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Old 02-22-2015, 09:17 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,272 posts, read 1,385,685 times
Reputation: 3753

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Another point about so-called ISIS or DAESH is since they love to use the infidel's technology is to remind them that every time they use it they demonstrate their inferiority. Use a US social platform? They lose. Use a European cell phone? They lose. Use a computer designed in Silicon Valley? They lose. Tool around in that Japanese pick up truck? They lose.
If they want to be uncompromised, let them create their own things - till then they can climb to the top of the highest mountain and shout as loud as they can.
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Old 02-22-2015, 09:44 PM
 
Location: Jewel Lake (Sagle) Idaho
25,397 posts, read 16,416,627 times
Reputation: 14136
Quote:
Originally Posted by lexdiamondz1902 View Post
No army ever attacked a whole country at once so the whole 1000:1 ratio is a worthless piece of information. What really happens is that 30,000 troops attacks a village or town maybe 10x that size and mostly unarmed, and basically sweeps the whole thing. Wash, rinse and repeat and eventually you have control over large swaths of the country. AS for people being too lazy or apathetic, these are people who have been through CONSTANT war for the last 15 years, both from Saddam, from the US, from Al-Qaeda and now from ISIL, none of which are conflicts that they had ANY role in starting.

You're being an armchair general from the comfort of your home in the USA. Sorry but your opinion
Facts and math are hardly worthless. You are presenting an opinion with nothing to support it. Do you think we should continue the mistakes of the past, to send more young Americans to fight and die, trying, uselessly, to bring peace to the ME? Why? What is there that is worth a single American life?

The people of Iraq, the government of Iraq, not to mention our president and the public want us out. We are out (or were nearly so) and should stay out. Whatever happens to the ME isn't our problem. As far as being through "constant war", so what? Doesn't that mean there are people with the experience to stand up to a relative handful of ignorant thugs with Kalashnikovs?

The modern day whining from the left is the problems of the ME are due to America, or due to "colonialism", or due to the UN. BS. The problems in the ME are due to the culture and people of the ME. IF we had anything to do with "creating the problem", please tell me, how does us getting involved now, and fighting in another tribal war in the ME, correct for that? We give them a common enemy to hate on...and kill. Sorry, I see no reason to sacrifice more American lives over them.
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Old 02-22-2015, 10:40 PM
 
421 posts, read 310,972 times
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OkaY, I may be wrong here as I am not someone who keeps up on details of war, but that the choice of whether or not to get involved was not really a choice. Once terrorism came to U.S. we could no longer ignore it.
You don't stop cleaning your house because it will just get dirty again. Sh[t happens. Clean it up.
Change Strategies, Boots on, Boots Off...we are not going to keep strong by letting a cancer like terrorism go unchecked.
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Old 02-22-2015, 11:36 PM
 
14,790 posts, read 13,533,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian71 View Post
Good luck herding them into a circle. That's the problem -- this isn't the same as bombing a country into submission. You can't stop a terrorist group by bombing it. There's no legal political entity (like a government) that can offer up a surrender for the entire group -- if 75% of them are ready to give in but 25% want to keep fighting, they'll keep fighting, and they'll bring in more recruits to help them.

The most that can realistically be done is to cut off their funding and access to weapons. We can freeze bank accounts and single out the people who aid and abet. Another thing we can do is turn public opinion against them. Unfortunately, that's kind of hard to do in a part of the world where America and the West are seen as imperialist aggressors -- and often with good reason. This is, in large part, a monster we helped create. You think we'd learn our lesson. The best way to prevent ISIS-type groups from proliferating is to stop creating the situations that give rise to them in the first place.
I think public opinion is mostly, against them.

The west did play its role... a defunct iraqi army, a country that was 70% shia, taken over by a extremist sunni group... what a mess.

BBC News - Iraqi army 'had 50,000 ghost troops' on payroll
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Old 02-22-2015, 11:44 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,272 posts, read 1,385,685 times
Reputation: 3753
On a slight tangent - Australia tightens noose to fight terrorism.

BBC News - Australia to toughen citizenship laws to combat terror
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Old 02-23-2015, 04:22 AM
 
695 posts, read 697,455 times
Reputation: 909
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
Facts and math are hardly worthless. You are presenting an opinion with nothing to support it. Do you think we should continue the mistakes of the past, to send more young Americans to fight and die, trying, uselessly, to bring peace to the ME? Why? What is there that is worth a single American life?

The people of Iraq, the government of Iraq, not to mention our president and the public want us out. We are out (or were nearly so) and should stay out. Whatever happens to the ME isn't our problem. As far as being through "constant war", so what? Doesn't that mean there are people with the experience to stand up to a relative handful of ignorant thugs with Kalashnikovs?

The modern day whining from the left is the problems of the ME are due to America, or due to "colonialism", or due to the UN. BS. The problems in the ME are due to the culture and people of the ME. IF we had anything to do with "creating the problem", please tell me, how does us getting involved now, and fighting in another tribal war in the ME, correct for that? We give them a common enemy to hate on...and kill. Sorry, I see no reason to sacrifice more American lives over them.
You repeating that line over and over again doesn't make it so. You can't just ignore history because it's inconvenient for you. Furthermore, this isn't a primitive "tribal war" between paleolithic humans as you'd like to believe...these people were writing poetry and doing maths and science when your ancestors where wearing loincloths and wandering the forest worshipping rocks.

As for what to do about ISIS...you don't need to put troops on the ground to make a difference. Other countries like Jordan are taking an active role in fighting ISIS and need help with funding and weapons. Someone is funding ISIL...find out where the money's coming from and cut them off. There's literally dozens of things you could do besides sit around with your thumb up your behind saying "nope, not my problem" when your government caused the problem in the first place.

Last edited by lexdiamondz1902; 02-23-2015 at 04:46 AM..
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Old 02-23-2015, 12:14 PM
 
3,497 posts, read 1,715,745 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioJB View Post
ISIS wont be eradicated with air strikes alone. Troops on the ground are needed. Except this time it should not be American ground troops. Time for countries in the region to step up and use their fighters. Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and others need to quit depending on the American military. Our young men and women have sacrificed enough.

And our so-called NATO ally Italy that ISIS has recently threatened wouldn't even be able to defend itself properly if ISIS is able to carry out it's threat (which I doubt).
There already are troops on the ground. Peshmerga, Iraqi army, Syrian army, Syrian rebels, Libyan army, and on the margins: Lebanese army, Hezbollah, and Turkish army. Others are providing logistics and air support, including Jordan, Egypt, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Iran. ISIS will eventually be ground out by this motley crue that surrounds them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
That's a little..OK, a lot, simplistic. But not necessarily wrong. Saddam ruled Iraq by brutally suppressing opposition, by slaughtering anyone that opposed him. Not to mention by waging war with his neighboring countries. He may have understood more about the culture than we did. I think our belief was that they are like us, or other basically civilized people. That the people were being suppressed by a brutal dictator, and that if he was eliminated, the people and culture would embrace freedom and democracy. But Iraq, and most of the ME, is much too primitive and tribal for that to happen. They still embrace primitive, local, tribal traditions and have been killing over the most trivial differences in a silly superstition for 1000 years. We should have known better...and most of us actually have learned something in the last 12 years.

Hence, stay the hell out. Nothing and no one worth an American life.
It's certainly true that the fall of Saddam's government led to the rise of ISIS. I would add to that the de-Baathification and disbanding of the Iraqi army in the immediate aftermath of the invasion, which put thousands of trained Sunni soldiers out of work. And the rise of the Maliki government, which made little effort to share power with Iraq's Sunnis.

The truth is that the people who formed ISIS were part of the Iraqi elite under Saddam, who were cast out into the streets when he was overthrown, and who were marginalized under Iraq's Shia government. So I don't agree at all with your view that these were people Saddam was suppressing, not to mention the tribalism/primitivism rant.

This is one of the consequences of an ill-considered war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus View Post
No, not even a comparable situation; Hitler was a state actor, acting within the accepted norms which states are use to, like uniformed military, entering into negotiations, etc. The ISIS has none of this, they are not even close to being organized like Germany was.

Also, WW1 was a distinctly different conflict than WW2, whereas the ISIS is jsut the continuation of the same issues the region has had for decades, if not for hundreds of years. The concept of the ISIS and their actions are not new at all.
The difference is that Germany was a powerful state. Islamic State has some trappings of a state, though it is unrecognized. More importantly, it is weak. It no longer has any foreign patrons (there are rumblings that Saudi Arabia and Turkey were arming/training ISIS fighters until int'l opinion turned against ISIS). It's military is not on par with those of its enemies. It's economy and administration are unsophisticated and isolated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lexdiamondz1902 View Post
You repeating that line over and over again doesn't make it so. You can't just ignore history because it's inconvenient for you. Furthermore, this isn't a primitive "tribal war" between paleolithic humans as you'd like to believe...these people were writing poetry and doing maths and science when your ancestors where wearing loincloths and wandering the forest worshipping rocks.

As for what to do about ISIS...you don't need to put troops on the ground to make a difference. Other countries like Jordan are taking an active role in fighting ISIS and need help with funding and weapons. Someone is funding ISIL...find out where the money's coming from and cut them off. There's literally dozens of things you could do besides sit around with your thumb up your behind saying "nope, not my problem" when your government caused the problem in the first place.
Agreed. I think that we, and our partners, are doing those things. Any assistance Turkey and Saudi Arabia were providing appear to be cut off. Continued funding appears to be through illicit and isolated sources, which means it is limited.
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Old 02-23-2015, 12:16 PM
 
Location: LEAVING CD
22,947 posts, read 21,591,434 times
Reputation: 15436
Quote:
Originally Posted by lexdiamondz1902 View Post
You repeating that line over and over again doesn't make it so. You can't just ignore history because it's inconvenient for you. Furthermore, this isn't a primitive "tribal war" between paleolithic humans as you'd like to believe...these people were writing poetry and doing maths and science when your ancestors where wearing loincloths and wandering the forest worshipping rocks.

As for what to do about ISIS...you don't need to put troops on the ground to make a difference. Other countries like Jordan are taking an active role in fighting ISIS and need help with funding and weapons. Someone is funding ISIL...find out where the money's coming from and cut them off. There's literally dozens of things you could do besides sit around with your thumb up your behind saying "nope, not my problem" when your government caused the problem in the first place.
Don't you think that the dictators and despots who are described as "brutal" and "horrible" were mistakenly taken out of power over the years because "we" as a nation look at what "they" do as "uncivilized"? It is "uncivilized" by our standards but more importantly not by theirs. To the people in the M.E. it's just same old-same old and what they are used to, kind of like a dog that's beaten frequently. It's all they know.

Now with all the screams in the news about how horrible these countries are treating their people, movie stars and rock stars holding fund raiser after fund raiser tugging at the heart strings telling us we need to stop this evil barbarism what is the general public left to think?
Oh, that Saddam, what an evil S.O.B. we need to stop him and free his people... Except they neither wanted him gone nor want to be freed it seems.
Best intentions gone awry or a massive conspiracy...
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Old 02-23-2015, 01:52 PM
 
Location: Jewel Lake (Sagle) Idaho
25,397 posts, read 16,416,627 times
Reputation: 14136
Quote:
Originally Posted by lexdiamondz1902 View Post
You repeating that line over and over again doesn't make it so. You can't just ignore history because it's inconvenient for you. Furthermore, this isn't a primitive "tribal war" between paleolithic humans as you'd like to believe...these people were writing poetry and doing maths and science when your ancestors where wearing loincloths and wandering the forest worshipping rocks.

As for what to do about ISIS...you don't need to put troops on the ground to make a difference. Other countries like Jordan are taking an active role in fighting ISIS and need help with funding and weapons. Someone is funding ISIL...find out where the money's coming from and cut them off. There's literally dozens of things you could do besides sit around with your thumb up your behind saying "nope, not my problem" when your government caused the problem in the first place.
The people of the ME were killing each other long before American got involved. Saddam was as much or more of a problem than ISIS, with an estimated 1.5 million people killed (wars/slaughter of political opponents). Just the same...it wasn't our problem and yes, going to war in '03 was a mistake. And certainly not worth an American life to try to "correct". Much like Daffy Duck in Libya or Assad in Syria. Our getting involved accomplishes little...except getting young Americans killed. Oh, and giving the people in the area a common target to hate on. As far as "cutting off the money", is there any indication that the US government or businesses are doing business with ISIS? I do agree that we should be keeping a close eye on Islamic front groups (CAIR and mosques) in this country, both to ensure that they aren't raising money that supports these animals, as well as to ensure that they aren't promoting terrorist acts in this country.

Give the people of the ME a chance to sort things out without outside intervention screwing things up again. Either they succeed...or not. Either way, again, not our problem.
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Old 02-23-2015, 06:03 PM
 
695 posts, read 697,455 times
Reputation: 909
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
The people of the ME were killing each other long before American got involved. Saddam was as much or more of a problem than ISIS, with an estimated 1.5 million people killed (wars/slaughter of political opponents). Just the same...it wasn't our problem and yes, going to war in '03 was a mistake. And certainly not worth an American life to try to "correct". Much like Daffy Duck in Libya or Assad in Syria. Our getting involved accomplishes little...except getting young Americans killed. Oh, and giving the people in the area a common target to hate on. As far as "cutting off the money", is there any indication that the US government or businesses are doing business with ISIS? I do agree that we should be keeping a close eye on Islamic front groups (CAIR and mosques) in this country, both to ensure that they aren't raising money that supports these animals, as well as to ensure that they aren't promoting terrorist acts in this country.

Give the people of the ME a chance to sort things out without outside intervention screwing things up again. Either they succeed...or not. Either way, again, not our problem.
When Saddam killed those 1,5 million people he did so with weapons he got from the US. The Iran-Iraq war was basically a proxy war between the US and Iran, and many of the chemical weapons Saddam used against Kurds, Kuwaitis and Shiites were American weapons. The ruler of Iran prior to the establishment of the current Islamist regime was a despot supported by the US and the UK.

So again, many of these problems can be traced back to interventions made by the West.
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