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Old 02-10-2015, 01:11 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,025 posts, read 98,908,697 times
Reputation: 31466

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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
Since they are decided already, then what exactly do you pro vaxers want? I believe in womens rights, fathers rights and parental rights and I am weary of people who push agendas out of fear and hyperbowl such as this fear that Measles is out of control due to people who choose not to vaccinate. Concern yes, campaigns for vaccinating, material on good choices, yes, yes, yes, but.....that has already been discused and doesn't seem to meet the demand.....

So, what do you all want? Will you allow selective vaccination? Will knew vaccines be introduced without choice in the mandates? Will it only involve right to education if you don't get them? Or, will it also involve right to medical care?

Will it go as far as to become law, as if you don't adhear to the vaccine schedule the state mandates you get a fine like you do when you don't get car or now health insurance? Or will it mean jail time like the parents who 's kids are truant from school? Or will you be willing for it to be treated like child abuse and the kids will go to foster care, like the lady with an overweight child recently that was removed for his weight from the family and put in the foster care system? Or the lady who let her child walk down the street to go to the park.

I'm through arguing about why some people want the right to choose, obviously moot, now I'm on to how far you want this to go and what it will entail. Because, most people get vaccines, not all or on schedule but most do. So what is it you'd like to force us to do exactly?

Pro womens rights, pro parents, pro gun, we all know what these "mean" now, but not quite what the new pro vax movement is wanting, or what does it "mean" to be pro vax? How far are you going with this?

When you are all meeting on threads, arguing for vaccines, is that it? Or is that just the beginning? What's your dream for our future.

Oh, and every pro vaxer on here please, feel free to help answer this. What are we not doing already that you want done?
OK, I've only read down to here. If I repeat something another person has posted, I apologize.

I am weary of people who push antivax agendas using fear tactics. "Your kid will get autism". "There may be some untoward side effects years later that haven't shown up yet b/c this measles vaccine is only 52 years old. What might happen in year 53?" "Mercury causes autism." "Mercury is in vaccines." "There is aluminum in MMR and aluminum is harmful". (Two lies for the price of one.) Yada, yada, yada. yourself! If the anti-vaxers would stop with THEIR fear tactics, they would have nothing to talk about.

As another poster said, you (plural) need to stop seeing a slippery slope in everything! Some of you are old enough to remember the old John Birch Society "communist under every bush" mantra. That's what this stuff is. And this is the first time, though no doubt not the last, that I've heard pro-vaxers being accused of having other agendas. Maybe you could be more specific.

If you're through arguing, why did you post seven more times (already)?

To your last question, we need to make it harder to get vaccine exemptions. I'm fine with making it difficult as H to get them. Whether that means the parents have to do an online education module, or go to a class at the local health department first or whatever, it needs to be made harder. If you're going to allow religious exemptions, make the pastor of your church have to sign the form. These are just a few ideas.

 
Old 02-10-2015, 01:12 PM
 
48,973 posts, read 39,447,996 times
Reputation: 30630
Quote:
Originally Posted by FallsAngel View Post
Yes. My daughter volunteers at a wildlife rehab center and to work with certain animals she had to get the rabies vaccine. This is in Minneapolis, which has many health care facilities.
Yowza, now that's an important vaccine to take in that role.
By the time symptoms show up there is no available treatment and you are going to die from it.
 
Old 02-10-2015, 01:19 PM
 
8,546 posts, read 5,273,203 times
Reputation: 9115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken S. View Post
You also have to look at other things like funding, the author's political agenda, and the journal's own editorial policies. Often you'll find that this results in their following a line that conforms to the prevailing beliefs in the scientific community. Scientific data/findings that rock the boat too much are either rejected or viciously attacked and denounced. People fail to understand just how petty, factional, egotistical, and mean-spirited most scientists are. Once the majority get swayed into believing certain things, woe to those who provide evidence that they are in fact wrong... An example I would suggest looking into is Rachel Carson when she published Silent Spring.
I agree with you on this as well.
 
Old 02-10-2015, 01:22 PM
 
8,546 posts, read 5,273,203 times
Reputation: 9115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
How do you feel about Wakefield then? Because JM never put forth her own studies but rather brought attention to guys like Wakefield.
I'd also say that a fear of autism is not my top concern.
 
Old 02-10-2015, 01:26 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,025 posts, read 98,908,697 times
Reputation: 31466
Quote:
Originally Posted by Everdeen View Post
What galls me is how a bleach blond, playboy bunny is now an "expert" on public health policy.

Not the scientists who use the highest objective methods to perform research. Not the virologists. Not the legions of advanced medical practitioners who not only vaccinate themselves, but their children. Nope. Jenny McCarthy.



That is my understanding too.



I know that when I was pregnant, my doctor insisted on me having a blood test performed to see if I was vaccinated against Rubella. It came back as no. I showed him my immunization record to prove that I had been immunized and he said that, overtime, they do wear off on some people. I could not get immunized while pregnant and he wasn't too worried about it, really. After all, I was fairly protected by herd immunity. He did caution me, though, about being around anyone who might have the disease.

I figured that most of my childhood immunizations had worn off, but again, wasn't worried because of the herd immunity.

This most recent outbreak has brought it to the forefront of my mind. Which is a good thing. For someone like me to get measles now, it could likely be dire. I went and got the adult MMR.

LET'S ALL LIGHT A CANDLE AND GIVE THANKS THAT THE ANTI-VAXXERS DID NOT HAVE THIS KIND OF TRACTION WHEN SMALLPOX WAS BEING ERADICATED.



I would not blame a party or a group on the anti vaccination movement. I know a Tea Party obstetrician who vaccinates and know that many wealthy liberals vaccinate also.

It's the fringies from all groups.
You're talking about a different type of measles, rubeola or "hard" measles that is circulating right now. Rubella is a totally different disease. I'd have to research that vaccine more before I could make any specific statements. It's also true that some health care providers know more about vaccines than others.

That you were tested and found non-immune after getting vaccinated may mean your immunity wore off, or that you never responded to the vaccine in the first place.

Actually, anti-vaxers did oppose smallpox vaccination. History of Anti-vaccination Movements — History of Vaccines It took about 200 years from the invention of the SPVto the elimination of the disease.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phonelady61 View Post
I understand the amish don't go to public schools and they usually have their own drs and communitys do they not ? they mainly stay to themselves and I don't know if amish believe in vaccines or not . I cant speak for the amish . I watched a medical show and they are saying that if adults had their shots in the 60s they are fine however before 1958 you should have your immunitys checked . I hope this answered some of your ?s
The Amish are not opposed, as a religion, to vaccination. They do have a very low rate of vaccination. Private schools are required to follow the same laws as public schools here in Colorado. I believe that's true in Pennsylvania too, but the Amish have been given a lot of leeway to do things "their way".
What religions actually state about vaccines
 
Old 02-10-2015, 01:31 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,025 posts, read 98,908,697 times
Reputation: 31466
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
So what about the religious? Do you think we should march into the Amish community and force vaccination? The pro vaxers that are encouraging parents to tell their doctors not to accept unvaccinated patients or they won't come, so they are now doing this because of money, do you think this is on the right track? Is this all part of it? What about the time you get them? Do you also have to stay on schedule?
And what about the adults? Do you also have to get your immunity checked as an adult and get boosters if you aren't immune anymore?
This Amish issue has been discussed over and over. I just posted a link above about immunizations and religion. What makes you think doctors are refusing patients who don't immunize because of money? Wouldn't losing patients cost them money? Wouldn't treating the diseases make more money than the vaccines? Look at this: http://www.denverpost.com/News/Local...llnesses-costs About 29 million to treat vaccine preventable diseases in CO in 2013; 29,000 to treat three vaccine adverse events. It cost 100X as much to treat the diseases! And that's just hospital treatment for the VPDs. Well, for both, really, but many VPDs are treated in the community, but there are still the doctor visits and the meds. Most adults probably DO NOT pay enough attention to their immunizations. It is now recommended that any adult, and particularly those who are around small children a lot, get one dose of Tdap vaccine to protect the kids from pertussis. If one was born before 1957, or has had two documented doses of live measles vaccine, or has had a positive titer for measles they are considered immune. People working in certain health fields have to show proof of immunization/immunity to hepatitis B, measles, mumps and rubella, and other diseases. Everyone should get a tetanus booster (contained in Td/Tdap) every 10 years. One of those boosters, as I said above, should be Tdap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
Do you know how many people actually follow Jenny's advice on vaccinating in America for their reasons to exclude any vaccines? Is it that large of an amount?
I dunno. She wrote a book. People believe all sorts of celebrities, Oprah, Bill Maher, etc. Why not Jenny?
Jenny McCarthy on Autism and Vaccines - TIME

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
Same thing if someones kids die or get hurt from an allergic reaction or immune system issue from the shot. Thats why its a choice and choices are hard because of the consequences. Most people get vaccinated, a few do not for many reasons.
OMG, the "immune system". This has become the replacement for the fascination with the GI system. Most people who invoke the immune system in these discussions have no idea how the immune system actually works. Not saying you, PoppySead, but we've seen people in these threads post that infants born to immunized mothers don't get any antibodies from their moms, that antibodies are somehow heritable, all kinds of utter nonsense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
The majority of people born before 1957 actually had measles as children. It was a common as getting a cold (or flu) back then.
Yes, it was common as a cold, but not as innocuous.

Last edited by Katarina Witt; 02-10-2015 at 01:53 PM..
 
Old 02-10-2015, 01:56 PM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,401 posts, read 9,557,052 times
Reputation: 7421
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
You said vaccines cause allergic reactions or immune issues. The risk of that happening are tiny.

Someone who is known to be allergic to a vaccine or immunosuppressed has a medical contraindication. No one advocates giving them vaccines and they deserve the benefit of herd immunity. I have never said there should not be medical exemptions. Where did you get that impression?

The problem is the people who do not want to vaccinate because they believe the myths that the anti-vax community promulgates. Bad decisions based on pseudoscience should not be enabled. Fear of a vaccine causing autism should not be grounds for a vaccine exemption, and that continues to be a major reason for vaccine refusal.
Kids have a lot more than just Autism. Seizures, immunity related illnesses, all kinds of reasons some parents delay vaccines. Not everyone knows before either, some find out they are allergic after its first dose. So, things can happen that weigh on parents minds, its a hard job. I delayed my sons vaccines because they weren't sure if he was having seizures or it was Tourettes. At that time the Neuro said to wait but the family doc said its ok. You paint such a black and white picture. It's not just Jenny followers against pro vaxers.
By the way, he has them now because they found out it was in fact TS.

Last edited by PoppySead; 02-10-2015 at 02:17 PM.. Reason: sorry on ipad
 
Old 02-10-2015, 02:00 PM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,401 posts, read 9,557,052 times
Reputation: 7421
Quote:
Originally Posted by FallsAngel View Post
This Amish issue has been discussed over and over. I just posted a link above about immunizations and religion. What makes you think doctors are refusing patients who don't immunize because of money? Wouldn't losing patients cost them money? Wouldn't treating the diseases make more money than the vaccines? Look at this: Report: Low vaccination rates in Colorado result in illnesses, costs - The Denver Post About 29 million to treat vaccine preventable diseases in CO in 2013; 29,000 to treat three vaccine adverse events. It cost 100X as much to treat the diseases! And that's just hospital treatment for the VPDs. Well, for both, really, but many VPDs are treated in the community, but there are still the doctor visits and the meds. Most adults probably DO NOT pay enough attention to their immunizations. It is now recommended that any adult, and particularly those who are around small children a lot, get one dose of Tdap vaccine to protect the kids from pertussis. If one was born before 1957, or has had two documented doses of live measles vaccine, or has had a positive titer for measles they are considered immune. People working in certain health fields have to show proof of immunization/immunity to hepatitis B, measles, mumps and rubella, and other diseases. Everyone should get a tetanus booster (contained in Td/Tdap) every 10 years. One of those boosters, as I said above, should be Tdap.



I dunno. She wrote a book. People believe all sorts of celebrities, Oprah, Bill Maher, etc. Why not Jenny?
Jenny McCarthy on Autism and Vaccines - TIME



OMG, the "immune system". This has become the replacement for the fascination with the GI system. Most people who invoke the immune system in these discussions have no idea how the immune system actually works. Not saying you, PoppySead, but we've seen people in these threads post that infants born to immunized mothers don't get any antibodies from their moms, that antibodies are somehow heritable, all kinds of utter nonsense.



Yes, it was common as a cold, but not as innocuous.
I was taking about Lymphoma and Leukemia, Lupus, chemo, things like that. I have no idea what you are referring to.
About money, doctors will lose money if there patients leave.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2015...wont-vaccinate

Last edited by PoppySead; 02-10-2015 at 02:07 PM.. Reason: stupid ipad
 
Old 02-10-2015, 02:08 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
13,124 posts, read 17,674,374 times
Reputation: 22501
this is really refreshing to see each and every one of us discussing this calmly instead of name calling like I have seen in other areas of this forum and we all are discussing our personal opinion when a lot of people cannot do that on cd especially . But just wanted to say this is the kind of discussion I like to see thank you all for keeping calm in this forum and could have turned very heated very quickly .
 
Old 02-10-2015, 02:17 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,025 posts, read 98,908,697 times
Reputation: 31466
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
Kids have a lot more than just Autism. Seizures, immunity related illnesses, all kinds of reasons some parents delay vaccines. Not everyone knows before either, some find out they are allergic after its first dose. So, things can happen that weigh on parents minds, its a hard job. I delayed my sons vaccines because they weren't sure if he was having seizures or it was Tourettes. At that time the Neuro said to wait but the family doc said its ok. You paint such a black and white picture. It's not just Jenny followers against pro vaxers.
There's no reason to avoid immunizations in an autistic child. Kids with stable seizure disorders can get vaccines. http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p4060.pdf See #7. Kids with known allergies to vaccine components, or a previous history of allergic reaction to a vaccine should not receive that particular vaccine; see #2 and 3. Of course there are lots of finer points of immunizations. This conversation is, I thought, about general immunization principals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
I was taking about Lymphoma and Leukemia, Lupus, chemo, things like that. I have no idea what you are referring to.
About money, doctors will lose money if there patients leave.
Pediatricians Pressured To Drop Parents Who Won't Vaccinate : Shots - Health News : NPR
I have no idea what you're referring to. If it's this:
Quote:
Same thing if someones kids die or get hurt from an allergic reaction or immune system issue from the shot.
and you're referring to lymphoma, leukemia and lupus, those things are not caused by vaccines. As I said earlier, a previous allergic reaction to a vaccine or allergy to a vaccine component is reason not to give a vaccine. It's different for each vaccine though. If you're allergic to eggs, you shouldn't (generally) get the flu vaccine, but you can get other non-egg grown vaccines. You can even get MMR. Ask the Experts about Measles, Mumps, and Rubella (MMR) Vaccines - CDC experts answer Q&As Most kids with chronic disease benefit from vaccines b/c they are more susceptible to illnesses, and because the chronic disease could become very hard to manage if they got sick. You seem to like to point out contraindications to immunization. They are few indeed, and most of us that give vaccines are well aware of them.
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