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Old 02-14-2015, 09:34 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
2,540 posts, read 3,084,564 times
Reputation: 6721

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Reneh63.

You are a typical person who has all the ideas, but NO practical experience.

Go back and re read the scenario that I wrote about.....

My partner and I were faced with a situation in a second floor bedroom of a house, where the wife was holding a10 inch knife to the throat of her 6 year old daughter. The woman had all ready killed her 10 year old son, we passed his body on the ground floor hall of the house, so we knew that we were facing a killer. Her Husband was later found dead in the garage.


Now, YOU are the one making the decisions....... WHAT do you do, and how long will you wait to find out IF she is going to slice the kid's throat?? A minute, 30 minutes, a hour, a day ? Come on smart guy, DO SOMETHING, NOW.

Want to know what happened ? She died , of a single gun shot wound to the forehead. Her daughter lived, and as far as I know she is still alive today, 17 years later. Upon investigation by the Ontario Special Investigations Unit, we were both cleared of any wrong doing. A justifiable use of deadly force, under Canadian law.

Real enough for you ?

Jim B. In Toronto.
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Old 02-15-2015, 02:32 AM
 
172 posts, read 169,363 times
Reputation: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geneyus View Post
We also have a policy stating we are a "+1 department". If you use fists, we're using pepper spray. If you use a knife, we're using a gun. Our policy allows one step above the level of force used by a criminal until it gets to deadly force. Don't like it? Don't break the law.
Can't handle dealing with mentally people without using their actions as a pretext/excuse for shooting them?
Don't become a cop.

Cops in places where cops don't even carry guns deal with mentally ill people carrying knives as routinely as American cops, yet they seem to find alternative ways to handle it other than gunning them down.

Are there situations where shooting someone with a knife is totally justified? Without a doubt. yes.

Do cops need massively better training on how to de-escalate situations? Yes. Unfortunately, far too many of the people in your profession believe your 'job' is to "+1" every situation to the point that you can wring a tenuously justifiable shoot out of some poor mentally person .

This article is a good read.
This Is How UK Police Stop Someone With A Knife - The Daily Banter

Cops with big egoes, crap training and lots of guns take lives when lives could have been saved.
Yes, we still have that ass-backwards cowboy culture that views human life cheaply and fetishizes authority so shooting a mentally ill person having a psychiatric event is preferable in the American zeitgeist to de-escalating and disabling them some other way (because deep down, a horrifyingly large number of people would probably just as soon put them in gas chambers if that option were available), yet the rest of the world seems to get by dealing with mentally ill people and knives without "standing their ground" and shooting them.
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Old 02-15-2015, 06:09 AM
 
Location: Massachusetts
10,032 posts, read 6,902,138 times
Reputation: 4207
Quote:
Originally Posted by canadian citizen View Post
Reneh63.

You are a typical person who has all the ideas, but NO practical experience.

Go back and re read the scenario that I wrote about.....

My partner and I were faced with a situation in a second floor bedroom of a house, where the wife was holding a10 inch knife to the throat of her 6 year old daughter. The woman had all ready killed her 10 year old son, we passed his body on the ground floor hall of the house, so we knew that we were facing a killer. Her Husband was later found dead in the garage.


Now, YOU are the one making the decisions....... WHAT do you do, and how long will you wait to find out IF she is going to slice the kid's throat?? A minute, 30 minutes, a hour, a day ? Come on smart guy, DO SOMETHING, NOW.

Want to know what happened ? She died , of a single gun shot wound to the forehead. Her daughter lived, and as far as I know she is still alive today, 17 years later. Upon investigation by the Ontario Special Investigations Unit, we were both cleared of any wrong doing. A justifiable use of deadly force, under Canadian law.

Real enough for you ?

Jim B. In Toronto.
Surely a story like that must have seen widespread news coverage. Link?
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Old 02-15-2015, 06:13 AM
 
Location: Massachusetts
10,032 posts, read 6,902,138 times
Reputation: 4207
Quote:
Originally Posted by StAugustine View Post
Can't handle dealing with mentally people without using their actions as a pretext/excuse for shooting them?
Don't become a cop.

Cops in places where cops don't even carry guns deal with mentally ill people carrying knives as routinely as American cops, yet they seem to find alternative ways to handle it other than gunning them down.

Are there situations where shooting someone with a knife is totally justified? Without a doubt. yes.

Do cops need massively better training on how to de-escalate situations? Yes. Unfortunately, far too many of the people in your profession believe your 'job' is to "+1" every situation to the point that you can wring a tenuously justifiable shoot out of some poor mentally person .

This article is a good read.
This Is How UK Police Stop Someone With A Knife - The Daily Banter

Cops with big egoes, crap training and lots of guns take lives when lives could have been saved.
Yes, we still have that ass-backwards cowboy culture that views human life cheaply and fetishizes authority so shooting a mentally ill person having a psychiatric event is preferable in the American zeitgeist to de-escalating and disabling them some other way (because deep down, a horrifyingly large number of people would probably just as soon put them in gas chambers if that option were available), yet the rest of the world seems to get by dealing with mentally ill people and knives without "standing their ground" and shooting them.
Hey now....lighten up. As long as these heroes return home safely at the end of their shift it's all good. Who are you to question their actions?
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Old 02-15-2015, 07:21 AM
 
10,479 posts, read 7,580,853 times
Reputation: 18520
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fargobound View Post
Play stupid games win stupid prizes
Love this!
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Old 02-15-2015, 07:21 AM
 
Location: Windsor, Ontario, Canada
11,269 posts, read 12,559,401 times
Reputation: 13422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Roma View Post
Surely a story like that must have seen widespread news coverage. Link?

I tried to find it, but I have to have a active Toronto Library card to access digitized newspapers from 1997-98.

Really not hard to believe the story though. Not exactly a unique situation.
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Old 02-15-2015, 08:30 AM
 
Location: Massachusetts
10,032 posts, read 6,902,138 times
Reputation: 4207
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnatomicflux View Post
I tried to find it, but I have to have a active Toronto Library card to access digitized newspapers from 1997-98.

Really not hard to believe the story though. Not exactly a unique situation.

It's not a unique situation at all but with all of the internet commandos out there and the way the poster I was addressing described the situation it has a familiar smell to it.
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Old 02-15-2015, 10:09 AM
 
Location: South Carolina
1,615 posts, read 2,852,945 times
Reputation: 1910
Quote:
Originally Posted by StAugustine View Post
Can't handle dealing with mentally people without using their actions as a pretext/excuse for shooting them?
Don't become a cop.

Cops in places where cops don't even carry guns deal with mentally ill people carrying knives as routinely as American cops, yet they seem to find alternative ways to handle it other than gunning them down.

Are there situations where shooting someone with a knife is totally justified? Without a doubt. yes.

Do cops need massively better training on how to de-escalate situations? Yes. Unfortunately, far too many of the people in your profession believe your 'job' is to "+1" every situation to the point that you can wring a tenuously justifiable shoot out of some poor mentally person .

This article is a good read.
This Is How UK Police Stop Someone With A Knife - The Daily Banter

Cops with big egoes, crap training and lots of guns take lives when lives could have been saved.
Yes, we still have that ass-backwards cowboy culture that views human life cheaply and fetishizes authority so shooting a mentally ill person having a psychiatric event is preferable in the American zeitgeist to de-escalating and disabling them some other way (because deep down, a horrifyingly large number of people would probably just as soon put them in gas chambers if that option were available), yet the rest of the world seems to get by dealing with mentally ill people and knives without "standing their ground" and shooting them.
The officer that walked up to the knife-wielding man is incredibly stupid and incredibly lucky that the taser was effective. I've seen several situations where both taser barbs don't enter the person, and no shock is administered. It is even more likely when the suspect is wearing a lot of clothes, like this man was. If a barb didn't stick in this situation, the officer would have been in close contact with someone holding a butcher knife while holding an ineffective taser. The second thing I noticed about this situation, is that the suspect really wasn't interested in attacking the police. He looked like he was threatening to hurt himself, and he made a pathetic attempt to scare the officer back before he was tased. If he wanted to stab the officer, he most likely could have.
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Old 02-15-2015, 02:15 PM
 
172 posts, read 169,363 times
Reputation: 327
The thing is, though, that's just one example. Everywhere on earth has knives, yet not everywhere on earth allows cops to carry guns.

Cops in places where they don't have guns encounter crazies with knives presumably as routinely as they do anywhere else, yet their methodologies for dealing with them are different than shoot them, then some inane and predictable talking-points memo about use of deadly force. If I recall correctly, TASERS have a higher 1 stop shot ratio than most firearm calibers, so its not like "well, what if it doesn't work!" justifies use of the deadlier method over the less deadly method since the deadlier method is more likely to yield the less desirable outcome (which is instantly disabling).

Other societies are OK with "everyone get back" and giving a wide berth, using LTL options and insisting that part of the job description of cops is dealing with these people without killing. Increasingly, in our culture, the latter part is forgotten as we've naively permitted cops to create this deluded narrative that they are 'heroes' and that they're being paid to go out into the world as nothing more than exemplars of heroism whose sole purpose and intent is to defend their honor by any means necessary.
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Old 02-15-2015, 03:00 PM
 
Location: Forks,WA
3,012 posts, read 3,009,371 times
Reputation: 1539
So it's not just the Unites States that's allowing militarization of police
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