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Old 02-09-2015, 09:47 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,041 posts, read 98,964,874 times
Reputation: 31527

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Quote:
Originally Posted by WildColonialGirl View Post
The reason they're not horrified is that they've had bigger outbreaks recently. By comparison it's not so bad.

Apparently they have the same problem the US does and Australia did, adults who were vaxxed before they realised that only one vax doesn't make enough people immune. Measles boosters aren't for waning immunity, they're because some proportion of people don't respond to each shot. So if 90% of people seroconvert each time they're vaccinated, then one vax will leave 90% immune, two will leave 99% immune and the remainder don't matter because they'll be randomly distributed and surrounded by a buffer of immune people. It's when non-immune people cluster at Waldorf schools and the like that they can pass the infection amongst themselves.
I was on another website this morning that pointed out that given Germany's population of 80 million (that denominator that I'm always talking about) this outbreak is HUGE! Which does make you wonder about their statistics.

 
Old 02-09-2015, 09:57 AM
Status: "Finally Done With C-D BYE BYE" (set 24 days ago)
 
Location: LEAVING CD
22,947 posts, read 21,523,597 times
Reputation: 15431
I look at it this way, you should vaccinate for things like MMR...PERIOD. With that being said I don't think it should be made mandatory, it should be by choice. With that being said it should be mandatory to enter any school that your child be properly vaccinated.

What could possibly be my reasoning for this? While each parent has the right to choose to vaccinate or not you do NOT have the right to endanger others with your choices.
It is possible that some people may have decreased/no immunity even though they were vaccinated properly due to when they got the vaccine or just have a lousy immune system. Those people have a right to not get sick/die from your choice as a parent.
I wouldn't want someone with TB going into a group of unsuspecting people and coughing all over them so why is this any different?
Choices have consequences and one of them in this particular instance should be the lack of ability to place a potential virus factory into the midst of others for hours on end.
 
Old 02-09-2015, 10:28 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,569 posts, read 26,201,545 times
Reputation: 26618
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaldoKitty View Post
Of course I didn't read it. I don't do battle of the web links. If you can't describe your point with a few simple paragraphs at most instead of pointing to someone else's opinion articles then you are are on very shaky ground. Cutting & pasting other people's stuff isn't a substitute for proving your point. All you are proving there is that you have faith in someone else's beliefs.

What I said was simple enough. You simply chose not to address it.
Of course, you did not read it. It contradicts what you want to believe. Where the sources of measles outbreaks in this country have been identified, it is usually (three fourths of those outbreaks) an unvaccinated American who has traveled abroad, picked up the virus, and brought it here. The other one fourth were started by legal visitors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalSun View Post
1) The measles virus.
2) Measles "vaccinations".
3) Immigration of infected persons or disease carriers.

It has been scientifically and historically proven that areas which are highly vaccinated have more cases of the measles than less or non-vaccinated places.

Moreover, it's good to get the measles. Measles survivors have been shows to have a stronger immune system and be immune to things like breast cancer.
No, outbreaks happen in areas of low vaccinations rates. That's why there was a large outbreak in an Amish community in Ohio last year.

If measles prevented breast cancer, no woman born before the vaccine was introduced should have ever had breast cancer, so that idea is obviously false.

There is no "carrier" state for measles. People who get infected with it may have symptoms of varying severity, but they do not harbor the virus in an asymptomatic state for long periods, as may be done with typhoid.

Immigrants are not the source of measles outbreaks. Most are started by Americans, the rest by legal visitors. Illegal immigrants from countries to the south of us are as likely or more likely to have been vaccinated against measles as Americans.
 
Old 02-09-2015, 10:31 AM
 
5,669 posts, read 3,211,795 times
Reputation: 6655
Mandatory/forced vaccination of children, for the greater good, sets up a dangerous precedence. Legally, it "opens the door" to extensions of that. If the law mandates that children must be vaccinated, then that precedence sets up mandatory/forced adult vaccinations for the greater good also.

In the larger context of vaccination is the issue of medical care entirely. If vaccinations can be forced by law, then the next step can be forced medical care, period. The door is open to that from the forced vaccinations. Yes, that is the slippery slope others are talking about. Does the government have the right, in the interest of society, to prevent the death of any citizen, including against their will? Not to get too OT here, forced chemo, forced resusitation (no DNR?), etc. Nuremberg Codes go out the door? Why are the German people less concerned with their measles outbeaks than Americans are? Think about that one.

You don't think the medical industry would just love forced medical care whatever the person's age? Read through these threads and you can see that one. You know who I am talking about.
 
Old 02-09-2015, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,041 posts, read 98,964,874 times
Reputation: 31527
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Mandatory/forced vaccination of children, for the greater good, sets up a dangerous precedence. Legally, it "opens the door" to extensions of that. If the law mandates that children must be vaccinated, then that precedence sets up mandatory/forced adult vaccinations for the greater good also.

In the larger context of vaccination is the issue of medical care entirely. If vaccinations can be forced by law, then the next step can be forced medical care, period. The door is open to that from the forced vaccinations. Yes, that is the slippery slope others are talking about. Does the government have the right, in the interest of society, to prevent the death of any citizen, including against their will? Not to get too OT here, forced chemo, forced resusitation (no DNR?), etc. Nuremberg Codes go out the door? Why are the German people less concerned with their measles outbeaks than Americans are? Think about that one.

You don't think the medical industry would just love forced medical care whatever the person's age? Read through these threads and you can see that one. You know who I am talking about.
Honey, it's already been decided that mandatory immunizations are legal.
https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RS21414.pdf

Those who come on here screaming "give me liberty. . . " are like the anti-income tax people. It's decided law.

Comparing immunization laws to the nazis will not do much to advance your case.
 
Old 02-09-2015, 11:26 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles County
11,092 posts, read 9,042,198 times
Reputation: 29104
Quote:
Originally Posted by FallsAngel View Post
Honey, it's already been decided that mandatory immunizations are legal.
https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RS21414.pdf

Those who come on here screaming "give me liberty. . . " are like the anti-income tax people. It's decided law.

Comparing immunization laws to the nazis will not do much to advance your case.
Do you realize how condescending your post sounds?
 
Old 02-09-2015, 11:30 AM
 
1,385 posts, read 1,148,080 times
Reputation: 1706
We don't know why the 28 were unvaccinated, but we do know that five were and still got measels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
It is curious that you home in on the 5 who were fully vaccinated and do not comment on the 28 who were not vaccinated.

The unvaccinated are the fuel that spreads an outbreak.
But you've been arguing that there are sooooo many "anti-vaxxers" out there and the vaccination rate is declining, yet nationally there are only c. 40 to 200 cases per year (2014 being the exception). You seem to be missing the bigger picture here: personal liberty and rights and freedoms can be eroded by appeals to the betterment of society (through science). I think if properly informed, the vast majority of people will choose to get vaccinated. But if this becomes forced by the state, then what next, and what next after that?

Quote:
The reason there are so few cases in the US is the high vaccination rate. The Disney outbreak just happened to be introduced into an area with pockets of low vaccine coverage. That's why we are seeing more cases.
They have the freedom to choose not to get vaccinated - that's what America promised them when they had to flee the kind of persecution that we're now starting to see creep into our society. These Amish were probably Beachy or the more liberal ones who are hardly isolated - yet we're supposed to believe that after all these years of not being vaccinated they happened to bring it back from the Philippines?

Quote:
Larger outbreaks happen when someone introduces the virus into a group of people with very low vaccination rates, such as the one involving an Amish community in Ohio last year, where missionaries picked it up in the Philippines and brought it home. There were 383 cases, and it stayed contained because the Amish stay near home mostly.
You stated that California has a below average vaccination rate, places that have lower rates "tend to see more measles cases," yet there's no evidence to support that California has been experiencing higher rates of measles cases. And as you have admitted, the outbreak occurred at Disneyland, a tourist destination, a destination that draws huge numbers of out-of-state and international visitors. First you claimed the of course the outbreak happened in California because of its lower vaccination rate, then you changed your tune and said it was a foreigner. All this speculation yet we still really don't know what the source of the outbreak really was, do we?

Quote:
The Disney outbreak spread to multiple states because the exposed population was transient.

The assumptions you are trying to make about the way infectious diseases spread are incorrect. The overall vax rate is 90+ percent, but there are areas where it is much lower than that, and that is where we tend to see more measles cases.
 
Old 02-09-2015, 11:35 AM
 
38,429 posts, read 15,410,490 times
Reputation: 16955
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Of course, you did not read it. It contradicts what you want to believe..
No it doesn't. I read it after the fact. Furthermore you don't know what I believe, only what I post here. And I note that you didn't address that.

Now if you wish to actually address what I've posted, then please do so, but I'm guessing that you can't.


Anyone who doesn't get their kids vaccinated is irresponsible and self centered. Period. There is no scientific or technical reason not to. (of course barring a true specific medical reason as proscribed by MD)
 
Old 02-09-2015, 11:36 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,569 posts, read 26,201,545 times
Reputation: 26618
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangokiwi View Post
1st of all, I don't believe that, but I am sure it's being said in the mainstream media. That's because they are pushing immigration on us.
2nd of all, you are talking about maybe a thousand kids. That's not the millions of illegals who are in the country and all the others who are trying to get in every single day.

The border is basically wide open for whoever wants to run across it.

There's a reason why Swine Flu, Hand Foot and Mouth Disease, and now Measles outbreaks all happened in Southern California. That's right on the Mexican border.
I'll choose to believe the doctor treating the unaccompanied children, who has a better handle on the situation than anyone else.
.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FallsAngel View Post
Just one more post before someone else responds. I was on Facebook, looking at my "Immunize Colorado" page. They posted this story, which also shows a measles quarantine sign, for those of you who don't believe they ever existed. I just noticed the article does have some errors about the timing of the introduction of the measles vaccines. Both killed and live measles vaccines were introduced in 1963. The killed vaccine was taken off the market in 1968.

Should adults be vaccinated for measles? | NJ.com (Article with picture)
Ask the Experts about Measles, Mumps, and Rubella (MMR) Vaccines - CDC experts answer Q&As
Great links. Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Mandatory/forced vaccination of children, for the greater good, sets up a dangerous precedence. Legally, it "opens the door" to extensions of that. If the law mandates that children must be vaccinated, then that precedence sets up mandatory/forced adult vaccinations for the greater good also.

In the larger context of vaccination is the issue of medical care entirely. If vaccinations can be forced by law, then the next step can be forced medical care, period. The door is open to that from the forced vaccinations. Yes, that is the slippery slope others are talking about. Does the government have the right, in the interest of society, to prevent the death of any citizen, including against their will? Not to get too OT here, forced chemo, forced resusitation (no DNR?), etc. Nuremberg Codes go out the door? Why are the German people less concerned with their measles outbeaks than Americans are? Think about that one.

You don't think the medical industry would just love forced medical care whatever the person's age? Read through these threads and you can see that one. You know who I am talking about.
Mandatory vaccination has legal support dating back to the introduction of the smallpox vaccine. We have not slid down the slippery slope because of it.

No one is forced to take any treatment, except perhaps minors who are deemed incapable of making decisions for themselves. All adults need to do is have a living will and make their desires known to their next of kin. If you do not have a DNR in place, the presumption is that you would want to be resuscitated. That is not being "forced."
 
Old 02-09-2015, 12:02 PM
 
1,385 posts, read 1,148,080 times
Reputation: 1706
Yes, we have, actually. You just can't or won't recognize this fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Mandatory vaccination has legal support dating back to the introduction of the smallpox vaccine. We have not slid down the slippery slope because of it.

No one is forced to take any treatment, except perhaps minors who are deemed incapable of making decisions for themselves. All adults need to do is have a living will and make their desires known to their next of kin. If you do not have a DNR in place, the presumption is that you would want to be resuscitated. That is not being "forced."
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