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Old 02-22-2015, 02:27 PM
 
421 posts, read 309,883 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus View Post
It is; how many years and resources has the US dumped into the region? How many years did thousands of US troops occupy Iraq? How many years did thousands of US troops occupy Afghanistan and are still there? How many years has the US spent billions of dollars to maintain a military presence in the region?

Hundreds of billions of dollars, numerous combat engagements, and yet an organization like the ISIS just pops up. So yes, bombing and military action is basically unproductive, unless you think the ISIS is a result of success?
By that reasoning we should have let Hitler do as he pleased because we already had 1 world war.
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Old 02-22-2015, 02:46 PM
 
Location: Jewel Lake (Sagle) Idaho
25,388 posts, read 16,324,529 times
Reputation: 14107
Quote:
Originally Posted by lexdiamondz1902 View Post
The fact that the West de-stabilised the region in the first place is the reason why ISIS exists. ISIS has followers because the West is the ideological boogeyman that they want to fight. ISIS was able to get a foothold because the USA and UK were the ones who removed Saddam and allowed them to take over much of Iraq.
That's a little..OK, a lot, simplistic. But not necessarily wrong. Saddam ruled Iraq by brutally suppressing opposition, by slaughtering anyone that opposed him. Not to mention by waging war with his neighboring countries. He may have understood more about the culture than we did. I think our belief was that they are like us, or other basically civilized people. That the people were being suppressed by a brutal dictator, and that if he was eliminated, the people and culture would embrace freedom and democracy. But Iraq, and most of the ME, is much too primitive and tribal for that to happen. They still embrace primitive, local, tribal traditions and have been killing over the most trivial differences in a silly superstition for 1000 years. We should have known better...and most of us actually have learned something in the last 12 years.

Hence, stay the hell out. Nothing and no one worth an American life.
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Old 02-22-2015, 02:47 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,268 posts, read 1,377,172 times
Reputation: 3737
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus View Post
It is; how many years and resources has the US dumped into the region? How many years did thousands of US troops occupy Iraq? How many years did thousands of US troops occupy Afghanistan and are still there? How many years has the US spent billions of dollars to maintain a military presence in the region?

Hundreds of billions of dollars, numerous combat engagements, and yet an organization like the ISIS just pops up. So yes, bombing and military action is basically unproductive, unless you think the ISIS is a result of success?
So-called ISIS's relative success is largely a result of US failure - namely the Iraq fiasco. The American led invasion - the removing of Saddam Hussein was a gift to Daesh. Saddam was a bulwark against the Islamists. America not only didn't save its powder - it helped facilitate a worse situation. Well done Bush, well done Blair.
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Old 02-22-2015, 02:53 PM
 
Location: Jewel Lake (Sagle) Idaho
25,388 posts, read 16,324,529 times
Reputation: 14107
Quote:
Originally Posted by modernist1 View Post
So-called ISIS's relative success is largely a result of US failure - namely the Iraq fiasco. The American led invasion - the removing of Saddam Hussein was a gift to Daesh. Saddam was a bulwark against the Islamists. America not only didn't save its powder - it helped facilitate a worse situation. Well done Bush, well done Blair.
The rise of ISIS comes back to the culture. Like I said, ISIS as a whole is outnumbered 1000:1 with just the citizens of Iraq. If the people actually opposed ISIS, there would be no ISIS. Instead, you have many that are just too lazy and apathetic to do a thing about them. A military that is too cowardly to stand up and fight, and instead throws down their weapons and runs away.

And now, we see Obama repeating the same failed policy, sacrificing the lives of American servicemen to protect the people of the ME from those animals. People that refuse to stand up and do so themselves, and in fact many who may support ISIS. Many people have learned from that mistake...sadly our leaders (of both parties) don't seem to have learned a d*mn thing.

No one worth an American life. We need to quit trying to help the rest of the world.

By the way....we did exactly the same thing with Libya as you claim we did in Iraq. We refuse to learn from our mistakes.
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Old 02-22-2015, 03:58 PM
 
12,718 posts, read 12,113,877 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by portlandphi View Post
By that reasoning we should have let Hitler do as he pleased because we already had 1 world war.
No, not even a comparable situation; Hitler was a state actor, acting within the accepted norms which states are use to, like uniformed military, entering into negotiations, etc. The ISIS has none of this, they are not even close to being organized like Germany was.

Also, WW1 was a distinctly different conflict than WW2, whereas the ISIS is jsut the continuation of the same issues the region has had for decades, if not for hundreds of years. The concept of the ISIS and their actions are not new at all.
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Old 02-22-2015, 04:21 PM
 
1,031 posts, read 661,111 times
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As a whole the Nazi`s were scarier as they had a doctrine backed up byan efficient German war machine, while ISIS, though stomach churning barbarians, are corrupt, spoilt, criminals who have a blood-lust that will turn in on itself.
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Old 02-22-2015, 05:11 PM
 
726 posts, read 665,295 times
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Well They're surrounded on all sides by the sea and countries that are hostile to them. They've gotta get their supplies from somewhere so why can't they just be put under siege conditions until they can't continue? Blow up their power and water supplies, cut off all roads they'd be supplied from and wait?
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Old 02-22-2015, 06:39 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,268 posts, read 1,377,172 times
Reputation: 3737
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
The rise of ISIS comes back to the culture. Like I said, ISIS as a whole is outnumbered 1000:1 with just the citizens of Iraq. If the people actually opposed ISIS, there would be no ISIS. Instead, you have many that are just too lazy and apathetic to do a thing about them. A military that is too cowardly to stand up and fight, and instead throws down their weapons and runs away.

And now, we see Obama repeating the same failed policy, sacrificing the lives of American servicemen to protect the people of the ME from those animals. People that refuse to stand up and do so themselves, and in fact many who may support ISIS. Many people have learned from that mistake...sadly our leaders (of both parties) don't seem to have learned a d*mn thing.

No one worth an American life. We need to quit trying to help the rest of the world.

By the way....we did exactly the same thing with Libya as you claim we did in Iraq. We refuse to learn from our mistakes.
Concur on Libya, blithely removing Gaddafi - big mistake.
I'm not sure complete disengagement is possible - though I understand the sentiment. I'd actually argue the opposite - I'd like to see a real coalition (never mind that absurdly touted 'coalition of the willing') - the US, UK, France, Germany, Australia, Canada (even) Japan take Daesh to task. But the will has to be there.
Apart from Iraq being the wrong damn war, the American people - other than service personnel (and their families) were asked to do very little - apart from go shopping. I'd like to see a Rosie the Riveter mentality, where everyone has the chance to pitch in, war bonds etc. to pay for the engagement. Again, I guess it'd be a hard sell.
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Old 02-22-2015, 07:20 PM
 
695 posts, read 694,284 times
Reputation: 909
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
That's a little..OK, a lot, simplistic. But not necessarily wrong. Saddam ruled Iraq by brutally suppressing opposition, by slaughtering anyone that opposed him. Not to mention by waging war with his neighboring countries. He may have understood more about the culture than we did. I think our belief was that they are like us, or other basically civilized people. That the people were being suppressed by a brutal dictator, and that if he was eliminated, the people and culture would embrace freedom and democracy. But Iraq, and most of the ME, is much too primitive and tribal for that to happen. They still embrace primitive, local, tribal traditions and have been killing over the most trivial differences in a silly superstition for 1000 years. We should have known better...and most of us actually have learned something in the last 12 years.

Hence, stay the hell out. Nothing and no one worth an American life.
This isn't a culture thing. Most of the Middle East, like Africa and South Asia is made up of countries that were arbitrarily drawn on maps and have had no relationship to the political and ethnic dynamics in place at the time. Countries like Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, India and a whole host of others realistically speaking shouldn't even exist, and have no basis in reality. Saddam ruled Iraq via suppression because Iraq was a political concept thought up by the British, those people had no business even being in the same country.

As for them embracing freedom and democracy, that's impossible to do overnight when the majority (Shia) were oppressed by the minority (Sunni) and then suddenly the former oppressors find themselves outnumbered. It's even less likely when outside agents are funding various factions and providing them with weapons to kill each other. You're the one looking at this simplistically by assuming that the problem boils down to culture.

As for calling the Middle East uncivilised...the Middle East was civilised millennia before the West was. What you're seeing now is the effect of colonialism and Western intervention which disregarded balances of power that have literally existed for thousands of years. This has nothing to do with civilisation...Europe didn't manage to get over its own tribalism until the 1990's. The IRA was still setting off bombs in N. Ireland until 1998. There was still ethnic cleansing in Kosovo until 1999. The Basques were bombing trains in Spain in the 2000s. The US still has problems with race and racial tensions. Ethnic conflict is a universally HUMAN trait.
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Old 02-22-2015, 07:23 PM
 
695 posts, read 694,284 times
Reputation: 909
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
The rise of ISIS comes back to the culture. Like I said, ISIS as a whole is outnumbered 1000:1 with just the citizens of Iraq. If the people actually opposed ISIS, there would be no ISIS. Instead, you have many that are just too lazy and apathetic to do a thing about them. A military that is too cowardly to stand up and fight, and instead throws down their weapons and runs away.

And now, we see Obama repeating the same failed policy, sacrificing the lives of American servicemen to protect the people of the ME from those animals. People that refuse to stand up and do so themselves, and in fact many who may support ISIS. Many people have learned from that mistake...sadly our leaders (of both parties) don't seem to have learned a d*mn thing.

No one worth an American life. We need to quit trying to help the rest of the world.

By the way....we did exactly the same thing with Libya as you claim we did in Iraq. We refuse to learn from our mistakes.
No army ever attacked a whole country at once so the whole 1000:1 ratio is a worthless piece of information. What really happens is that 30,000 troops attacks a village or town maybe 10x that size and mostly unarmed, and basically sweeps the whole thing. Wash, rinse and repeat and eventually you have control over large swaths of the country. AS for people being too lazy or apathetic, these are people who have been through CONSTANT war for the last 15 years, both from Saddam, from the US, from Al-Qaeda and now from ISIL, none of which are conflicts that they had ANY role in starting.

You're being an armchair general from the comfort of your home in the USA. Sorry but your opinion
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