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Old 02-20-2015, 05:21 AM
 
Location: Earth, a nice neighborhood in the Milky Way
2,534 posts, read 1,604,138 times
Reputation: 1088

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Gringo View Post
I just don't understand what's so hard about getting the address right. Especially now with GPS equipment in the cruisers.
Have you ever noticed a GPS system directing you to the incorrect location? I have. My particular address, put into any GPS service that uses the same database as whatever it is that Bing uses, directs people to another city altogether. If I ever have to make a 911 call and they rely on GPS to get to my house, there are going to be problems at both locations.
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Old 02-20-2015, 06:01 AM
 
Location: Upstate NY
35,467 posts, read 10,488,468 times
Reputation: 33567
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Thomas J View Post
I was one of the people who brought that up. Another question I have was the victims garage door open or closed? Did he open the garage door gun in hand and the cops were in the drive way? Did he leave it open and go to bed? I feel like there are more questions than answers.
Those questions are certainly valid. As is the remaining question surrounding the reason for the inane title of this thread--entirely unsupported, BTW, by either the facts or even media headlines.

Allow me: This thread title is an example of what you get when people feel rather than think. As with headlines, emotional thread titles quickly give themselves away.
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Old 02-20-2015, 07:27 AM
 
1,562 posts, read 1,137,679 times
Reputation: 2686
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delahanty View Post
Those questions are certainly valid. As is the remaining question surrounding the reason for the inane title of this thread--entirely unsupported, BTW, by either the facts or even media headlines.
This is true. Whatever one believes about who was negligent and to what degree, this was clearly not a murder.
We do need to be clear about the facts here. This was not a case of police simply coming upon someone with a gun and shooting too quickly. Mr. Waller was in his attached garage with the door open. The officers, responding to the wrong address with no emergency lights on(largely irrelevant IMO), approached him and ordered him to put his gun down. Mr. Waller was reluctant to do so. This could've been out of fear, but more likely because he felt, as a law-abiding citizen in his own home, he had every right to keep his gun and resented the officer's manner(lights in his eyes, barking orders, etc.) Either way, after some discussion, Mr. Waller set his gun down on top of his car. When the other officer reached for it, Mr. Waller scrambled to grab it first. That shows me that while he was willing to put the gun down, he was not willing to let them have it. This prompted Hoeppner to fire 7 shots.
Was Mr. Waller being unreasonable? Perhaps. But let's consider the officers' actions. Was it reasonable to think Mr. Waller was a burglary suspect? Was it reasonable to feel threatened by him? Did they diffuse the situation as they are trained to do, or did they escalate it? I think they showed a real lack of judgment.
This appears to be, as is so often the case in these types of incidents, a battle of egos more than anything. "This is MY castle" versus "I'M a police officer".
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Old 02-20-2015, 07:59 AM
 
25,976 posts, read 32,984,687 times
Reputation: 32158
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mysterious Benefactor View Post
This is true. Whatever one believes about who was negligent and to what degree, this was clearly not a murder.
We do need to be clear about the facts here. This was not a case of police simply coming upon someone with a gun and shooting too quickly. Mr. Waller was in his attached garage with the door open. The officers, responding to the wrong address with no emergency lights on(largely irrelevant IMO), approached him and ordered him to put his gun down. Mr. Waller was reluctant to do so. This could've been out of fear, but more likely because he felt, as a law-abiding citizen in his own home, he had every right to keep his gun and resented the officer's manner(lights in his eyes, barking orders, etc.) Either way, after some discussion, Mr. Waller set his gun down on top of his car. When the other officer reached for it, Mr. Waller scrambled to grab it first. That shows me that while he was willing to put the gun down, he was not willing to let them have it. This prompted Hoeppner to fire 7 shots.
Was Mr. Waller being unreasonable? Perhaps. But let's consider the officers' actions. Was it reasonable to think Mr. Waller was a burglary suspect? Was it reasonable to feel threatened by him? Did they diffuse the situation as they are trained to do, or did they escalate it? I think they showed a real lack of judgment.
This appears to be, as is so often the case in these types of incidents, a battle of egos more than anything. "This is MY castle" versus "I'M a police officer".
I can't even pretend to really know what happened there. I mean, if that really was how it went down, and I put myself in that cop's place...well, if a guy races to grab his gun when clearly I am proceeding to go get it...do I simply wait and see if he shoots me? Maybe it was more clear-cut, maybe the cop did have other options (a taser?), I don't know. But I wish it had not gone down the way that it did. This is why it is so SO important for people to understand that you do NOT, in any way, show any signs of being in assault-mode during interactions with police.
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Old 02-20-2015, 08:26 AM
 
Location: zooland 1
3,744 posts, read 3,417,812 times
Reputation: 5516
I have never used force on anyone who was compliant...
I have never needed to use deadly force on someone who left any other realistic real world.. apply right now technique that could protect me or a citizen

I do not have the luxury or desire to allow a citizen to figure out what they are going to do with a deadly weapon at hand...

I do not come to a call with the desire to shoot someone or use force on someone... I want to do my job and leave... hopefully with a bad man in the back seat

Citizens choose how and when they want act around me... my responses are generally reactive...

None of us know for any certainty what was going on in his mind... we can make inferences only

Most citizens when put into similar training scenarios use force on a frequent basis... much more so than police officers

I haven't been stopped in years.. but when I was I gave the policeman walking up on me clear compliance... clear verbalizations... and complied with what they wanted... not even what I thought and knew they might like because of a contact I might like

Tragedy yes...
Alzheimer's.. dementia... authoritarian ... stupid.. these are just words that none of us will know about a human being... although I imagine numerous people have been interviewed about this man at this point

Calls are rarely what they get dispatched as... because dispacters doing the best they can to discern what is going on... rely on information from callers... which is notoriously wrong... a burglary in one location can easily be a neighbor dispute upon arrival... we are constantly used by "warring" people against others they have a beef with... swatting is also a very popular game played by idiots... we get to be in the middle and filter everything

If you have a gun in your hand or reach for it in non compliance then you have made the decision how you want me to react...
As far as less than lethal alternatives... taser for example.. ever tty to draw and fire it accurately at night under stress instantaneously?
Doesn't happen
Sad... more than one tragedy here...

Don't react poorly...
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Old 02-20-2015, 09:30 AM
 
1,562 posts, read 1,137,679 times
Reputation: 2686
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChessieMom View Post
I can't even pretend to really know what happened there. I mean, if that really was how it went down, and I put myself in that cop's place...well, if a guy races to grab his gun when clearly I am proceeding to go get it...do I simply wait and see if he shoots me? Maybe it was more clear-cut, maybe the cop did have other options (a taser?), I don't know. But I wish it had not gone down the way that it did. This is why it is so SO important for people to understand that you do NOT, in any way, show any signs of being in assault-mode during interactions with police.
I understand what you're saying. As I mentioned earlier, cops don't always know what they're walking into and they're in real fear of being harmed. I get that. All too often though, it seems that the manner in which a lot of cops approach people is the cause of the problem. Honestly, this was a 72 year-old man alone in his own garage, not a burglary suspect. Shouldn't that have been obvious almost immediately? How must he have been dressed? Was it really necessary to take his gun from him? They're treating this old man like a criminal, and for what reason? This is where I think it comes down to a question of judgment. And again, if you read the statements from Hoeppner, I think they reveal an "Us versus Them" mentality which is not an effective mindset when dealing with the public.
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Old 02-20-2015, 10:39 AM
eok
 
6,684 posts, read 3,168,903 times
Reputation: 8464
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChessieMom View Post
You have to got be kidding.
All those people who died because a cop thought they might be armed with a real gun -- those people aren't kidding, because dead people don't kid.
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Old 02-20-2015, 11:46 AM
 
1,562 posts, read 1,137,679 times
Reputation: 2686
Quote:
Originally Posted by notmeofficer View Post
I have never used force on anyone who was compliant...
I have never needed to use deadly force on someone who left any other realistic real world.. apply right now technique that could protect me or a citizen

I do not have the luxury or desire to allow a citizen to figure out what they are going to do with a deadly weapon at hand...

I do not come to a call with the desire to shoot someone or use force on someone... I want to do my job and leave... hopefully with a bad man in the back seat

Citizens choose how and when they want act around me... my responses are generally reactive...

None of us know for any certainty what was going on in his mind... we can make inferences only

Most citizens when put into similar training scenarios use force on a frequent basis... much more so than police officers

I haven't been stopped in years.. but when I was I gave the policeman walking up on me clear compliance... clear verbalizations... and complied with what they wanted... not even what I thought and knew they might like because of a contact I might like

Tragedy yes...
Alzheimer's.. dementia... authoritarian ... stupid.. these are just words that none of us will know about a human being... although I imagine numerous people have been interviewed about this man at this point

Calls are rarely what they get dispatched as... because dispacters doing the best they can to discern what is going on... rely on information from callers... which is notoriously wrong... a burglary in one location can easily be a neighbor dispute upon arrival... we are constantly used by "warring" people against others they have a beef with... swatting is also a very popular game played by idiots... we get to be in the middle and filter everything

If you have a gun in your hand or reach for it in non compliance then you have made the decision how you want me to react...
As far as less than lethal alternatives... taser for example.. ever tty to draw and fire it accurately at night under stress instantaneously?
Doesn't happen
Sad... more than one tragedy here...

Don't react poorly...
This post illustrates my point. Notice the bolded sentences.
How "citizens" react to you will most often be directly related to how you approach them. They're humans with real emotions, not robots who simply flick the "compliance" or "non-compliance" switches on. This statement is very revealing and unfortunately all too common among cops. You apparently believe that you have no control/responsibility for how someone responds to you. Someone pinned a badge on you so you're free to treat people however you wish, and if they don't respond as you demand, well that's their problem, right?

Of course we don't know with certainty what's going through anyone's mind. So as a cop, I'll just use that as justification for treating everyone like a lunatic who wants to kill me. And if they don't do exactly as I say when I say it, or they don't call me "Sir", that just reinforces my belief that they must be a lunatic, so that's how I'm going to handle them.
No, it's called 'using reasonable judgment' and handling situations accordingly. Had it been two other officers with a different mindset, this shooting never would have occurred.
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Old 02-20-2015, 04:58 PM
 
Location: Staten Island
1,653 posts, read 1,793,662 times
Reputation: 2353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian71 View Post
Actually, no, it's not, because grand juries almost never indict cops, no matter how heinous the crime they committed.
That's not accurate. the grand jury just last week indicated a rookie NYPD officer for shooting an unarmed black guy in a dark staircase in the projects. Similar situation the cop heard a noise, panicked and just started shooting blindly in the dark. It was one shot but it ricochet off the wall and hit the guy and he died. That cop effed up bad REAL BAD and he has got to be dealt with.
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Old 02-20-2015, 06:35 PM
 
Location: zooland 1
3,744 posts, read 3,417,812 times
Reputation: 5516
Wow...
Come on down... expert
Become a reserve... volunteer. ...

Any opinion in the incident is mere speculation ...get the grand jury transcript

Your opinion on how officers respond and what is in my mind and how I can get someone to act... and how I should react according to you is ignorant of facts... policies.. procedures... and common sense...

But.. thank you for your expertise

Last edited by notmeofficer; 02-20-2015 at 06:46 PM..
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