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Old 02-08-2015, 08:52 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,989 posts, read 98,847,978 times
Reputation: 31402

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Things like breastfeeding for a full year and staying home or hiring a nanny are much more reasonable measures then forcing people to vaccinate against their will. Denying kids access to public schools, to doctor's offices if they don't comply is not reasonable. People need to look at what they can personally do themselves before looking to strangers to protect them. The risk of a child contracting measles is low and the risk of them having complications from measles is even lower. The current "outbreak" of just over 100 people does not warrant the extreme reaction that we have been seeing in the media and in online conversations calling for mandatory vaccinations, jailing of parents who do not comply, etc.
Not everyone can breast feed, and those who can can't always keep it up for a full year. Not to mention, after about six months, the amount of antibody the child is getting, plus the fact that they've lost their maternal antibodies, does not proffer much protection. In fact, from a website you have used in the past:
Measles antibodies in the breast milk of nursing mothers. - PubMed - NCBI
"Our result suggests that very little level of measles antibody is passed through the breast milk."

In your city, and mine, the average cost of a nanny is $24,000 for a year.
Nanny Salary in Denver, CO | Indeed.com

The cost of infant day care is half that. Still expensive.
Day care's cost can exceed college tuition in some states - The Denver Post

The cost of staying home is even more expensive, the family forgoes one person's salary.

The risk of a child contracting measles at school, day care, wherever is higher than the risk of mom or dad contracting it at the office. The risk of a child having complications of the measles is 30% once they contract the disease. Now before you get your calculator and do the math, or go to some anti-vax website where they've done it for you, remember that there is a capriciousness factor in there. You don't know where someone is going to expose your child. No one thought that would happen at Disney. Next time, it might be Disneyworld in Orlando, or Elitch Gardens in Denver.

 
Old 02-08-2015, 09:01 AM
 
8,542 posts, read 5,266,553 times
Reputation: 9110
Quote:
Originally Posted by FallsAngel View Post
Not everyone can breast feed, and those who can can't always keep it up for a full year. Not to mention, after about six months, the amount of antibody the child is getting, plus the fact that they've lost their maternal antibodies, does not proffer much protection. In fact, from a website you have used in the past:
Measles antibodies in the breast milk of nursing mothers. - PubMed - NCBI
"Our result suggests that very little level of measles antibody is passed through the breast milk."

In your city, and mine, the average cost of a nanny is $24,000 for a year.
Nanny Salary in Denver, CO | Indeed.com

The cost of infant day care is half that. Still expensive.
Day care's cost can exceed college tuition in some states - The Denver Post

The cost of staying home is even more expensive, the family forgoes one person's salary.

The risk of a child contracting measles at school, day care, wherever is higher than the risk of mom or dad contracting it at the office. The risk of a child having complications of the measles is 30% once they contract the disease. Now before you get your calculator and do the math, or go to some anti-vax website where they've done it for you, remember that there is a capriciousness factor in there. You don't know where someone is going to expose your child. No one thought that would happen at Disney. Next time, it might be Disneyworld in Orlando, or Elitch Gardens in Denver.
Most people can breastfeed and most of them can make it to a year. Of course not everyone can, but most can. It does offer some protection not just from VPD but from other illnesses. It's very good for an infant's health.

I've met nannies in the park (who seemed like great nannies) who charge much less. People can find nanny shares, etc. It's just one year. If people are that scared of their child contracting measles, they can figure out how to make it work for that one year.

Not everyone can homeschool. Denying access to public schools which we all pay taxes for due to being unvaccinated will put families in a bad position. Not all parents can afford to have one parent stay home with the kids to homeschool for their entire education.

My point remains that people should do everything that they can to protect themselves before pointing the finger at others and expecting them to make changes so that they can feel safer. It's not rational and it's not a reasonable request.
 
Old 02-08-2015, 09:24 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,989 posts, read 98,847,978 times
Reputation: 31402
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Most people can breastfeed and most of them can make it to a year. Of course not everyone can, but most can. It does offer some protection not just from VPD but from other illnesses. It's very good for an infant's health.

I've met nannies in the park (who seemed like great nannies) who charge much less. People can find nanny shares, etc. It's just one year. If people are that scared of their child contracting measles, they can figure out how to make it work for that one year.

Not everyone can homeschool. Denying access to public schools which we all pay taxes for due to being unvaccinated will put families in a bad position. Not all parents can afford to have one parent stay home with the kids to homeschool for their entire education.

My point remains that people should do everything that they can to protect themselves before pointing the finger at others and expecting them to make changes so that they can feel safer. It's not rational and it's not a reasonable request.
But it won't protect the kid from measles. You saw my link, which confirmed what I already knew.

Sure, you can meet nannies in the park who charge less. You can also meet nannies in the park who charge more. That's what an "average" is.

Everyone can homeschool as much as everyone can breastfeed. If people don't want to vaccinate, they can figure out how to make it work. I pay taxes for lots of things I don't use, and for some things I don't approve of. That's life in society.
 
Old 02-08-2015, 09:37 AM
 
8,542 posts, read 5,266,553 times
Reputation: 9110
Quote:
Originally Posted by FallsAngel View Post
But it won't protect the kid from measles. You saw my link, which confirmed what I already knew.

Sure, you can meet nannies in the park who charge less. You can also meet nannies in the park who charge more. That's what an "average" is.

Everyone can homeschool as much as everyone can breastfeed. If people don't want to vaccinate, they can figure out how to make it work. I pay taxes for lots of things I don't use, and for some things I don't approve of. That's life in society.
Do you think that the American people are already doing everything possible to remain healthy and decrease their risk of complications if in fact they are exposed to measles and subsequently contract it? Do you think it's possible that the American people could do anything else to help improve their outcomes? Or is the only answer to force people to get vaccinated whether they want to or not? Which is more important, freedom or a slightly decreased risk of contracting measles?
 
Old 02-08-2015, 10:37 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,989 posts, read 98,847,978 times
Reputation: 31402
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Do you think that the American people are already doing everything possible to remain healthy and decrease their risk of complications if in fact they are exposed to measles and subsequently contract it? Do you think it's possible that the American people could do anything else to help improve their outcomes? Or is the only answer to force people to get vaccinated whether they want to or not? Which is more important, freedom or a slightly decreased risk of contracting measles?
Do I think all 300 million plus are doing so? No. I have no clue what those who have gotten sick in this outbreak are doing. 25% were sick enough they had to be hospitalized. There is no way to predict who will get complications. You anti-vaxers have jumped on this Vitamin A thing, as part of your herbs and spices treatment (reminds me of a Col. Sanders commercial, sorry, I just can't help it) but that is only helpful for people who were vitamin A deficient to begin with, which is not the situation for most Americans.

Your freedom analogy just doesn't ring true, not to mention the fact that no one is currently being forced to immunize, nor have I personally supported forcible immunization.
 
Old 02-08-2015, 10:45 AM
 
8,542 posts, read 5,266,553 times
Reputation: 9110
Quote:
Originally Posted by FallsAngel View Post
Do I think all 300 million plus are doing so? No. I have no clue what those who have gotten sick in this outbreak are doing. 25% were sick enough they had to be hospitalized. There is no way to predict who will get complications. You anti-vaxers have jumped on this Vitamin A thing, as part of your herbs and spices treatment (reminds me of a Col. Sanders commercial, sorry, I just can't help it) but that is only helpful for people who were vitamin A deficient to begin with, which is not the situation for most Americans.

Your freedom analogy just doesn't ring true, not to mention the fact that no one is currently being forced to immunize, nor have I personally supported forcible immunization.
There are some who are calling for forced vaccination and doing away with exemptions (which I think is akin to forced vaccination) Some here on CD. Just because it hasn't yet happened doesn't mean that it won't. I won't ignore the calls for it either and just sit around waiting for it to happen. Once it happens there is really no going back. I'd like to prevent it from reaching that point. I value our freedom too much.

Since you brought up Vitamin A here, I'll share this for anyone wondering what Vitamin A has to do with measles. Vitamin A Protects Against Measles: Top Doctor

Quote:
One simple vitamin may save you from getting measles, and protect you from serious complications if you do contract them. "Adequate vitamin A levels may prevent one from getting measles," Dr. Brownstein tells Newsmax Health, "but studies are clear that one of the best treatments for preventing serious complications from measles is vitamin A supplementation.

"Adequate vitamin A levels are necessary for proper immune system functioning," he says. "When infected with measles, as well as other viral infections, those with marginal vitamin A deficiency can develop more immune system troubles."

While vitamin A deficiencies are usually associated with third-world countries, Americans are not immune. "A study in New York found 22 percent of 89 measles-infected children younger than two years old were vitamin A deficient," says Dr. Brownstein.
 
Old 02-08-2015, 11:02 AM
 
Location: Central Texas
19,884 posts, read 36,406,318 times
Reputation: 21321
Quote:
Originally Posted by texdav View Post
No; its the danger it posses to every child too young to get vaccinated. Some people just do not think: IMO.
This right here. And those who are immune compromised, like my grandson with SCID, or children with cancers that have to have their immune system suppressed in order to try to cure them, or adults, for that matter, in the same situation. Anyone who, because of a compromised immune system, either permanent or temporary, could die because of the irresponsibility of some people.

I'm not for forced vaccination, but I might be for not letting those who will not, rather than cannot, vaccinate send their kids to public schools but require them to attend private schools, say, so that the damage they do can be reduced.

Here in Texas you have to show your vaccination record before attending school (been that way as long as I can remember and my eldest is 42). There are exemptions, but they have to be documented by religion or physician, not just "I don't wanna because I just KNOW it's a bad thing because the internet told me so and science is evil".
 
Old 02-08-2015, 11:03 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,512 posts, read 26,116,900 times
Reputation: 26484
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
We have 90% or higher as a vaccine rate, thats why I'm wondering why you people want to take parents rights away even though parents already vaccinate at one of the highest rates voluntarily here? It doesn't make sense and seems like you have a different agenda.

Suzy claims Mexico has a vaccine rate like ours, as well as South America, and doesn't see the reason to mandate vaccines for foreigners entering our country yet you want to mandate vaccines for our citizens within our country? Why? It doesn't make sense.

We do a great job and our parents for the most part do a great job getting vaccinated. Why the push to prevent them from seeing doctors, and prevent them from making the decision for themselves? It's not logical. You both go from thread to thread about vaccines in America trying to convince mandates, and laws against parental choice? That's concerning. I'm just wondering what your reasoning is for it, since I'm a parent and like having the freedom to choose what happens to my child.

It definitely seems like a witch hunt to me, and when you do that to a parent it could have the opposite effect. You might just help grow the anti vax movement instead. I don't think it's a wise move.
By not vaccinating, you are not only making a decision for your child, you are making a decision for other parents' children, too. You are not "free" to make decisions which will harm others. The fact is that people who do not vaccinate tend to live in areas with vaccination rates that are much lower than 90%, a fact that you continue to ignore. Parents will always have the choice not to vaccinate. No one can force anyone to take a vaccine. However, if you choose not to vaccinate, you have to be willing to accept the consequences of that decision, including having to make alternative plans for your child's education.

By the way, you may want to re-read what I have said about vaccines and travel. I am for it, but it is not going to happen any time soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brownbagg View Post
what about all those coming across the border unvaccinated
Not a source of outbreaks. Most are started by Americans, the rest by legal visitors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
I wonder the same thing. Taking away people's right to choose for themselves and their families takes things to a whole new level and a few of these posters have been pushing it hard lately (Suzy especially). Posting until the wee hours of the morning on every single vaccine related thread on CD pushing for mandatory vaccinations. It makes a person wonder about that agenda.
All you can think of to say is a comment on Suzy's sleep habits? That is absolutely the most hilarious thing I have ever read in a vaccine thread on CD!

Retirement is great! I can go to bed when I want, sleep as late as I want, or even stay up all night and not sleep at all - which I have been known to do on rare occasions if I am reading a particularly good book.

My agenda? That no child should have to suffer from a preventable infectious disease. You take issue with that?

Quote:
If families who vaccinate their children for measles are so worried about the teeny tiny chance that a family who does not will infect their newborn they can do several things to further protect themselves. They can make sure that everyone in their home is vaccinated. The mom can breastfeed until the child is old enough for the vaccine. The passive antibodies will help to protect the baby until that time. The parents can choose not to send their baby to daycare. They can either stay home with the baby themselves or hire a nanny who will agree to get the vaccine if his or her titers do not show antibodies. Forcing people to get vaccinated against their will so that they can feel better seems like the least logical route to protecting themselves and a very dangerous step in taking away people's rights to decide what medical interventions they and their children will or will not receive.
Hire only a nanny who will agree to take the vaccine if she is not immune?!!!! You do not think that is more than a wee bit hypocritical?

This has been addressed. You have been shown on multiple occasions that measles antibodies in milk will not fully protect a child until it is old enough to be vaccinated. In order for there to be antibodies in the milk, the mother must have either had measles or been vaccinated. If she has not done either, she is unprotected against measles, susceptible herself, and cannot protect her baby by breast feeding.

People's right to decide is not being taken away. Vaccine refusers just need to recognize that there are consequences to that decision if you live in a community that for the most part understands that vaccines are safe and effective and that vaccination protects them and the vulnerable in that community.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Things like breastfeeding for a full year and staying home or hiring a nanny are much more reasonable measures then forcing people to vaccinate against their will. Denying kids access to public schools, to doctor's offices if they don't comply is not reasonable. People need to look at what they can personally do themselves before looking to strangers to protect them. The risk of a child contracting measles is low and the risk of them having complications from measles is even lower. The current "outbreak" of just over 100 people does not warrant the extreme reaction that we have been seeing in the media and in online conversations calling for mandatory vaccinations, jailing of parents who do not comply, etc.
The current outbreak demonstrates that there are large holes in herd immunity in this country. We do not want to wait until measles is again endemic in this country before doing something about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
There are some who are calling for forced vaccination and doing away with exemptions (which I think is akin to forced vaccination) Some here on CD. Just because it hasn't yet happened doesn't mean that it won't. I won't ignore the calls for it either and just sit around waiting for it to happen. Once it happens there is really no going back. I'd like to prevent it from reaching that point. I value our freedom too much.

Since you brought up Vitamin A here, I'll share this for anyone wondering what Vitamin A has to do with measles. Vitamin A Protects Against Measles: Top Doctor
Anyone who chooses to vaccinate in order for a child to attend school must really not have strong convictions against vaccinating.

From your vitamin A link: " 'A study in New York found 22 percent of 89 measles-infected children younger than two years old were vitamin A deficient,' says Dr. Brownstein."

That means that 78% of those children were not vitamin A deficient. Taking vitamin A is no guarantee against catching measles.

The biggest risk factor for catching measles in this country is not being vaccinated.

By the way, vitamin A is a part of the standard treatment for measles worldwide. It is not something docs are unaware of.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/articl...nt#aw2aab6b6b4

Last edited by suzy_q2010; 02-08-2015 at 11:20 AM..
 
Old 02-08-2015, 11:03 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,989 posts, read 98,847,978 times
Reputation: 31402
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
There are some who are calling for forced vaccination and doing away with exemptions (which I think is akin to forced vaccination) Some here on CD. Just because it hasn't yet happened doesn't mean that it won't. I won't ignore the calls for it either and just sit around waiting for it to happen. Once it happens there is really no going back. I'd like to prevent it from reaching that point. I value our freedom too much.

Since you brought up Vitamin A here, I'll share this for anyone wondering what Vitamin A has to do with measles. Vitamin A Protects Against Measles: Top Doctor
Everyone: Please be aware Vitamin A does not cure measles, nor prevent it. Any suggestions to the contrary are hogwash.
 
Old 02-08-2015, 11:11 AM
 
8,542 posts, read 5,266,553 times
Reputation: 9110
Quote:
Originally Posted by FallsAngel View Post
Everyone: Please be aware Vitamin A does not cure measles, nor prevent it. Any suggestions to the contrary are hogwash.
People can read for themselves. There are actually quite a few studies regarding the role of vitamin A and measles. Is it a cure? I don't think so but it has been shown to prevent serious complications such as death. If you are so concerned about the complications stemming from measles why would you shun any information that could help people just because it is not a vaccine.

Quote:
However, when stratifying by vitamin A treatment dose, at least two doses were found to reduce measles mortality by 62% (95% CI 1982).
Effectiveness of measles vaccination and vitamin A treatment
Vitamin supplements reduce deaths caused by measles and diarrhea, study finds -- ScienceDaily
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