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Old 02-12-2015, 03:36 PM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
5,242 posts, read 3,393,710 times
Reputation: 8783

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlandochuck1 View Post
Second amendment supporters don't believe it's anyone's business if they own a gun or not. Most would not even participate in such a poll.
This data is dependent on who chooses to participate.
Of the people who answered, where do they live? Rural or urban makes a huge difference. How old, men or women? How many people, were there enough that the outcome really represents all of America?
Just too many unknowns for this poll to be taken as the truth.
The FBI keeps track of how many background checks are submitted by gun dealers. While not every bc means a gun sale, it also doesn't mean only one gun was sold for each bc. The FBI says these bc's are the best way to keep track of gun sales.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nic...month_year.pdf

So which has more credibility? Hard data compiled by the FBI? Or an ambiguous poll?
Those FBI stats aren't telling us anything about households. We have a larger population now so that could be some of it. We have people that feel the need to stock up on weapons because Obama is president so it could be people that already own one weapon buying 2 or 3 more. There are also more states requiring background checks so that could be an explanation.

All that tells us is that there are more transactions requiring background checks, not who's doing them, whether they're a pre-existing gun owners or not.

The gallup poll is pretty accurate, they've been in the business for 80 years now and they've asked the same question over a period of 50 years which means we have good consistent data.

Polls can be wrong but it's usually on the margins of 5 points higher or lower. They are very rarely wrong on the order of 20-30 points. Ie: they are wrong sometimes on political polls but that's because the races are close - within 5 points, so it's possible to predict the wrong winner. They are rarely wrong by double or triple that, especially when there are multiple polls asking the same question, which we have on this gun question.

If it's showing that only 40% of households have a gun in them, that means that the percentage of households with them is probably between 35% and 45%. It's very unlikely the true number is 70% or something.

It makes sense - guns are an expensive luxury item and probably not the highest priority purchase for every household given our economic situation. We also have a society that is more urban and suburban vs. rural now compared to 1960. In a rural area, a gun is probably a much higher priority purchase because you need to shoot rattlesnakes or coyotes or whatever. Rural areas have been depopulating for the last 30 years as people move to the metro areas where jobs are. In a metro area it's less necessary - more of a last ditch emergency option when it comes to security or something people use purely for sport. With limited funds I would prioritize other security measures for my house before a gun since property crime is much more likely to occur when the occupants are gone. Having a gun for a sporting purpose means you have the funds to engage in a relatively expensive past-time.

Last edited by redguard57; 02-12-2015 at 03:46 PM..
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Old 02-12-2015, 06:15 PM
 
3,217 posts, read 1,631,407 times
Reputation: 1840
It's never been estimated that over 50% of households own a firearm. NICS checks grew by 20% between 2012 and2013. I find it hard to believe that this jump is only from current owners stockpiling. I am a national us practical shooting assn competitor. I also teach CCW classes to qualify folks for carry licenses. I attend the shot show annually which is the firearm industry's trade show, this is the exact type of stuff that is discussed. Needless to say I am around gun owners everyday.
I can give you first hand observations of the following.....
The shooting sports has grown recently exponentially. There are many new shooters at every match, especially women. The USPSA organization has almost doubled in the past few years. Same for IDPA matches... International Defensive Pistol Assn.
In the past 5 years, each year my CCW classes have doubled each year, and almost all are new gun owners. I have colleagues across the country that have witnessed similar growth. That's why in the past three years CCW licenses across the country have grown from 8 million to over 11 million.

Btw... Federal background checks for new purchases of guns were mandated in 1998 with the Brady handgun violence prevention act, so there has been no increase of states that do NICS checks.

Last edited by Orlandochuck1; 02-12-2015 at 06:25 PM..
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Old 02-12-2015, 07:30 PM
 
Location: Long Island, NY
186 posts, read 147,241 times
Reputation: 283
"guns are an expensive luxury item"


"Having a gun for a sporting purpose means you have the funds to engage in a relatively expensive past-time"




A simple bolt action .22 cal rifle and 500 rounds will cost a lot less than the bar tab for a bunch of left wing liberal socialists sitting around and slobbering on themselves about how they are going to save the world from guns.
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Old 02-13-2015, 03:38 AM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
5,242 posts, read 3,393,710 times
Reputation: 8783
Well if we're trading anecdotes, I'm the only gun owner among my peers and they think I'm a bit of a nut for having it, especially the one I've got. My wife hates the thing.

It makes sense that if you're involved in the business of sport shooting and CCW licensing - then it seems to you that almost everyone has one.

If women are growing in sport shooting.... does that mean they came from a formerly gun-free household? Or do their husbands/boyfriends/fathers etc... have guns and now they have one? So I think the term household is significant here. Multiple firms show the same general percentage of households ranging from 34% to 47%:

Self-Reported Gun Ownership in U.S. Is Highest Since 1993

Gallup has shown a 5 point increase - fairly significant.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/10/us...anted=all&_r=0

The demographics and politics of gun-owning households | Pew Research Center

It was interesting to me that there are pretty big racial, geographic and gender variances. The explanation is that the rise of female headed and single-person households - both constituencies that are less likely to buy guns - is behind the decline in household gun ownership percentage which makes sense.

There are indications that it's current gun owners buying more guns responsible for the increase in raw sales.

Analysis: Fewer U.S. gun owners own more guns - CNN.com

Now, there is very little hard data because the NRA & gun lobby does not want the government to know that much about who owns what guns where, so the government does not commission surveys of it in the census, etc... the best we have are those commercial and private surveys.

Even The Blaze, while it questions the GSS, seems accpeting of the Gallup findings.

Has Gun Ownership in American Homes Really Decreased This Dramatically? | TheBlaze.com

I very seriously doubt, though, that if multiple surveys are showing it in the ~40% of household range, that it's truly 60-70%. I might believe 50% but surveys are typically not THAT far off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlandochuck1 View Post
It's never been estimated that over 50% of households own a firearm. NICS checks grew by 20% between 2012 and2013. I find it hard to believe that this jump is only from current owners stockpiling. I am a national us practical shooting assn competitor. I also teach CCW classes to qualify folks for carry licenses. I attend the shot show annually which is the firearm industry's trade show, this is the exact type of stuff that is discussed. Needless to say I am around gun owners everyday.
I can give you first hand observations of the following.....
The shooting sports has grown recently exponentially. There are many new shooters at every match, especially women. The USPSA organization has almost doubled in the past few years. Same for IDPA matches... International Defensive Pistol Assn.
In the past 5 years, each year my CCW classes have doubled each year, and almost all are new gun owners. I have colleagues across the country that have witnessed similar growth. That's why in the past three years CCW licenses across the country have grown from 8 million to over 11 million.

Btw... Federal background checks for new purchases of guns were mandated in 1998 with the Brady handgun violence prevention act, so there has been no increase of states that do NICS checks.
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Old 02-13-2015, 03:48 AM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
5,242 posts, read 3,393,710 times
Reputation: 8783
Quote:
Originally Posted by LIHR View Post
"guns are an expensive luxury item"


"Having a gun for a sporting purpose means you have the funds to engage in a relatively expensive past-time"




A simple bolt action .22 cal rifle and 500 rounds will cost a lot less than the bar tab for a bunch of left wing liberal socialists sitting around and slobbering on themselves about how they are going to save the world from guns.
I did a quick search on Cabela's website and they run for about $200 at the cheapest. Decent ones $400-500. Then you add the case. Not super expensive but not cheap either for something that you're not going to use every day. Then there are range fees which depend on your location (mine are cheap, but more in urban areas). Not the most expensive choice of sport but not the cheapest either.
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Old 02-13-2015, 05:39 AM
 
Location: Long Island, NY
186 posts, read 147,241 times
Reputation: 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
I did a quick search on Cabela's website and they run for about $200 at the cheapest. Decent ones $400-500. Then you add the case. Not super expensive but not cheap either for something that you're not going to use every day. Then there are range fees which depend on your location (mine are cheap, but more in urban areas). Not the most expensive choice of sport but not the cheapest either.

Originally you made it to be a "an expensive luxury item"


Go to any local gun shop and ask for a basic .22 rifle for sport target shooting. They will probably show you a dozen rifles on consignment for cheap. I even have an older Winchester bolt action .22 rifle (good condition) that I'll sell for 100 bucks and I'll even through in 500 rounds.


Just like anything else in this world, you have the Hyundai model or you can have the Maserti model.



Now back to my question, can any of you left wing liberals answer why you are attacking law abiding Americans exercising their 2nd Amendment Right while you sip your wine and Bourbon supporting an industry that kills approx 250 each day?
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Old 02-13-2015, 07:21 AM
 
9,058 posts, read 5,653,666 times
Reputation: 5255
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlandochuck1 View Post
It's never been estimated that over 50% of households own a firearm. NICS checks grew by 20% between 2012 and2013. I find it hard to believe that this jump is only from current owners stockpiling. I am a national us practical shooting assn competitor. I also teach CCW classes to qualify folks for carry licenses. I attend the shot show annually which is the firearm industry's trade show, this is the exact type of stuff that is discussed. Needless to say I am around gun owners everyday.
I can give you first hand observations of the following.....
The shooting sports has grown recently exponentially. There are many new shooters at every match, especially women. The USPSA organization has almost doubled in the past few years. Same for IDPA matches... International Defensive Pistol Assn.
In the past 5 years, each year my CCW classes have doubled each year, and almost all are new gun owners. I have colleagues across the country that have witnessed similar growth. That's why in the past three years CCW licenses across the country have grown from 8 million to over 11 million.

Btw... Federal background checks for new purchases of guns were mandated in 1998 with the Brady handgun violence prevention act, so there has been no increase of states that do NICS checks.
Not sure if you know who Jana Reeves is but I feel she is doing an awesome job of raising awareness of women in competitive firearms competitions.
Just brought that up because I see how involved into the sport you are. I see her on FB quite a bit.
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Old 02-13-2015, 07:32 AM
 
9,058 posts, read 5,653,666 times
Reputation: 5255
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
Well if we're trading anecdotes, I'm the only gun owner among my peers and they think I'm a bit of a nut for having it, especially the one I've got. My wife hates the thing.

It makes sense that if you're involved in the business of sport shooting and CCW licensing - then it seems to you that almost everyone has one.

If women are growing in sport shooting.... does that mean they came from a formerly gun-free household? Or do their husbands/boyfriends/fathers etc... have guns and now they have one? So I think the term household is significant here. Multiple firms show the same general percentage of households ranging from 34% to 47%:

Self-Reported Gun Ownership in U.S. Is Highest Since 1993

Gallup has shown a 5 point increase - fairly significant.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/10/us...anted=all&_r=0

The demographics and politics of gun-owning households | Pew Research Center

It was interesting to me that there are pretty big racial, geographic and gender variances. The explanation is that the rise of female headed and single-person households - both constituencies that are less likely to buy guns - is behind the decline in household gun ownership percentage which makes sense.

There are indications that it's current gun owners buying more guns responsible for the increase in raw sales.

Analysis: Fewer U.S. gun owners own more guns - CNN.com

Now, there is very little hard data because the NRA & gun lobby does not want the government to know that much about who owns what guns where, so the government does not commission surveys of it in the census, etc... the best we have are those commercial and private surveys.

Even The Blaze, while it questions the GSS, seems accpeting of the Gallup findings.

Has Gun Ownership in American Homes Really Decreased This Dramatically? | TheBlaze.com

I very seriously doubt, though, that if multiple surveys are showing it in the ~40% of household range, that it's truly 60-70%. I might believe 50% but surveys are typically not THAT far off.

Here's the thing with all those articles claiming that firearms ownership is down. They are based off of the same couple of polls that were completed in 2010. So let's just say they were accurate, well now it's 2015 and much has changed in our society since those polls were done.
There has been roughly 12-13 "mass" shootings since then, if you really look at the timeline before that , it doesn't seem like much more but I feel the media , and the more widely publicized anit firearms movements has really gotten people to think "i'd better buy one now before I can't" type of thinking.
I know I got lambasted before for saying this but in my circle of the world people I had no idea of having an interest in firearms reached out to me to help them purchase their first ones and in some cases also applied for their CPL permits. I know my little circle of the world means nothing but then again in might be indicitive of what the rest of the population is going thru .. who knows.

[SIZE=3]http://www.gunfaq.org/2013/03/four-decade-decline-in-gun-ownership/[/SIZE]


[SIZE=3]http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/10/jim-barrett/mythbusting-gun-ownership-decline-u-s/[/SIZE]
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Old 02-13-2015, 11:38 AM
 
3,217 posts, read 1,631,407 times
Reputation: 1840
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarabchuck View Post
Not sure if you know who Jana Reeves is but I feel she is doing an awesome job of raising awareness of women in competitive firearms competitions.
Just brought that up because I see how involved into the sport you are. I see her on FB quite a bit.
Jana Reeves is also known as Ms Battleborn on social media. I have seen her in person but we have never spoken. She is a facebook friend of mine too. She has really improved her game in the past few years. She also is a great spokesperson for the shooting sports.
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Old 02-13-2015, 11:43 AM
 
3,217 posts, read 1,631,407 times
Reputation: 1840
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarabchuck View Post
Here's the thing with all those articles claiming that firearms ownership is down. They are based off of the same couple of polls that were completed in 2010. So let's just say they were accurate, well now it's 2015 and much has changed in our society since those polls were done.
There has been roughly 12-13 "mass" shootings since then, if you really look at the timeline before that , it doesn't seem like much more but I feel the media , and the more widely publicized anit firearms movements has really gotten people to think "i'd better buy one now before I can't" type of thinking.
I know I got lambasted before for saying this but in my circle of the world people I had no idea of having an interest in firearms reached out to me to help them purchase their first ones and in some cases also applied for their CPL permits. I know my little circle of the world means nothing but then again in might be indicitive of what the rest of the population is going thru .. who knows.

[SIZE=3]http://www.gunfaq.org/2013/03/four-decade-decline-in-gun-ownership/[/SIZE]


[SIZE=3]http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/10/jim-barrett/mythbusting-gun-ownership-decline-u-s/[/SIZE]
I can tell you this has been my experience too. There are so many people that have come to me to get thier carry license and have told me they never ever expected to own a gun just a few years ago, and now they are getting a CCW.
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