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Old 02-13-2015, 01:09 PM
 
Location: Middle of nowhere
19,428 posts, read 9,752,402 times
Reputation: 7535

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Quote:
Originally Posted by loriinwa View Post
Yes.

The Torah states:

Leviticus 18:22

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination.

That is a pretty straightforward statement. And those who believe that the Torah, or the Old Testament (for Christians) was divinely inspired and reflects the actual words of God, do not believe in current reinterpretations by individuals with personal reasons to find a different meaning within them.
Do you also try to ban red lobster? How about BLTs? Do you separate yourself from men during your menses?

No?

Then quit trying to force others to follow the laws of a book YOU don't even follow.
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Old 02-13-2015, 01:24 PM
 
920 posts, read 477,171 times
Reputation: 638
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlcockatoo View Post
Alright, here's the real truth (using only 'intellectual' evidence). In Western history, the stance towards LGBT marriage has varied, even if for most of its Christian history did place a rigid position on what constitutes as marriage. Prior to the spread of Christianity of Europe, many groups, including the Celtic nations (at one point in history covering most of the continent) accepted homosexuality. Parts of the Middle East and China operated in the same way. Furthermore, while there were considerable variations in opinion/customs, ancient Greece was mostly tolerant of LGBT equality. In ancient Greece and in ancient Rome, same-sex 'marriages' were allowed. It was not until Christianity became the official religion that same-sex marriage was abolished, setting the stage for the next several centuries.

In other parts of the world, this was a completely foreign idea. Many of the indigenous nations of North America fully embraced LGBT partnerships, including the 'two spirit' philosophy. European hatred of homosexuality and the idea of same-sex couples was one of many 'justifications' of their destruction of entire nations. In many parts of south Asia and the South Pacific, same-sex couples held an equal position in society until the relatively recent spread of Christianity. In many parts they still do.

In any case we should not look to 'normalcy' as a good thing when it results in so much needless suffering. People everywhere are beginning to challenge this. If you are so concerned with Western culture, look to all the Western nations that have already legalised same-sex marriage in the past ten-fifteen years. The LGBT 'liberation movement' or whatever has existed for centuries, much like feminist and racial-equality movements. Just because those movements were suppressed does not mean that it was 'natural'.

Assigning a single purpose to marriage is inherently flawed in that it boxes it in and limits it potential anyway.
Yes, that is true, homosexuality was practiced in those cultures, but let's tell the whole story.

The main form of homosexual interaction in Greece was pederasty, a custom practiced mostly among the upperclasses, in which an older man would make a young freeboy his sex partner, and become his mentor. This was regulated by the State as an institution. The practice of pederasty is mentioned in Homer's Illiad, and is evidenced to have existed at least 4500 yearsago in ancient Egypt.

In China, open sexual expression was expanded under the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644 A.D.), but increasing moral disorder, and invasion by warriors who captured Peking in 1644, establishing the Qing Dynasty, worked to somewhat morally awaken China, and resulted in laws for moral reform.

In 1679 extensive legislation was written and confirmed in the Qing code of 1740, which made the abduction and rape of boys under twelve a capital crime. (How regressive /sarc)

Despite these reforms, later some Qing rulers are said to have engaged in homosexual relationships, and China saw a resurgence of homosexuality. Even during the reign of Kang Xi a contemporary writer wrote that "it is considered bad taste not to have singing boys around when inviting guests for dinner."Art began to abandon its discrete nature in relation to sexual expression,and began to make the sexual act explicit.

Among the Aztecs, “Sodomy was virtually universal, involving even children as young as six. Cortez also found sodomy to be widespread among the Aztecs, and admonished them to give it up – along with human sacrifice and cannibalism.

Should we now embrace pederasty because there is historical evidence that it was practices in many other cultures historically?
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Old 02-13-2015, 01:25 PM
 
920 posts, read 477,171 times
Reputation: 638
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjrose View Post
Do you also try to ban red lobster? How about BLTs? Do you separate yourself from men during your menses?

No?

Then quit trying to force others to follow the laws of a book YOU don't even follow.
Straw man arguments don't somehow lend credence to your arguments. And what is the basis for your assumption as whether or not I follow the laws of the Torah?
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Old 02-13-2015, 01:25 PM
 
672 posts, read 583,152 times
Reputation: 1979
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjrose View Post
Do you also try to ban red lobster? How about BLTs? Do you separate yourself from men during your menses?

No?

Then quit trying to force others to follow the laws of a book YOU don't even follow.
I went to Red Lobster with my husband while I had my period and ordered a BLT with a side of shellfish, AND I wore clothes made of mixed fibers. Then my husband heard a voice commanding him to sacrifice our firstborn son, which we willfully declined to do.

Livin' on the edge!
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Old 02-13-2015, 01:27 PM
 
920 posts, read 477,171 times
Reputation: 638
Quote:
Originally Posted by latetotheparty View Post
will I ever get my frozen treats??
You sure you can handle the brain freeze?
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Old 02-13-2015, 01:28 PM
 
672 posts, read 583,152 times
Reputation: 1979
Quote:
Originally Posted by loriinwa View Post
Yes, that is true, homosexuality was practiced in those cultures, but let's tell the whole story.

The main form of homosexual interaction in Greece was pederasty, a custom practiced mostly among the upperclasses, in which an older man would make a young freeboy his sex partner, and become his mentor. This was regulated by the State as an institution. The practice of pederasty is mentioned in Homer's Illiad, and is evidenced to have existed at least 4500 yearsago in ancient Egypt.

In China, open sexual expression was expanded under the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644 A.D.), but increasing moral disorder, and invasion by warriors who captured Peking in 1644, establishing the Qing Dynasty, worked to somewhat morally awaken China, and resulted in laws for moral reform.

In 1679 extensive legislation was written and confirmed in the Qing code of 1740, which made the abduction and rape of boys under twelve a capital crime. (How regressive /sarc)

Despite these reforms, later some Qing rulers are said to have engaged in homosexual relationships, and China saw a resurgence of homosexuality. Even during the reign of Kang Xi a contemporary writer wrote that "it is considered bad taste not to have singing boys around when inviting guests for dinner."Art began to abandon its discrete nature in relation to sexual expression,and began to make the sexual act explicit.

Among the Aztecs, “Sodomy was virtually universal, involving even children as young as six. Cortez also found sodomy to be widespread among the Aztecs, and admonished them to give it up – along with human sacrifice and cannibalism.

Should we now embrace pederasty because there is historical evidence that it was practices in many other cultures historically?

Did you just plagarize History of homosexuality - Conservapedia without giving them credit?

Why, yes, you sure did
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Old 02-13-2015, 01:28 PM
 
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
9,286 posts, read 16,139,171 times
Reputation: 11272
Quote:
Originally Posted by loriinwa View Post
You sure you can handle the brain freeze?

won't be a problem if ice cream is the only thing offered.......
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Old 02-13-2015, 01:29 PM
 
Location: Middle of nowhere
19,428 posts, read 9,752,402 times
Reputation: 7535
Quote:
Originally Posted by loriinwa View Post
Straw man arguments don't somehow lend credence to your arguments. And what is the basis for your assumption as whether or not I follow the laws of the Torah?
You want me to live by one verse in a book. It's kind of hypocritical if you don't live by the same books rules.
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Old 02-13-2015, 01:32 PM
 
920 posts, read 477,171 times
Reputation: 638
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrett View Post
On the first count, Islam, Catholicism (birth control), etc.
Those issues in Islam do not come from the Quran, they are laws from the Imams. You realize that in the Middle East, Islam is a system of government separate from the Muslim faith. I don't know what birth control within the Catholic faith has to do with denying services to women, but I am pretty sure the Catholicism has never held a foundational belief about sacrificing virgins.
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Old 02-13-2015, 01:35 PM
 
29,843 posts, read 15,225,740 times
Reputation: 15593
Quote:
Originally Posted by loriinwa View Post
Yes.

The Torah states:

Leviticus 18:22

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination.

That is a pretty straightforward statement. And those who believe that the Torah, or the Old Testament (for Christians) was divinely inspired and reflects the actual words of God, do not believe in current reinterpretations by individuals with personal reasons to find a different meaning within them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by loriinwa View Post
Slavery was legal, too. Just because it is a law does not make it right or moral.
And slavery is quite nicely backed by that very same Leviticus, so now we have a bit of a conundrum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviticus 25:44-46
44 Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly
Perhaps Leviticus or Biblical tradition or "it's been done that way for centuries" is just not a very good guide in ethical manners?

At least the New Testament has no such nonsense in it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephesians
Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.
Dammit, Paul!
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