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Old 03-03-2015, 04:14 PM
 
Location: southern kansas
7,742 posts, read 5,191,949 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Effielin View Post
When some lazy bum doesn't spay or neuter his dog, and a litter of puppies no one wants is born, thats when a dog dies in a shelter... AKC breeders have nothing to do with it. Most breeders have waiting lists and sell them for good money, they don't dump them at the local shelter.. but if you know of a poodle some breeder wants to dump, I will be glad to take it before a rescue group gets it.
Indirectly, they do have something to do with it. A person who wants a dog can buy one from a breeder, or adopt from a shelter. Choosing to buy eliminates the chance for a home for the shelter dog, and if no one else comes along, that dog could be put to sleep because the shelter is full and that dog has run out of time. There are more dogs and cats alive in this country than there are good homes for, so we have overflowing shelter populations. Breeders add to those overall numbers.
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Old 03-03-2015, 04:25 PM
 
Location: Central Florida
2,063 posts, read 1,744,189 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spencgr View Post
what specific breed/ condition are you referencing?
Oh I have mentioned some but the one that comes to mind again is the German Shepherd
Here is a link showing the famous German Shepherd Rin Tin Tin compared to a modern German Shepherd with its badly sloping back and low hind area some call half frog dog style.

http://whowhatwhy.org/wp-content/upl...014/04/212.jpg

Another issue is that AKC dogs cannot be fixed which may lead to some unwanted pregnancies. Inbreeding of dogs makes them less healthy and is a frequent in situation with purebred dogs, it is much less likely to happen with hybrid mutt type dogs since they do not have to look a certain way.

But the main problem I have is the health issues creating by these changes bred into dogs over time

Pugs faces too pushed in causing breathing problems and oveheating extreme tail curl can cause paralysis
English Bulldog cannot mate without medical help and doesnt live on average more than 6 years.
Dachshund legs now so low to the ground their bodies almost scrape the floor while back and neck is longer
Basset hound is lower with shorter hind legs structure, vertebra problems too much skin droopy eyes cause health problems


The Cruel Cost of Extreme Dog Breeding - WhoWhatWhy

https://dogbehaviorscience.wordpress...d-improvement/
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Old 03-03-2015, 04:43 PM
 
8,051 posts, read 3,798,229 times
Reputation: 10478
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanguardisle View Post
I have watched dog shows on tv because the dogs are cute and to see all the different breeds but I really feel if I were to adopt a dog it would not be from a breeder . I would choose a dog who needed a home not a fancy dog with papers.
Would you feel the same way if the shelters charged purebred breeder prices, but used the excess money to help other rescued dogs?

I ask because many people wish to help dogs in shelters at least in part, because it is much cheaper to get a dog this way.
For instance when I was running a county dog shelter, we had a very nice Boxer come in, and he went past the date the owner could come to claim him. Even though we had a family who was on a waiting list for him, a high end muckety muck came in and said he wanted him.
When I explained the dog was already spoken for, and he could get an equal or better dog through a local breeder of Boxers, he basically said why would I pay big bucks to get a dog when I can get this one practically for free. Keep in mind this guy was making 6 figures back in the early 1990's. Clearly his motivation was to get a breeder quality dog at shelter prices. Then he could also parade around saying he rescued dogs like some do as a badge of righteousness.
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Old 03-03-2015, 04:50 PM
 
Location: Central Florida
2,063 posts, read 1,744,189 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector1 View Post
Would you feel the same way if the shelters charged purebred breeder prices, but used the excess money to help other rescued dogs?

I ask because many people wish to help dogs in shelters at least in part, because it is much cheaper to get a dog this way.
For instance when I was running a county dog shelter, we had a very nice Boxer come in, and he went past the date the owner could come to claim him. Even though we had a family who was on a waiting list for him, a high end muckety muck came in and said he wanted him.
When I explained the dog was already spoken for, and he could get an equal or better dog through a local breeder of Boxers, he basically said why would I pay big bucks to get a dog when I can get this one practically for free. Keep in mind this guy was making 6 figures back in the early 1990's. Clearly his motivation was to get a breeder quality dog at shelter prices. Then he could also parade around saying he rescued dogs like some do as a badge of righteousness.

I think if all shelters went around charging breeder prices for dogs fewer dogs would be adopted and more would be euthanized.
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Old 03-03-2015, 04:55 PM
 
8,051 posts, read 3,798,229 times
Reputation: 10478
Quote:
Originally Posted by catdad7x View Post
Indirectly, they do have something to do with it. A person who wants a dog can buy one from a breeder, or adopt from a shelter. Choosing to buy eliminates the chance for a home for the shelter dog, and if no one else comes along, that dog could be put to sleep because the shelter is full and that dog has run out of time. There are more dogs and cats alive in this country than there are good homes for, so we have overflowing shelter populations. Breeders add to those overall numbers.
Part of your post is accurate regarding shelter pets and time limitations. However you are putting the onus on the wrong party if you blame breeders for this. Most dogs/cats that wind up in shelters are unwanted mutts who were never sprayed/neutered and create endless puppies/kittens. This is a fault of your average Joe, not a quality breeder down the road.
Your analogy could be likened to saying new car manufactures should not make as many cars as they do, because many a good used car could still be driven instead of winding up in the scrapyard.

Also keep in mind that many people want purebred dogs for health/temperament reasons. When you adopt a shelter dog, you have no clue what you are getting in those two areas. Some shelter dogs wind up costing their new owners much more than a purebred due to all the vet bills. Plus you have no idea how the dogs was trained/raised or if it was abused. You also have no idea if the sire/dam had a good temperament, or will be a ticking time bomb down the road.

I am all for adopting shelter/rescue dogs/cats for those who know what they are getting into. I also do not like the fact that animals are put to sleep and incinerated on a daily basis. But one issue should not be laid at the others doorstep as a cause like you attempted to do.
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Old 03-03-2015, 04:58 PM
 
8,051 posts, read 3,798,229 times
Reputation: 10478
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanguardisle View Post
I think if all shelters went around charging breeder prices for dogs fewer dogs would be adopted and more would be euthanized.
That is very true, with no dispute from me. However that is not what I asked you as an individual. I asked if YOU would be as willing if you had to pay the same price as a breeder would charge, even if the cause was good. This was posed because you said you would not buy from a breeder, and instead would get one from a shelter. I have no issue with your motivation, as I can see the merit in either decision. But I'd like to know what it is?
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Old 03-03-2015, 05:01 PM
 
Location: Washington state
4,759 posts, read 2,357,514 times
Reputation: 13989
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanguardisle View Post
Oh I have mentioned some but the one that comes to mind again is the German Shepherd
Here is a link showing the famous German Shepherd Rin Tin Tin compared to a modern German Shepherd with its badly sloping back and low hind area some call half frog dog style.

http://whowhatwhy.org/wp-content/upl...014/04/212.jpg

Another issue is that AKC dogs cannot be fixed which may lead to some unwanted pregnancies. Inbreeding of dogs makes them less healthy and is a frequent in situation with purebred dogs, it is much less likely to happen with hybrid mutt type dogs since they do not have to look a certain way.

But the main problem I have is the health issues creating by these changes bred into dogs over time

Pugs faces too pushed in causing breathing problems and oveheating extreme tail curl can cause paralysis
English Bulldog cannot mate without medical help and doesnt live on average more than 6 years.
Dachshund legs now so low to the ground their bodies almost scrape the floor while back and neck is longer
Basset hound is lower with shorter hind legs structure, vertebra problems too much skin droopy eyes cause health problems


The Cruel Cost of Extreme Dog Breeding - WhoWhatWhy

https://dogbehaviorscience.wordpress...d-improvement/
This is still not the fault of the AKC.

Each breed has its own breed club. Those breed clubs are the ones that set the standard for how their breed of dog is supposed to look, act, and behave. A dog show is usually put on by a club. If a show is AKC sanctioned, then the points attained at that show are recorded by the AKC so titles and championships can be computed.

When the show is being planned, the organizers, not the AKC, will select judges. The judges are licensed by the AKC to judge certain types of breeds, which makes sense. You don't want a Lab to be judged by a judge who has only judged whippets. It is the judges, then, who put up the dogs who will get the points for first and second place. If a certain dog is doing a lot of winning and being campaigned in magazines, a lot of people will want one "just like him". So they breed to that dog or that dog's sire without paying any attention to the genetics of their dogs. Maybe this dog has long necks in his pedigree and if you breed a dog to him that also has long necks in her pedigree, you may get a dog that looks like a giraffe. If a lot of other breeders decide they like that, they may breed their dogs with longs necks as well and before you know it, you have a breed with a lot of neck problems. None of that involves the AKC.

The AKC will record a puppy in their organization if the puppy has purebred parents registered. The AKC does NOT individually check out the puppy or the breeder to see if it is or will be show quality. The AKC does NOT regulate breeding ethics for every dog breeder in the US. How on earth could it? The fact is, there are millions of registered AKC puppies who are so far from show quality in accordance with their breed standard, they could never be shown and should never be bred. However, because there may be a national craze for Cocker Spaniels, for instance, Joe Blow sees a way to make money and grabs a sub-par specimen of a Cocker Spaniel and breeds it to another sub-par Cocker Spaniel to breed puppies and guess what happens when these Cocker Spaniels are snappy and bite? You guessed it. People in forums like these complain that the AKC is responsible for dogs that bite, or can't do their jobs, or look hideous, when the AKC didn't have a thing to do with the breeding of two inferior specimens.

I have owned mixbreed dogs. I was part of the small group of people who started petitioning to have them called All Americans in Northern California so they could be given obedience titles and certificates back in the late 70s. I like mixed breeds, but when it came to a dog for myself, I chose a purebred Doberman. He wasn't good enough for the show ring, but he attained all his obedience titles, his tracking degree, his endurance degree from our local Schutzhund club, passed several temperament tests, and did SAR training, which were all the things I wanted to be able to do with a dog. These were not things I could have done with a lot of the mixed breed dogs I had trained. My Doberman had the temperament I was looking for and I was lucky as a novice to have met his breeder and to have known many of the dogs from her line. Now, if you say the AKC is responsible for all the bad dogs out there, then by the same token, you'd have to say they were responsible for all the good dogs out there, too. And I'm here to tell you that training my dog was a lot of long and patient work. All the AKC did was record his birth and keep track of the record keeping. The breeder was the one who decided to bring my dog into the world, and me and that dog did the rest of it, not the AKC.
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Old 03-03-2015, 05:07 PM
 
Location: Central Florida
2,063 posts, read 1,744,189 times
Reputation: 1901
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector1 View Post
That is very true, with no dispute from me. However that is not what I asked you as an individual. I asked if YOU would be as willing if you had to pay the same price as a breeder would charge, even if the cause was good. This was posed because you said you would not buy from a breeder, and instead would get one from a shelter. I have no issue with your motivation, as I can see the merit in either decision. But I'd like to know what it is?

Can't afford a breeder price for a dog. But just so we are clear what price are we talking about ? A craigslist breeder price or a Paris Hilton breeder price?

Since you have asked and have experience with shelters I have a question for you... What if you want to help save a dog's life and adopt but are not sure you can afford a pet? How do you know if you can afford to have a dog?
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Old 03-03-2015, 05:13 PM
 
Location: Myrtle Creek, Oregon
11,177 posts, read 11,589,847 times
Reputation: 17389
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nor'Eastah View Post
HSUS is an animal-rights organization, pure and simple. It has a political agenda, which is to prevent the use of any animal for anything. I don't care if you are a vegan who wears only sneakers; if you are an insulin-dependent diabetic, you need pig insulin, or you will die.

The AKC maintains the stud book for pure-bred dogs, as does DRA (fprmerly US Kennel Club). There are cat registries, and livestock registries...they all maintain the studbook for their breed(s). This is a valuable service. The have nothing to do with the conditions on a breeder's premises; their only concern is which dog is the sire, and which is the dam, and whether the breed is being perpetrated correctly (through AKC-sanctioned conformation shows).

This is just a political rant by an animal-rights group.
Don't confuse politics with the welfare of dogs. The AKC could shut down every puppy mill in the country tomorrow, just by restricting the number of puppies that an individual could register in any given year. They make their money through registration fees. They turn a blind eye to the horrible conditions at puppy mills. The only way to make a profit from dog breeding is through neglect and abuse of the breeding stock. That is not true of any other species.

That's an entirely separate issue from their artificial and destructive dog shows, where every dog should be judged by its own breed association.
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Old 03-03-2015, 05:23 PM
 
8,051 posts, read 3,798,229 times
Reputation: 10478
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanguardisle View Post
Can't afford a breeder price for a dog. But just so we are clear what price are we talking about ? A craigslist breeder price or a Paris Hilton breeder price?

Since you have asked and have experience with shelters I have a question for you... What if you want to help save a dog's life and adopt but are not sure you can afford a pet? How do you know if you can afford to have a dog?
First question. It really depends on the breed of dog, your location (i.e. city vs. rural and CA vs. MS), etc.
As to Craigslist, I would suspect most of those are backyard breeders which are a far cry from reputable breeders. So while I get your point regarding price, I'd stay away from a breeder on Craigslist. You best bet would be to research the type of dog you want based on it's breed standard characteristics, regardless of where you bought it (breeder or shelter). Some dogs need little more than food, water and love. Others require a lot of attention, exercise, training, etc. Far too often a person buys a dog based on looks(the cuteness factor) only to wind up with a dog who was destined to not be the right fit for them.

As to your 2nd question, this is a very smart one to ask before buying a pet. Aside from my aforementioned recommendations, dogs can eat like birds, or like horses. So food costs will be a large consideration. I always recommend a quality food so your pet stays healthy, but it does not need to be $60 for a 30lbs bag.
The level of training it will need if you don't know how or don't have the time. Remember some dogs are smart as a whip and eager to please. Others can be obstinate, stubborn, and will downright refuse to listen to all but the most experienced trainers.

I will finish, but must now run. Hopefully I will remember to continue later tonight.
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