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Old 04-20-2015, 07:08 PM
 
13,031 posts, read 12,512,872 times
Reputation: 37349

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
Why should it be "disturbing"? it's an impulse which has ruled human nature from time immemorial; it's only within the past couple of decades that a relative handful of idealists have deluded themselves into thinking that the basics of human behavior can be changed by legislative fiat (which, BTW, is unworkable in much of the world -- including some regions and sectors of even the most tested democracies.)

We do have a problem; the natural habitat of many species is shrinking; some have become extinct, others are on the verge of it. But like the hype over climate change (climate change is real, but the phrase "global warming" is a scare tactic) the simplistic recruitment of sheltered suburbanites, eager to find someone to demonize, usually a mature white male, via oversimplified arguments probably both stiffens the opposition and offends many of us who recognize that, while there is a problem, there is no simple solution.

It's probably out of our hands, no matter what the ideologues and dreamers propose.
Rape used to be something that was acceptable for time immemorial. Domestic violence. Genocide. Racism was just a given. Etc. Standards have changed, at least in most developed cultures. Call me an ideologue and dreamer, but I think that's a good thing. Tell me, do you have a wife, a daughter, a sister? Do you think laws against their abuse, despite domestic violence being an accepted thing until very recently in our history as a species, are the work of dreamers and ideologues?

Let's just say as societies develop needless death and needless suffering, even of animals, tends to become frowned upon. And how is that bad?

I'm not saying anything about legislation either. I'm saying if you kill an animal purely because you enjoy killing it, well, you're no one I want to spend any time with. I mean, hell, killing animals for fun is one of the traits of serial killers.

I'm not a sheltered suburbanite. I was raised by a guy who hunted, trapped and fished his way through the Depression and WW2 when he was a kid. I saw my dad kill a lot of things around our property... for a reason other than the fact that he thought it was fun. Don't get me wrong, that guy LOVED the chase and the hunt and being out in the swamps and woods. But he never killed anything just to say "Look what I did" or boost his own ego. And that's what trophy hunting comes down to.

It is pure violence and excess. Something killed because it gives the individual a thrill. Exorbitant sums spent to make you feel like you're going on a real hunt.

I've got buddies that go out into the mountains every year to take elk and whatnot - I get the thrill, I really do. You stalk your prey, you take your shot, you dress your kill, you share some beers with your friends and then you have a freezer full of meat. How could that be anything less than awesome? But when you go on an expensive trophy hunt, it's all about taking the life of another thing so you get that trophy and that photo op. Not cool.

Populations need culling. Conservation is important, and sometimes a habitat can't support all the animals living in it. If it's about the conservation and not the killing, you support it being done in an organized and systematic way, humanely and efficiently, in a way that benefits the local people. And if you want to enjoy an exotic place and its wildlife, you pay for a tour, rather than a hunt, spend your tourist dollars locally and bring your camera.

But if you get off on killing, you do a safari hunt. It's really that simple. And I don't want people who get off on killing in my life. Call me crazy, but it's a personal thing.
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Old 04-20-2015, 08:09 PM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
17,669 posts, read 21,863,538 times
Reputation: 44699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unsettomati View Post
Game Hunter Ian Gibson Trampled To Death By Elephant

Best wishes and a speedy recovery for the elephant.

Perfectly said.
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Old 04-20-2015, 08:49 PM
 
3,806 posts, read 5,014,776 times
Reputation: 3284
Quote:
Originally Posted by JrzDefector View Post
And then you add in that animals like elephants are VERY intelligent creatures who demonstrate very sophisticated cultures and strong family ties. Yeah, the herd needs to be culled sometimes, but what does it say about you that YOU want to be the one to have the pleasure of the culling, such that you will pay thousands of dollars to make it happen.
What does it say about you that you elephants are intelligent, have cultures, and familial relationships, and in the next sentence conclude that it is okay for humans to kill them simply because we deem it necessary?
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Old 04-20-2015, 09:35 PM
 
387 posts, read 254,355 times
Reputation: 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuburnAL View Post
Current evidence indicates that lions probably used to and to some extent still do kill elephants a lot more often than was thought just a decade ago. It just happens at night so it went unnoticed for a very long time. Tigers have been documented killing bears and crocodiles fairly often.

In the end most animals end up prey for something if they don't die from disease.

True and not true.....

As far as I know Lions only take down young Elephants....and the only pride that has been documented taking down Adult (female Elephants) is that super "Suvati" pride in Botswana that is made up of like 20+ Lions.....In 99.99999 of circumstances (night and day included) Adult Elephants are way to large to be on the menu for Lion prides...Bull Elephants are completely off the menu even for that freak super pride in Botswana...Adult Bull Elephants are not prey items for any Lion pride....All the confirmed kills done by the Suvati pride were young, juvenile, and rarely Adult Female Elephants (and the Suvati pride like I said contains 20+ Lions)...

Tigers do ambush Bears during Hibernation times and Bengal Tigers can and do kill Sloth Bears outright, but Siberian Tigers avoid attacking large adult male Brown Bears, (but Siberian Tigers are so rare in the wild that these interactions almost never occur anyway)....

I would back a Tiger or Lion over a Bear of equivalent size whether face to face or by ambush, but any Bear over say 650-700lbs would be to large to kill/beat for any 450-500lb big cat....even in an ambush....Not to mention Bears are very flexible and have flexible forelimbs so they can defend themselves very well....One of the main reasons why Lions and Tigers can kill huge animals like Buffalo, Hippos, Giraffes is because these animals are to slow and rigid to ever get the Big Cats off of them (Watch how Lions hunt Hippo....they just circle the Hippo and attack it's back and the Hippo isn't able to use it's Jaws to counter attack)....You can't kill what you can't catch.....Kind of like George Foreman vs Ali but in animal terms....Bears are much better at defending themselves from potential predators since they are predators themselves and thus are fast, flexible, and can run/turn extremely quickly (Most Ungulates can't do this)....Bu Bears would do bad against huge Herbivores since they generally aren't as fast/agile as Lions/Tigers and generally kill prey by breaking the neck (Which would never work on an animal like a Hippo or huge Buffalo)....

Styles make fights as they say....
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Old 04-20-2015, 10:04 PM
 
Location: Staten Island
1,653 posts, read 1,702,089 times
Reputation: 2353
Justice was served.
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Old 04-20-2015, 10:49 PM
 
Location: Oceania
8,623 posts, read 5,917,408 times
Reputation: 8318
Yay!
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Old 04-20-2015, 10:54 PM
 
Location: Oceania
8,623 posts, read 5,917,408 times
Reputation: 8318
Quote:
Originally Posted by NY to Chicago View Post
True and not true.....

As far as I know Lions only take down young Elephants....and the only pride that has been documented taking down Adult (female Elephants) is that super "Suvati" pride in Botswana that is made up of like 20+ Lions.....In 99.99999 of circumstances (night and day included) Adult Elephants are way to large to be on the menu for Lion prides...Bull Elephants are completely off the menu even for that freak super pride in Botswana...Adult Bull Elephants are not prey items for any Lion pride....All the confirmed kills done by the Suvati pride were young, juvenile, and rarely Adult Female Elephants (and the Suvati pride like I said contains 20+ Lions)...

Tigers do ambush Bears during Hibernation times and Bengal Tigers can and do kill Sloth Bears outright, but Siberian Tigers avoid attacking large adult male Brown Bears, (but Siberian Tigers are so rare in the wild that these interactions almost never occur anyway)....

I would back a Tiger or Lion over a Bear of equivalent size whether face to face or by ambush, but any Bear over say 650-700lbs would be to large to kill/beat for any 450-500lb big cat....even in an ambush....Not to mention Bears are very flexible and have flexible forelimbs so they can defend themselves very well....One of the main reasons why Lions and Tigers can kill huge animals like Buffalo, Hippos, Giraffes is because these animals are to slow and rigid to ever get the Big Cats off of them (Watch how Lions hunt Hippo....they just circle the Hippo and attack it's back and the Hippo isn't able to use it's Jaws to counter attack)....You can't kill what you can't catch.....Kind of like George Foreman vs Ali but in animal terms....Bears are much better at defending themselves from potential predators since they are predators themselves and thus are fast, flexible, and can run/turn extremely quickly (Most Ungulates can't do this)....Bu Bears would do bad against huge Herbivores since they generally aren't as fast/agile as Lions/Tigers and generally kill prey by breaking the neck (Which would never work on an animal like a Hippo or huge Buffalo)....

Styles make fights as they say....
Let a big cat get on it's back to use those powerful back legs and claws to eviscerate the bear and watch the gore. If anyone has played rough with a house cat they have seen the same demonstration. A Siamese is a nasty little critter.
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Old 04-21-2015, 07:39 AM
 
11,598 posts, read 17,566,001 times
Reputation: 17328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nema98 View Post
They can send his body to the NRA headquarters.
Dude, you are talking nonsense. NRA is an American organization. Gibson is a resident of Zimbabwe.
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Old 04-21-2015, 09:02 AM
 
284 posts, read 325,616 times
Reputation: 519
A few points that need to be clarified:

1) Hunting an elephant has nothing to do with food; it would be much easier and safer to hunt Eland or other antelope or Warthog, a wild boar, and they would be much better to eat. The discussion of what you choose to eat is a side issue.
2) Hunting is, or is supposed to be, very selective, i.e. hunters target only mature male animals so as not to orphan young elephants.
3) Poaching is often by wire or barbed wire foot snares which are completely indiscriminate and kill slowly and painfully, often snaring animals with no ivory value.
4) Too large an elephant population causes damage to the Mopane scrub which provides cover for antelope, zebra, wildebeest and other animals to protect them from predators (lions, leopard and cheetahs).
5) The African elephant is not endangered. Any discussion of Asian elephants,(or tigers or bears, which alsodo not exist in Africa), is interesting, but not relevant.
6) Powdered rhino horn, not ivory, is thought in parts of Asia to have aphrodisiac properties.
Most tourism in Zimbabwe is based on wildlife photography, not hunting, and provides an important source of revenue and foreign currency. While hunters no doubt pay huge license fees there are thousands of ordinary tourists and very few hunters.
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:25 AM
 
Location: A great city, by a Great Lake!
15,908 posts, read 9,671,120 times
Reputation: 7449
Quote:
Originally Posted by JrzDefector View Post
Rape used to be something that was acceptable for time immemorial. Domestic violence. Genocide. Racism was just a given. Etc. Standards have changed, at least in most developed cultures. Call me an ideologue and dreamer, but I think that's a good thing. Tell me, do you have a wife, a daughter, a sister? Do you think laws against their abuse, despite domestic violence being an accepted thing until very recently in our history as a species, are the work of dreamers and ideologues?

Let's just say as societies develop needless death and needless suffering, even of animals, tends to become frowned upon. And how is that bad?

I'm not saying anything about legislation either. I'm saying if you kill an animal purely because you enjoy killing it, well, you're no one I want to spend any time with. I mean, hell, killing animals for fun is one of the traits of serial killers.

I'm not a sheltered suburbanite. I was raised by a guy who hunted, trapped and fished his way through the Depression and WW2 when he was a kid. I saw my dad kill a lot of things around our property... for a reason other than the fact that he thought it was fun. Don't get me wrong, that guy LOVED the chase and the hunt and being out in the swamps and woods. But he never killed anything just to say "Look what I did" or boost his own ego. And that's what trophy hunting comes down to.

It is pure violence and excess. Something killed because it gives the individual a thrill. Exorbitant sums spent to make you feel like you're going on a real hunt.

I've got buddies that go out into the mountains every year to take elk and whatnot - I get the thrill, I really do. You stalk your prey, you take your shot, you dress your kill, you share some beers with your friends and then you have a freezer full of meat. How could that be anything less than awesome? But when you go on an expensive trophy hunt, it's all about taking the life of another thing so you get that trophy and that photo op. Not cool.

Populations need culling. Conservation is important, and sometimes a habitat can't support all the animals living in it. If it's about the conservation and not the killing, you support it being done in an organized and systematic way, humanely and efficiently, in a way that benefits the local people. And if you want to enjoy an exotic place and its wildlife, you pay for a tour, rather than a hunt, spend your tourist dollars locally and bring your camera.

But if you get off on killing, you do a safari hunt. It's really that simple. And I don't want people who get off on killing in my life. Call me crazy, but it's a personal thing.

I get what you're saying. I have no issue with hunting for food, or raising livestock for harvest since we do have to eat. But to kill for the sake of getting a trophy... I'm not a fan of! It's like... ooooh you're a tough guy! Now again I'm not a full fledged city slicker, and I grew up around and know people who hunt, but they eat what they kill, and don't hunt just for the sake of killing something. The way I see while God gave us dominion over the animals, that doesn't mean that He gave us carte blanche to kill them needlessly or abuse them!
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