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Old 02-11-2015, 10:32 AM
 
8,541 posts, read 5,260,408 times
Reputation: 9100

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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
Yes, I think despite all our differences in America, that thought holds us together actually. It's what makes us different from any other country. One of my parents came here for that very reason. I'm very different from others here. With me, it's not whether it's good or bad to be this way, it's who we are regardless. I don't think it's a good idea to lose this common ground. It's better to be proud of who we are and realize why we allow these freedoms in the first place.

We keep forgeting this, and we are slowly losing our idealology. I think I need to be more active given the current climate so people don't blow their "freedom" ride over fear.
I agree with you. There are things that people do that I don't agree with but I would not try to take their right to do them away due to my personal values and or ethics. Freedom is very important.

 
Old 02-11-2015, 10:45 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,477 posts, read 26,078,274 times
Reputation: 26426
My prior comments in red.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
I said:"Summary of the student's argument: 'Sure she's teaching lies, but it's an easy course. So all is forgiven.' "

She's teaching a class, that involves bothsides so that people think, she isn't a doctor but a teacher. She's using the debate to make her class think outside the box. She gets her own kids vaccinated. But, now she's getting hunted because outside of the box is unacceptable in this climate. I think it's going to far. It's just a class and she's not teaching that it's true, just that it's thought to be true by someone else. Lot's of professors teach out of the box thinking, some have UFO classes, government conspiracy classes, don't take the class if you don't like it. You have the freedom to not take the class. This is a small, small amount of people compared to a large amount of people, why fire them?
There is no "both sides" to the science of vaccines. That is another anti-vax meme. She is teaching a science class. It is not a debate club. And the people complaining about her say she is not teaching the science, only the anti-vax nonsense. She does not even teach from a textbook - because there is no science textbook that she could use to teach what she does.

Quote:
I said: "She has no questions. She is just regurgitating all the anti-vax nonsense. She's teaching that watching too much TV causes autism, too."

She is showing all conspiracy in medicine, that's what that one class is about.
There is no conspiracy about vaccines. She is presenting only the standard anti-vax positions, including that vaccines (and TV!) cause autism.

Quote:
The nurse that comes to check on my homebound mom doesn't vaccinate from the flu, and openly says so. She was sent by the regular western hospital to help my mother. Should she be fired?
She should have a job that does not involve patient care, especially if she exposes herself to elderly people who may be at higher risk of complications from the flu.

Quote:
I said: "If a doctor were to treat everyone in his practice by bleeding him, should he be allowed to do so?"

Well yes if you have too much iron in your blood I hope you can find someone who does that because it helps. Western medicine uses it for iron overload.
What do you think accupunture is? Or cupping? Bloodletting is the concept of blood, life force and astrology, same thing as acupuncture and other Asian medicine. It is still practiced in Asia, and here it's practice with accupunture and cupping to draw up blood using needles and suction for the same purpose and is the same concept. Are people going to start firing anyone who practices Chinese medicine? Chiropracters? Is nobody allowed to do anything that doesn't agree with Western science now?
I'm Korean, and this is widely practiced there today, Dr.Makise Supplement Clinic|phlebotomy|
Should it not be allowed? It's not quackery in my home country, it's a valid choice. It's rate of success is the same as Western medicine.
Treating someone with iron overload is not treating everyone. Please re-read what I wrote.

If you believe in blood-letting, that's fine. However, most physicians would consider it quackery, and I would love to see a peer reviewed study showing "It's rate of success is the same as Western medicine" except for treating iron overload.

Quote:
I said: "Perhaps any doctor who does nor "believe" in vaccines should at a minimum have to re-take medical school courses on infectious disease and immunology."

So any doctor who doesn't believe has to be re trained? As if they didn't get it? Maybe they just disagree. All doctors have to believe the science on vaccines or they cannot work?
Any doctor who denies the science behind vaccines needs to be able to show why that science is wrong. If he cannot do so, he needs to go back and re-study the science. Sorry, though you may not accept it, the science is settled. The people who study vaccines know how they work, down to the molecular level.

Quote:
I said: "If "Dr. Bob" Sears (who had a patient that started a measles outbreak) believes his alternative vaccine schedule is fine and dandy, why does he not use that schedule for everyone and why does he have any unvaccinated patients? Surely he should be able to sell his alternative schedule to all his patients.

All he does is pander to the (unjustified) fear of vaccines whipped up by the anti-vax crowd."


Your concern surely isn't about spread of illness or health. Western doctors have large waiting rooms full of sick people spreading illness all the time, hospitals spread bacterial infections that are killing way more people than Measles has in 20 years. Western doctors kill people with bad advice, the wrong medicine, overlooking conditions, the facts are I could go on and on for hours on the amount of preventable death and injury our medical system and the science behind it kills or harms yearly in this country and others. You can't use that as an argument because it will fail in a big way and people will see through it. Good science kills all the time. That argument fails.
We are talking about vaccines. Whatever other deficiencies there may be in our health care system are irrelevant. Bringing them up is just a deflection from the topic at hand.

Quote:
But, you want anyone fired because they don't practice the CDC recommended vaccine route? Then this isn't about safety, or keeping people well or preventing the spread of disease. It's about conforming.
No, it's about reducing the risk that health care workers might make their patients sick.

Quote:
It's just a witch hunt on the latest hot topic. I'm afraid it's going to backfire. We should just stick to what works for the majority and stop making vaccines a debate. Most people would just not choose those few doctors if given the choice, take that choice away and you are going to have a larger problem on your hands. I don't like the approach, and I think it's a bad way to go.

If we didn't have so many harmed by our medical practices they wouldn't be looking at alternatives. I think what would help most is to clean up our own backyard. Then we'd gain the trust, not just get rid of all who don't believe like the majority do. That never works.

Naw, I don't like the new approach at all. I think it's more harmful then letting a few go. Nothing about our vaccine rate warrants this, being afraid that more won't vaccinate in the future doesn't warrant this, so far we have a growing vaccination rate without it.

Sorry, we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't think we will ever see eye to eye on it. But, I don't think I should be silenced because we disagree either. I think people should be informed about the science on vaccines, and given a choice. Not fired if they don't chose what people like you think is the best choice.

Anybody can harm you, that's not a valid argument or we would have to fire the entire medical system and all the scientists. Just doesn't fly with me. Sorry.
We do not have a "growing vaccination rate". Quite the contrary. That is the problem and that is why the infectious disease experts are concerned. You think the number of refusers is trivial and that we should just let herd immunity take care of them. But the number is not trivial and because they live in clusters, they destroy herd immunity in their communities.

Health care workers in direct patient care who refuse vaccines do so for the same reasons as people who are not health care workers - reasons not supported by science. I hold them to higher standard, though. Their refusal to vaccinate makes me question the quality of their education and their skills in their profession. If they are not going to be vaccinated they should not be allowed to have direct patient care responsibilities. They need a different job.

Other things can harm us is just another deflection. It's like saying that since many fewer people drown than are killed in car accidents that we should do nothing to reduce the number of people who drown.

P.S. Please use the multiquote feature.
 
Old 02-11-2015, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,477 posts, read 26,078,274 times
Reputation: 26426
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
I agree with you. There are things that people do that I don't agree with but I would not try to take their right to do them away due to my personal values and or ethics. Freedom is very important.
Please read Mark's post right above yours.
 
Old 02-11-2015, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
6,297 posts, read 3,474,966 times
Reputation: 14916
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
No, it's about reducing the risk that health care workers might make their patients sick.
It's also about making sure the hospital or clinic keeps running. Imagine an epidemic scenario where inpatient admissions are at record highs, clinics are overflowing with sick patients needing to be seen - and 20% of the hospital and clinic staff are home sick. NOT a pretty picture!
 
Old 02-11-2015, 10:58 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,477 posts, read 26,078,274 times
Reputation: 26426
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aredhel View Post
It's also about making sure the hospital or clinic keeps running. Imagine an epidemic scenario where inpatient admissions are at record highs, clinics are overflowing with sick patients needing to be seen - and 20% of the hospital and clinic staff are home sick. NOT a pretty picture!
True that!
 
Old 02-11-2015, 11:06 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,958 posts, read 98,776,620 times
Reputation: 31371
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
I wouldn't give my child the flu shot because the "science" behind it does not show that it works. I also would not get it because of how it interacts with one's immune system making one temporarily more susceptible to catching other sickness while it takes effects. Not to mention that every year the same people I know who get the flu vaccine end up getting the flu anyway. You think that's "cold", I think it's logical. Get over it.
You're wrong that the science does not show it works. You're the one who keeps saying there's a difference between research and science, yet you constantly post these "studies" that purport to show your POV. Anyone can find anything for that. You know so little about immunity that you thought babies born to vaccinated mothers didn't get antibodies from their mom; I was the one who had to do the internet search to show you that was untrue, b/c it was part of your belief system that supposedly trumps actual science.

Flu vaccines provide a measure of protection. I'm sure if your kid was the one on chemo you'd want those around her to do everything possible to prevent the child from getting sick. Perhaps the child would get flu anyway. Wouldn't you feel better if you'd done everything you could to prevent it?

Here is a link from "Immunize Colorado" that speaks to what I've just said.
* What Ifs and Fears are Welcome: Now is the Time to Rethink Vaccines
"One can only truly claim to be "well-informed and well-educated" on vaccines if they have studied years and years through actual academic programs (not Google) in the field of infectious diseases, immunology and/or epidemiology. If you have not, then no, you do not know more than experts in these fields who unanimously agree that vaccinating ourselves and our children is the best way to prevent death and complications from vaccine-preventable diseases. What the anti-vaccine crowd is actually armed with are conspiracy theories, anecdotes that they believe trump scientific evidence, all backed by nonsense found on sites like Mercola, Natural News, Health Impact News and other website based on pseudoscience and written by quacks."

Quote:
Originally Posted by bg7 View Post
Why not? Its apt.

The immune system fights disease. The immune system works great when it has "seen" the disease before. If you deny the immune system the opportunity to see the diseases beforehand - how are you not pro-disease?

The Taliban stopping people getting polio vaccinations in Northern Pakistan - that's pretty darn pro-polio, is it not?
Agreed, and thank you. I've decided the anti-vax people should start calling themselves what they really are, pro-disease. Isn't it better to be FOR something than against something?
 
Old 02-11-2015, 11:12 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,958 posts, read 98,776,620 times
Reputation: 31371
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
Sorry, but not everyone agrees with the mission, and I'm glad they don't, I don't. I think this whole issue is turning into great thread topic, heated facebook sayings and battling talk show ups for ratings. And I don't care about any of that. I can ignore that. But, when it comes to state or fed regulations, I care because I care about personal choice, freedom, and all that jazz. No offense meant by me caring about that, let's be clear. I'm sure you guys are nice people, but on this topic we just don't see eye to eye.
Quote:
Like I said, the actual nurse taking care of my mom doesn't believe the flu vaccine works, so she doesn't get it.
Quote:
Good, hopefully they homeschool as well since they are anti pro disease. It's telling that you think people are getting a "due" as if paybacks are productive. That's exactly why I'm on here trying to make sense out of this movement. The name calling, fear using, payback mentality concerns me.
I think there are too many mandates already, don't want anymore.
I'm an "acutal nurse" and 90% of my colleagues and I take the flu shot. You got one of the 10 percenters.

Your fear tactic about losing one's liberty if required to vaccinate concerns me.
 
Old 02-11-2015, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,401 posts, read 9,546,743 times
Reputation: 7421
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
My prior comments in red.



There is no "both sides" to the science of vaccines. That is another anti-vax meme. She is teaching a science class. It is not a debate club. And the people complaining about her say she is not teaching the science, only the anti-vax nonsense. She does not even teach from a textbook - because there is no science textbook that she could use to teach what she does.



There is no conspiracy about vaccines. She is presenting only the standard anti-vax positions, including that vaccines (and TV!) cause autism.



She should have a job that does not involve patient care, especially if she exposes herself to elderly people who may be at higher risk of complications from the flu.



Treating someone with iron overload is not treating everyone. Please re-read what I wrote.

If you believe in blood-letting, that's fine. However, most physicians would consider it quackery, and I would love to see a peer reviewed study showing "It's rate of success is the same as Western medicine" except for treating iron overload.



Any doctor who denies the science behind vaccines needs to be able to show why that science is wrong. If he cannot do so, he needs to go back and re-study the science. Sorry, though you may not accept it, the science is settled. The people who study vaccines know how they work, down to the molecular level.



We are talking about vaccines. Whatever other deficiencies there may be in our health care system are irrelevant. Bringing them up is just a deflection from the topic at hand.



No, it's about reducing the risk that health care workers might make their patients sick.



We do not have a "growing vaccination rate". Quite the contrary. That is the problem and that is why the infectious disease experts are concerned. You think the number of refusers is trivial and that we should just let herd immunity take care of them. But the number is not trivial and because they live in clusters, they destroy herd immunity in their communities.

Health care workers in direct patient care who refuse vaccines do so for the same reasons as people who are not health care workers - reasons not supported by science. I hold them to higher standard, though. Their refusal to vaccinate makes me question the quality of their education and their skills in their profession. If they are not going to be vaccinated they should not be allowed to have direct patient care responsibilities. They need a different job.

Other things can harm us is just another deflection. It's like saying that since many fewer people drown than are killed in car accidents that we should do nothing to reduce the number of people who drown.

P.S. Please use the multiquote feature.
Why would I use that? I didn't want to. I think it's rude to lump everyone one into one post and answer that way, like a list. Wow, you are a bit controlling. Feel free to use cd how you'd like and I will use the features I'd like.

Could you please clarify what you do because people on here are referring to you as a medical professional because you work in a doctors office. Please.
 
Old 02-11-2015, 11:26 AM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,401 posts, read 9,546,743 times
Reputation: 7421
Quote:
Originally Posted by FallsAngel View Post
I'm an "acutal nurse" and 90% of my colleagues and I take the flu shot. You got one of the 10 percenters.

Your fear tactic about losing one's liberty if required to vaccinate concerns me.
Good about the vaccinated nurses, and I dont mind if mine is not, no worries. Feel free to tell me how it concerns you. I'm open to that. What fear tactic got you upset that I used and we will start from there.

Last edited by PoppySead; 02-11-2015 at 11:30 AM.. Reason: clarification
 
Old 02-11-2015, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,958 posts, read 98,776,620 times
Reputation: 31371
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
Good about the vaccinated nurses, and I dont mind if mine is not, no worries. Feel free to tell me how it concerns you. I'm open to that. What fear tactic got you upset that I used and we will start from there.
I already told you what fear tactic I think you're using now. "Loss of freedom". markg91359 explained that well.

It concerns me that the unvaccinated nurse is more likely to get the flu and pass it on to your mother.
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