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Old 02-09-2015, 07:46 PM
 
8,541 posts, read 5,260,408 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaldoKitty View Post
  • "extreme pro-vaxxers" = insult to anyone who disagrees with you. A logical argument does not require this sort of tactic.
  • You don't wait until a pandemic occurs before taking measures. You do everything you can to prevent it.
An extreme pro-vaxxer would be someone who wants things like mandatory vaccinations for all. It does not apply to people who are very much in favor of vaccines but do not wish to push them on others. Besides, these people (people in this conversation) refer to the other side as anti-vaxxers (among other things) so I don't see how the term would be so offensive to them. I've had much worse things said about me by some of the people on this board who I do feel are extreme.

 
Old 02-09-2015, 07:50 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,957 posts, read 98,776,620 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Boulder is very "granola" compared to most of the country so if you're in the Boulder area you'll get disportationately exposed to more of the liberal anti-vaccine views. There's a small partisan divide on vaccines:

Young adults more likely to say vaccinating kids should be a parental choice | Pew Research Center

65% of Republicans believe vaccines should be required vs 76% of Democrats. Note the "requirements", perhaps there are more Republicans who believe vaccines are worthwhile but the government shouldn't mandate due to political principle rather than any health belief while Democrats are less likely to have that combination of beliefs. It seems like a few Republican political voices have spoken against mandatory vaccinations, while no, or at least no prominent, Democratic political voices have.

Hmm. This graph on the page agrees with you: views on vaccine risk aren't correlated with political views.

Measles: Vaccine Views Are Not Actually Politically Split

Entertainingly, the most liberal respondents were slightly more likely to rank childhood vaccination as more risky than legalized marijuana.
As I said, the ones who are really opposed to immunization, e.g. totally refusing to get their kids immunized, do not show up at an immunization clinic where the only activity is providing immunizations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WaldoKitty View Post
  • "extreme pro-vaxxers" = insult to anyone who disagrees with you. A logical argument does not require this sort of tactic.
  • You don't wait until a pandemic occurs before taking measures. You do everything you can to prevent it.
Exactly!

Using fear tactics-pro-vaxers who say that disease can kill and maim.
Just stating facts-Antivaxers who talk about vaccines causing autism, vague remarks about possible unknown consequences years later regarding vaccines that have been available for >50 years, toxins, etc.
 
Old 02-09-2015, 08:00 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,957 posts, read 98,776,620 times
Reputation: 31371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Geek View Post
Do you realize how condescending your post sounds?
Did you follow that post, from post #1 to post #205, the one you think is condescending?

Search this thread for the words "liberty", "tyranny", "freedom", etc. Some of the rhetoric sounds like the second coming of the Continental Congress of 1776. Note also that when income tax time comes around, there will be numerous threads started about how illegal income tax is. That battle, and the battle over mandatory vaccination, is over.
 
Old 02-09-2015, 08:20 PM
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Location: Western Massachusetts
45,737 posts, read 39,610,543 times
Reputation: 14671
Quote:
Originally Posted by FallsAngel View Post
suzy_q2010 beat me to it. I saw this post while we were at a restaurant for dinner, and was thinking the same thing. All these calculations, and then some, have been done.

I have been hesitant to bring up economic concerns, b/c I figured it would just set off the anti-vaxers with accusatory stuff like "you want to inject babies with poisons so the moms can go to work", etc. Since the genie is now out of the bottle, I will say, most vaccine-preventable diseases have an economic impact.

Anything that forces an employee to take two weeks off work for illness, their own or their child's, has an economic impact. Since this thread is about measles, I'll stick with measles.
Makes sense, though I was thinking of the cost of administering a vaccine vs the health benefits rather the cost of getting sick. At the obvious extreme, there's no mandatory yellow fever vaccine nor do people choose to get it unless they travel as there is no yellow fever in the US. But is it worth the cost for everyone to get a rabies vaccine? Rabies is a deadly disease but it's not vaccinated against until someone might catch it. If there were an AIDS vaccine would it be worthwhile for everyone to get? Ebola?
 
Old 02-09-2015, 11:00 PM
 
Location: Dallas, Texas
8,855 posts, read 10,310,313 times
Reputation: 9266
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Measles is conspicuously absent from your list.



I have provided ample evidence that measles is not being imported into the US by illegal immigrants. Can you give me an example of a single confirmed outbreak of measles in the US being started by an illegal immigrant? When did it happen? Where?
Went to the actual page and it says on the top, Warning! This information is outdated. Interesting that measles is also absent from the page, and not just the poster's list.

Adding, found this http://www.cfr.org/interactives/GH_Vaccine_Map/#map.
 
Old 02-09-2015, 11:43 PM
 
477 posts, read 375,277 times
Reputation: 1547
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Most people can breastfeed and most of them can make it to a year. Of course not everyone can, but most can. It does offer some protection not just from VPD but from other illnesses. It's very good for an infant's health.

I've met nannies in the park (who seemed like great nannies) who charge much less. People can find nanny shares, etc. It's just one year. If people are that scared of their child contracting measles, they can figure out how to make it work for that one year.

Not everyone can homeschool. Denying access to public schools which we all pay taxes for due to being unvaccinated will put families in a bad position. Not all parents can afford to have one parent stay home with the kids to homeschool for their entire education.

My point remains that people should do everything that they can to protect themselves before pointing the finger at others and expecting them to make changes so that they can feel safer. It's not rational and it's not a reasonable request.
Breastfeeding for more than 6 weeks was beyond my ability. There is only so much time I am willing to spend in the bathroom at work pumping my breasts, and that exceeds the amount of time my employer is willing to have that going on - and that put an end to the breastfeeding. And I was a professional, with more freedom than, say, someone working the cash register at Valdemart. Breast feeding is most definitely NOT possible for most people.

Any nanny who is earning less than 24k per year is grossly underpaid, and the people making her work for slavey wages ought to be (but probably aren't) ashamed.

Can't afford to homeschool? Oh well. You want your kid to get the free public education? Vaccinate. You have no right to put others at risk because you have silly notions about vaccination - or anything else. Don't want to vaccinate? Manage education on your own then. Your choice.

Talk about not rational and not reasonable - that describes parents who refuse to vaccinate their kids in the absence of a valid medical excuse precisely.

If you won't vaccinate your child, then I don't want him or her around my child. Your child becomes a risk for everyone they are around. Your child becomes part of the population of incubators who can and will infect others - mostly those who also didn't get vaccinated, but sometimes young children who haven't reached the age for vaccination yet, and sometimes children or adults whose vaccinations failed.

They all run the risk of being carriers - infectious, without showing symptoms. Like Typhoid Mary.
 
Old 02-10-2015, 12:30 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,476 posts, read 26,078,274 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXNGL View Post
Went to the actual page and it says on the top, Warning! This information is outdated. Interesting that measles is also absent from the page, and not just the poster's list.

Adding, found this Map: Vaccine-Preventable Outbreaks | Introduction.
Yeah, I've played with that, too. Someone else posted it in one of the other recent vaccine threads.

There is an error in the measles info, though. The big measles outbreak in Ohio last year is on the 2015 map instead of 2014. I have reported it.
 
Old 02-10-2015, 06:58 AM
 
2,442 posts, read 1,795,692 times
Reputation: 4644
There is no need to go to the economic argument for measles vaccine. The basic numbers of harm/risk are all you need to see that the lower risk strategy is to vaccinate.

Now, chicken pox and flu vaccines have an economic component, because their benefits are less dramatic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Makes sense, though I was thinking of the cost of administering a vaccine vs the health benefits rather the cost of getting sick. At the obvious extreme, there's no mandatory yellow fever vaccine nor do people choose to get it unless they travel as there is no yellow fever in the US. But is it worth the cost for everyone to get a rabies vaccine? Rabies is a deadly disease but it's not vaccinated against until someone might catch it. If there were an AIDS vaccine would it be worthwhile for everyone to get? Ebola?
Rabies vaccine only buys you a few days after exposure to get started on the IgG shots. The vaccine is useful for situations where you could be exposed and be a few days from medical care. In developed places where there is rabies you're either going to know you were exposed (and get teatment ASAP) or completely ignorant of it and not get treatment at all.
 
Old 02-10-2015, 07:28 AM
 
8,541 posts, read 5,260,408 times
Reputation: 9100
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeonGecko View Post
Breastfeeding for more than 6 weeks was beyond my ability. There is only so much time I am willing to spend in the bathroom at work pumping my breasts, and that exceeds the amount of time my employer is willing to have that going on - and that put an end to the breastfeeding. And I was a professional, with more freedom than, say, someone working the cash register at Valdemart. Breast feeding is most definitely NOT possible for most people.

Any nanny who is earning less than 24k per year is grossly underpaid, and the people making her work for slavey wages ought to be (but probably aren't) ashamed.

Can't afford to homeschool? Oh well. You want your kid to get the free public education? Vaccinate. You have no right to put others at risk because you have silly notions about vaccination - or anything else. Don't want to vaccinate? Manage education on your own then. Your choice.

Talk about not rational and not reasonable - that describes parents who refuse to vaccinate their kids in the absence of a valid medical excuse precisely.

If you won't vaccinate your child, then I don't want him or her around my child. Your child becomes a risk for everyone they are around. Your child becomes part of the population of incubators who can and will infect others - mostly those who also didn't get vaccinated, but sometimes young children who haven't reached the age for vaccination yet, and sometimes children or adults whose vaccinations failed.

They all run the risk of being carriers - infectious, without showing symptoms. Like Typhoid Mary.
You refuse to take full responsibility for protecting your child yet you expect strangers to make sacrifices for you.
 
Old 02-10-2015, 08:24 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,957 posts, read 98,776,620 times
Reputation: 31371
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeonGecko View Post
Breastfeeding for more than 6 weeks was beyond my ability. There is only so much time I am willing to spend in the bathroom at work pumping my breasts, and that exceeds the amount of time my employer is willing to have that going on - and that put an end to the breastfeeding. And I was a professional, with more freedom than, say, someone working the cash register at Valdemart. Breast feeding is most definitely NOT possible for most people.

Any nanny who is earning less than 24k per year is grossly underpaid, and the people making her work for slavey wages ought to be (but probably aren't) ashamed.

Can't afford to homeschool? Oh well. You want your kid to get the free public education? Vaccinate. You have no right to put others at risk because you have silly notions about vaccination - or anything else. Don't want to vaccinate? Manage education on your own then. Your choice.

Talk about not rational and not reasonable - that describes parents who refuse to vaccinate their kids in the absence of a valid medical excuse precisely.

If you won't vaccinate your child, then I don't want him or her around my child. Your child becomes a risk for everyone they are around. Your child becomes part of the population of incubators who can and will infect others - mostly those who also didn't get vaccinated, but sometimes young children who haven't reached the age for vaccination yet, and sometimes children or adults whose vaccinations failed.

They all run the risk of being carriers - infectious, without showing symptoms. Like Typhoid Mary.
Not to mention, as some of us have shown several times now, breast feeding really provides little, if any protection against measles.
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