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Old 04-24-2015, 08:48 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
3,510 posts, read 2,802,049 times
Reputation: 6371

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Quote:
Originally Posted by d4g4m View Post
All those illegal kids crossing the border are carrying all kinds of diseases. Do you want them sitting next to your kid without vaccinations?


All those "illegal kids" are more likely to have been vaccinated than kids that were born here in the U.S. The rates of vaccination in central and south America typically exceed those in the U.S.

 
Old 04-25-2015, 12:26 AM
 
Location: Portland, OR
9,601 posts, read 9,445,883 times
Reputation: 9211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juram View Post
Wow, just wow.
Am I wrong? All these vaccinated kids getting sick. Just one unvaccinated kid and a whole class full of vaccinated kids are sick as dogs and cats. Hmmm. I have never gotten a flu vaccine and I have never gotten the flu. That is a much better record than that of my friends who do get the flu vaccine every year. Several of them have gotten the flu anyway despite shelling out for vaccine. Wow.... just wow.
 
Old 04-25-2015, 12:48 AM
 
Location: Portland, OR
9,601 posts, read 9,445,883 times
Reputation: 9211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Ah, but you see, how do propose to keep unvaccinated children, and adults, totally out of society? Throw them in concentration camps? Schools? They will still be all around everyone.
Adults are unvaccinated by default. The recent outbreaks are nearly all due to vaccinated adults whose immunizations were long since no longer effective. No jurisdiction I know of maintains booster programs for childhood illnesses for adults. They make so much money vaccinating the current crop of newborns they haven't stopped to think of the billions more that could be made scaring up still more business vaccinating adults ever 20 years or so. They are just warming up to that idea now. Just when we should be moving on to the next frontier of disease management and finding CURES for the various maladies of humankind we are gearing up for a giant step backwards and putting the primary responsibility for disease management on HEALTHY people.

A (currently) low, but growing, percent of breast cancer is caused by the very mammograms that detect breast cancer. Despite this, no health management system will pay for the thermal imaging or sonogram technologies that do not cause cancer in otherwise healthy women. Vaccines for illnesses cause illness in a small, but growing, percent of healthy people. Despite this, no health management system will say that other strategies for disease prevention should be developed or tried.

There will come a point, likely long after anyone who can read this is still alive, but, if present trends continue, there will be more sub-par adults who cannot, work, care for themselves or live independenlty than can be managed by normal, healthy, functioning adults. When the millions of currently autistic and pre-autiistic children are in their 20's they will be as much as 10% of the working age population. You don't have a functioning society at that point. Maybe vaccines don't cause autism but it isn't all that unreasonable for young parents to be scared ****less at what seems to be, in many parts of this country to be better odds of having a child on the autism spectrum than not!

One thing that would really restore faith in the system, however, would be vaccines that work. It isn't too much to ask for.
 
Old 04-25-2015, 02:01 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,576 posts, read 26,211,757 times
Reputation: 26622
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherTouchOfWhimsy View Post
On topic: What about the kids who cannot have vaccines for whatever reason? Some kids cannot safely have certain vaccines. Are those kids still allowed to go to school? And if so, why is it assumed that they're not walking around carrying diseases?
Kids with medical contraindications to vaccines get to go to school and receive the benefit of herd immunity. Yes, they might get a vaccine preventable disease, but having everyone in the community who is medically eligible for the vaccine take it, the risk that an unvaccinated person will get sick goes way down. Obviously, everyone is at risk for diseases for which there are no vaccines. That does not mean we should not prevent what we can

Quote:
I don't know what the answer is. I don't have a problem with it at public schools, I guess. It should be up to each private school to decide for themselves, though. What if it were a Christian Scientist or Amish private school? Don't they have a religious objection to vaccines? It seems like those types of school should be able to accept unvaxed children, particularly since it's a tenet of their religions.
It turns out that most claims for religious exemptions are bogus, because most religions have no objections to vaccines. The Amish vaccinate. Even Christian Scientists allow vaccination. In fact, the Dutch Reformed Church is the only major religion which actually refuse vaccines. Christian churches that reject vaccines do not follow mainstream thought about it.

A review of religion and vaccinations

http://childrenshealthcare.org/wp-co...in-article.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherTouchOfWhimsy View Post
This isn't really true. There was the old DPT that was killing children that parents refused to get. At some point (late 1990s?) they discontinued it and switched to the safer DTaP. Before that, though, plenty of parents just said no to that vaccine; there just wasn't Internet coverage of it.
There was no "old DPT that was killing people". It caused more local reactions, and there was a risk of convulsions (about one in 1750 doses), but very rare serious, permanent neurological injury. The acellular vaccine was introduced in response to side effects, not deaths.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Please do not attempt to LIE to a person born in 1948 with that picture. I was NEVER put in an Iron Lung for Measles, Mumps, Rubella, Chicken Pox, or Scarlet Fever which I all had before the age of 6 years old.

Your SCARE targets will not work for those of us who were alive, and SURVIVED, to beget YOU.

Grandma says "FORCE me to vaccinate MYSELF". Dr. Jenny parents of little children? Oh, you are CLUELESS if you think that.
You apparently do not understand that children who do not survive childhood illnesses do not live to reproduce and become grandmas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJJersey View Post
Personal immunity applies, for example, to things like influenza where even the highest vaccination rates can't reduce the spread in the general public.
If we had a well matched vaccine and a vaccination rate of about 90%, we could stop flu outbreaks, too.

Flu and herd immunity: Getting the shot is as important for the community as for you | cleveland.com

Folks like to use the flu vaccine as an example to suggest vaccines do not work. The ever changing nature of flu viruses, the need to try to predict which strains to use in the vaccine, and the lack of a universal vaccine that will protect against all flu strains and not require an annual shot make protecting against the flu difficult. If the vaccine matches the circulating strains, it can be very effective. However, people have to actually take it for us to get the best results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJJersey View Post
Many diseases could be prevented if we just put all kids on all kinds of medication to prevent as much as possible. That doesn't justify forcing medical procedures or medication on people. If you're worried about your kids then get them vaccinated.
Some kids cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons and no vaccine works 100% of the time. It does not work at all if you do not take it. No one will force you to take a vaccine if you prefer the anti-vax, anti-science approach. The majority of us, who do vaccinate, just do not want your child in school.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
I am simply not understanding how unvaccinated children put vaccinated children at risk. I am still not understanding why in 2015 the status quo response to disease management is to treat HEALTHY people for the illness . I get that in 1956 it might have seemed like a breakthrough.... but ... really... still?? Vaccines are just barely useful now after decades of R&D. When and if, there are laws mandating 100% adherence to vaccine schedules put forth by drug makers... watch the numbers of viral definitions in vaccine formulations explode. Watch safety trials disappear. Watch the numbers of HEALTHY children sickened by faulty vaccine products skyrocket. And... watch the prices for vaccines and immunizations peg the insanity meter putting Health Management Systems financial outlooks on life-support. I am an otherwise progressive and science motivated individual but I am suspicious of the Profit Motive. If and when vaccine programs do NOT have profit potential for drug makers I will remain very skeptical that they can offer any benefit to society. Vaccines can and must be made obsolete by the development of CURES for the various and sundry maladies of humankind. Its past time.
Good grief. Vaccines have prevented more sickness and death than any other medical innovation in history. They are among the most tested and most closely monitored drugs on earth. You do not have to cure that which you prevent, which is what vaccines do: prevent sickness. Vaccines even potentially can completely eliminate an infectious disease, such as was done with smallpox and could be done with polio, which currently exists only where there is opposition to vaccinating for it.

Drug companies would make billions more on medications to treat vaccine preventable diseases than is spent on vaccines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
The peak of Polio was in 1952.

In 1952 3000 died from polio, 7000 died from asthma, 200,000 died from cancer and 20,000 died from TB just to name a few causes of death.

And the CDC lists many other forms of death that far surpassed the number of deaths from polio.
I am confused as to what your point is. Because people died from other causes, polio vaccination was unnecessary? That's a bit like saying because people drown we should not use automobile seat belts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Oh, my dear people, you are totally delusional. Are you aware that your child's TEACHER, or LUNCH LADY, is not required to be vaccinated? Maybe instead of being terrified of all those little children, maybe you should be terrified of all the unvaccinated adults in your child's school??????? ROFL Of a course all ADULTS are fully vaccinated!!!!!! Do you believe in the Tooth Fairly too?

Worked in public schools for over 10 years. Nobody ever asked ME for my vaccination record, if I even had them from decades ago for the few that I ever got.

Are you aware that that public school staff can sign an OPT OUT card for the Hep. B Vaccination, which all NEWBORNS are now required to get?

I think you paranoid people are totally clueless about exactly WHO you "need" to be paranoid about. lol Your "Herd Immunity" problem with not be solved with 100% vaccinated children.
Yes, adults should be vaccinated, too, and for those with contact with children at school there should be no non-medical exemptions.

Your lack of understanding of herd immunity is glaring. Everyone in the community contributes to herd immunity: adults and children. It does not matter how immunity was acquired, whether by having the infection (such as all of us born before 1957 for measles, mumps, and rubella) or by vaccination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
Am I wrong? All these vaccinated kids getting sick. Just one unvaccinated kid and a whole class full of vaccinated kids are sick as dogs and cats. Hmmm. I have never gotten a flu vaccine and I have never gotten the flu. That is a much better record than that of my friends who do get the flu vaccine every year. Several of them have gotten the flu anyway despite shelling out for vaccine. Wow.... just wow.
The flu vaccine this year did not contain the strain that was most common. It is part of the nature of making flu vaccine. It does not mean that we should not vaccinate against flu. What we have is the best method until someone comes up with a better vaccine that works against multiple strains.
 
Old 04-25-2015, 02:22 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,576 posts, read 26,211,757 times
Reputation: 26622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
Adults are unvaccinated by default. The recent outbreaks are nearly all due to vaccinated adults whose immunizations were long since no longer effective. No jurisdiction I know of maintains booster programs for childhood illnesses for adults. They make so much money vaccinating the current crop of newborns they haven't stopped to think of the billions more that could be made scaring up still more business vaccinating adults ever 20 years or so. They are just warming up to that idea now. Just when we should be moving on to the next frontier of disease management and finding CURES for the various maladies of humankind we are gearing up for a giant step backwards and putting the primary responsibility for disease management on HEALTHY people.
The current Disney related measles outbreak is affecting mostly unvaccinated people.

Measles | Cases and Outbreaks | CDC

"The majority of people who got measles were unvaccinated."

Vaccines prevent healthy people from getting sick. That is why you give them to healthy people.

Vaccines are recommended for adults. I recently saw an Ear, Nose, and Throat specialist. I was asked about vaccinations.

Drug companies could make a heap more money treating vaccine preventable illnesses than they do with vaccines.

Quote:
A (currently) low, but growing, percent of breast cancer is caused by the very mammograms that detect breast cancer. Despite this, no health management system will pay for the thermal imaging or sonogram technologies that do not cause cancer in otherwise healthy women. Vaccines for illnesses cause illness in a small, but growing, percent of healthy people. Despite this, no health management system will say that other strategies for disease prevention should be developed or tried.
Off topic, but the risk of missing a cancer is greater than the risk of mammograms. Thermography and ultrasound are not reliable for diagnosis of cancer, and there is research on other diagnostic methods, including MRI.

Quote:
There will come a point, likely long after anyone who can read this is still alive, but, if present trends continue, there will be more sub-par adults who cannot, work, care for themselves or live independenlty than can be managed by normal, healthy, functioning adults. When the millions of currently autistic and pre-autiistic children are in their 20's they will be as much as 10% of the working age population. You don't have a functioning society at that point. Maybe vaccines don't cause autism but it isn't all that unreasonable for young parents to be scared ****less at what seems to be, in many parts of this country to be better odds of having a child on the autism spectrum than not!
Vaccines do not cause autism, which is more and more clearly being shown to have a genetic origin.

Quote:
One thing that would really restore faith in the system, however, would be vaccines that work. It isn't too much to ask for.
The vaccines we have are effective, even the flu vaccine in a well matched year. Smallpox was vaccinated out of existence. Measles was eliminated in the US fifteen years ago. There is a danger that it will become endemic here again unless people who are not vaccinating against it do so.

Childhood immunizations cost-effective and linked to reduced disease burden

"This study evaluated the economic and disease burden benefits secondary to the United States routine childhood immunization schedule in 2009 which includes coverage against diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus, Haemophilus influenzae type B, polio, measles, mumps, rubella, Streptococcus pneumoniae, hepatitis A, and rotavirus."

"The study concluded that the routine immunization schedule is estimated to prevent 42 000 early deaths and reduce the disease burden by 20 million cases. This accounts for $13.5 billion in direct costs, and $68.8 billion in societal costs."
 
Old 04-25-2015, 02:33 AM
 
1,313 posts, read 1,622,365 times
Reputation: 1962
Suzy_q, please stop with your science and facts. I find it offensive.
 
Old 04-25-2015, 02:42 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,576 posts, read 26,211,757 times
Reputation: 26622
Quote:
Originally Posted by angelenogirl View Post
Suzy_q, please stop with your science and facts. I find it offensive.
 
Old 04-25-2015, 02:54 AM
 
Location: Portland, OR
9,601 posts, read 9,445,883 times
Reputation: 9211
Quote:
Originally Posted by angelenogirl View Post
Suzy_q, please stop with your science and facts. I find it offensive.
Science and facts offensive? Never! Smarmy point/counterpoint rebuttal, relentless cut and paste rejoinder, very offensive
 
Old 04-25-2015, 03:31 AM
 
Location: Portland, OR
9,601 posts, read 9,445,883 times
Reputation: 9211
As a child I was vaccinated like most children of the 50's for every childhood illness that vaccines existed for. I got them all anyway. Measles, mumps, chicken pox... ... Most kids did. 55 years later vaccines are no more useful at preventing non-lethal infections in children than when I was a child. I suspect that because of the fact that Polio, Diptheria, Smallpox and some other heavy hitter illnesses absolutely cannot be allowed to run rampant, there is a greater amount of care taken in the preparation of vaccines for those illnesses and the bottom line is, they are effective. Measles... not terribly deadly. I've had it. Not fun, but... I'm here. I mean people die from colds! But not usually. If and when someone markets a vaccine for the common cold.... save your money! It will not work. It will cost the moon, but it will not do diddly re: your chances of getting rhynovirus. A fortune will be made by somebody playing in the margins of credibility and actual risk to them will be minimal since the stakes are so much lower. Market a vaccine for Polio and that sucker better work, and it will. Market a vaccine for the Common Cold and if it works... take the credit, if it doesn't... blame it on pilot error and move on.

I am not sure how many people got sick at Disney, but lets say it was two dozen people. Lets just imagine a bonafide CURE for measles existed. Person sick with measles takes this preparation and they are well in 48 hours. Guaranteed. What could such an agent cost? 2K? 5K? 10K??? But we are not in that sci-fi universe where there is a cure for measles (and other diseases) so we have to vaccinate our way to a disease free theme park. So 100% compliance with vaccine protocols becomes de rigueur for admission to Disney and other public venues. How many people visit Disney in a year? 120M? They all have to show proof of current vaccination for Measles, Mumps and Rubella or no go. At $25/ea. what is the gross take of medical systems that immunize amusement park devotees? This is why the vaccination model remains the Gold Standard, and has become entrenched, although it is the very definition of inefficient!
 
Old 04-25-2015, 03:32 AM
 
1,313 posts, read 1,622,365 times
Reputation: 1962
This is great for your cause: Facebook photo comparing vaccinations to rape prompts severe backlash
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