance.

I'm in my 40s. As a child, my parents had 2 weapons in their closet, a .22 semi-auto rifle and a single-shot 12 gauge shotgun, both bought from Sears I believe. These weapons were on ground level, loaded and ready to go (other than the safety probably being engaged). The only "security" besides the safety was that my mother's clothes were in front of them, to where they weren't as visible, but I knew they were there. The closet didn't lock, nor did their bedroom.

Simply enough, I was told "stay out of here, I catch you in here I'll burn your tail up." That was it. Guess what--I never went in there like it was no big deal. The few times I did, I had the undying sense in my conscience that I was doing wrong, and if I was caught--yes, my tail got burned up good. Not only that, if a given aunt or such caught me, THEY'D burn my tail up THEMSELVES or tell my mother who then would do so. They made it clear to me that if something was broken or such (in terms of other belongings) it was MY fault for disobeying, NOT my mother's fault for not locking her door, and I have no doubt the response would've been the same had I used the gun for something bad such as shooting an animal etc. They would NOT have blamed my mother for not locking things up, they'd blamed ME for disobeying.

I was EXPECTED to do as I was told, no one gave 2 cents how I felt or that I was curious, and they let it be known in no uncertain terms "I don't care how you feel or what you like, do as you're told--or else." As far as I'm concerned, they were RIGHT, too.

By contrast, I recall a story years ago about a 12 year old who killed himself with his parent's gun, and the parents had locked their bedroom door, put bars on the windows, locked the weapons in locked drawers, and if I recall correctly the weapons were unloaded and the bullets stored in a separate drawer, again all locked--and the 12-year old overcame all of that and STILL killed himself, and people STILL blamed the parents despite all they had done in trying to secure their weapons. That's ridiculous.

Now, granted, in my case, I was probably older than 2, and I personally am of the mentality of having weapons way out of the way and not "cocked, locked, and ready to rock" as it were, even putting spent shell casings in the chamber so that you KNOW there's no live bullet in the chamber. I'm all for prosecuting for negligence when you're talking about loaded pistols on the coffee table, etc. However, I think there is a point reached where parents have done reasonably enough and shouldn't be expected to live like prisoners in their own home because their child can't do as they're told and leave things alone, especially when the parents have "redirected" by providing suitable alternatives for them to fulfill their exploring tendencies.
I agree with you to a point. I just can't stress enough how stubborn some kids are. Especially a hard-headed child under the age of 4. Each kid is different. Some take to rules immediately, and some, sorry Allison, my child who is now 19, had to have it her way many times. It was a learning experience for us both.
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Old 01-23-2015, 12:15 PM
 
Location: Billings, MT
9,031 posts, read 7,118,157 times
Reputation: 12502
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoopLV View Post
I'm more interested in killing birds than people.

But I see gun accidents like this: If the moron gun owner manages to kill himself or herself (cleaning the gun, for instance), file it under "did society a favor." If the moron gun owner places a loaded gun in the path of a toddler, that's slightly more heart wrenching. But lets face it, the apple isn't going to fall far from the tree. The kid was likely to grow up to be another moron, anyway.

When the moron gun owner places a loaded gun in the path of a toddler, and the toddler shoots the NEIGHBOR'S kid (who was going to grow up to be a Rhodes Scholar), now it's a tragedy. The main problem with morons with guns is when they spill over into the non-moron subset of the American population. Doesn't matter which moron -- the gang moron with a gun, the drug-addled moron with a gun, or just your basic suburban or rural moron. If they only shot each other, America's gun problem could eventually be solved by attrition.

That video is a prime example of the need for GUN CONTROL! That is, CONTROL your gun! Each and every one of those incidents is completely inexcusable!
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Old 01-23-2015, 12:16 PM
 
Location: Sunrise
10,869 posts, read 13,672,280 times
Reputation: 8987
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redraven View Post
The same applies to guns. If they are not TAUGHT about guns, they will more than likely think they are some kind of a toy, which will very likely lead to a tragedy. When they are TAUGHT, the mystery is gone, and they KNOW what happens when a gun goes off. If they are old enough to walk or ride a tricycle, they are old enough to begin to learn about consequences, and that NO means NO!
And by extrapolation, you think that what worked in your specific instance will work for everyone?

Do you think this kid is going to grow up caring much about parental boundaries?




One of the biggest problems with gun ownership is that any moron can go buy one. (Same problem as parenting, when you think about it.) Every time there is a riot in America, a few months later you can count on reading about a spate of accidental gun deaths in the same area -- morons who bought guns "for protection" and then managed to either kill themselves or allow one of their idiot family members to have access to the loaded firearm.

"Don't touch" isn't an effective deterrent for morons. "No means no." That's just precious. And again, if gun deaths (accidental or deliberate) only effected morons with guns I wouldn't care one bit about guns or gun control. Seriously, shovel all the guns into society that you can and let the idiots shoot each other until there aren't any idiots left. And then clean up the mess and enjoy our reasonable, critically-thinking society.

No, just like morons who drink and drive usually manage to kill the innocent, morons with guns kill and maim across the spectrum of society. Not just morons.
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Old 01-23-2015, 12:18 PM
 
Location: Billings, MT
9,031 posts, read 7,118,157 times
Reputation: 12502
Quote:
Originally Posted by budlight View Post
I agree with you to a point. I just can't stress enough how stubborn some kids are. Especially a hard-headed child under the age of 4. Each kid is different. Some take to rules immediately, and some, sorry Allison, my child who is now 19, had to have it her way many times. It was a learning experience for us both.
I guess it comes down to "Who is the boss, YOU or the kid?" My kids KNEW I was the boss. In my house, my grandkids KNOW I am the boss.
Of course, now youngest son is a Deputy Sheriff, so in some instances HE is the boss!
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Old 01-23-2015, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Billings, MT
9,031 posts, read 7,118,157 times
Reputation: 12502
"And by extrapolation, you think that what worked in your specific instance will work for everyone?"
Probably not, but it would be a lot better than the current" be a friend to your child" BS. Children don't need "friends", they need PARENTS!

Oh, and whoever staged that picture should be charged with child Abuse and Endangerment". There is NEVER any excuse for putting a cigarette in the mouth of a baby!
Nor should a baby be posed with a bottle of booze.
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Old 01-23-2015, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Sunrise
10,869 posts, read 13,672,280 times
Reputation: 8987
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redraven View Post
"And by extrapolation, you think that what worked in your specific instance will work for everyone?"
Probably not, but it would be a lot better than the current" be a friend to your child" BS. Children don't need "friends", they need PARENTS!

Oh, and whoever staged that picture should be charged with child Abuse and Endangerment". There is NEVER any excuse for putting a cigarette in the mouth of a baby!
Nor should a baby be posed with a bottle of booze.

So it's OK for you to suggest that whatever moron snapped that picture be charged with child abuse. But it's not OK for me to suggest that morons like that have no business owning firearms. Gotcha.

Some people have no business being anywhere near a firearm, an automobile, or even blunt instruments. Seriously, watch that video I linked a few posts up. Tell me ANY of those people's 2nd amendment right to own a gun trumps my natural right to not be shot by a moron with a gun.
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Old 01-23-2015, 12:39 PM
 
920 posts, read 478,142 times
Reputation: 638
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie gein View Post
Household cleaners are not weapons.

If household cleaners caused the death of 30+ thousand people per year then there would likely be a debate over them.

Really? Just did a web search and found "Mother killed her children by force feeding them bleach"; "Former nurse awaits sentencing for 5 murders by bleach", and I am sure there are plenty more.

This was a horrible tragedy and it was completely preventable. It is really sad that people use such tragedies to forward their own agenda rather than offering prayers to the family!

And yes - guns don't kill people. The gun didn't open the glove box and point itself at the child and pull its trigger. That was sadly done by an innocent child of negligent parents.

Any death of a child is a tragedy, regardless of the cause. Gun control is just the flavor of the day, so those who wish to limit the freedom of others have focused on only those tragedies involving guns and look away at all the other causes of death in children.

No one is denying that the parents were negligent, but that doesn't translate in to legislating more laws to control responsible gun owners.
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Old 01-23-2015, 12:42 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
72,985 posts, read 64,465,955 times
Reputation: 68918
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocnjgirl View Post
The parents were outside the car packing it up.
They were packing the car? And they didn't see the kid head for the car door, and open it? Or did they forget there was a gun in the car? WTH??!!

I guess those people weren't very attached to their kid. It sounds like they just didn't care all that much. Most parents of 2-yr-olds watch their kids like hawks.
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Old 01-23-2015, 12:47 PM
 
Location: NJ
22,780 posts, read 28,649,346 times
Reputation: 14674
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
They were packing the car? And they didn't see the kid head for the car door, and open it? Or did they forget there was a gun in the car? WTH??!!

I guess those people weren't very attached to their kid. It sounds like they just didn't care all that much. Most parents of 2-yr-olds watch their kids like hawks.
do you have children?
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