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Old 06-05-2015, 11:55 AM
 
305 posts, read 354,308 times
Reputation: 711

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As long as those families who have their children removed from the school are also not forced to pay for the taxes of the school, then it is fine by me.

 
Old 06-05-2015, 11:57 AM
 
5,667 posts, read 3,208,198 times
Reputation: 6647
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
You seem not to understand the science behind vaccines. Herd Immunity is real.

How Herd Immunity Works



See the diagrams at the site for a better depiction of how it works.



Autism (the number is 1 in 68, btw) is NOT caused by vaccines. There have been many studies that debunked Andrew Wakefield. He lost his license to practice medicine because not only was his science flawed (no one could duplicate his results), but he was financially invested in having the results work (he was attempting to patent his own vaccine for measles). People with autism are not sub-par.

You did not grow up during the polio epidemic. I did. We have eradicated polio in the US and it was vaccines that did that. Smallpox and Diptheria have also been eliminated in the US. Other diseases have been greatly decreased.

Vaccines Have Almost Totally Eliminated These 13 Infectious Diseases In The U.S. | ThinkProgress
Vaccines have not eliminated whooping cough despite that vaccinaton being around since the 1940's. According to the CDC there were 28,000 cases last year. 100 people with measles pales in comparison. The majority reported were teens beetween 13 to 16. They were never vaccinated as children? Well, the CDC recommends a Tdap vaccination (booster) at those ages. If these teenagers were required to have their vaccinations, the schools would have to do follow ups to make sure they got their boosters. According to most articles, the new Dtap is weaker than the older version of it and requires BOOSTERS.

End of story if all teens were vaccinated? Not quite. CDC also recommends that booster for all adults 19-64 and over 65 if around infants. Also, for every pregnant woman with each pregnancy. Additionally, if these teens and adults are not getting boosters for Pertussis, it was means they are not getting boosters for Diptheria either. I am not going to put Tetanus in this discussion since that is not contagious. Question? How do you KNOW that all Grandparents, Aunts, Uncles, etc., have gotten that Tdap being around infants? ALL new parents demand that? lol

The point is that not all vaccinations in childhood last a lifetime, but "Herd Immunity" is dependent also on adult booster vaccinations. The whooping cough (pertussis boosters) outbreaks demonstrate that.
 
Old 06-05-2015, 12:05 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,033 posts, read 98,948,726 times
Reputation: 31502
The California mandates are no different than what West Virginia and Mississippi already have. There is no constitutional issue. The constitution of every state requires the state to provide a free public education. The Supreme Court refused to hear a West Virginia case about violation of religious freedom. Justices decline to hear WVa immunization case | The Herald-Dispatch

The anti-immunization people are losing the PR issue in CA:
http://ww2.kqed.org/stateofhealth/20...public-school/
http://www.latimes.com/local/abcaria...mn.html#page=1
 
Old 06-05-2015, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,564 posts, read 26,178,293 times
Reputation: 26618
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spedizzo View Post
As long as those families who have their children removed from the school are also not forced to pay for the taxes of the school, then it is fine by me.
Should childless people then also be excused from paying school tax?
 
Old 06-05-2015, 12:13 PM
 
5,667 posts, read 3,208,198 times
Reputation: 6647
ALL people pay school taxes; public, private, parochial, home school, childless, Seniors. You cannot escape two things; death and taxes.
 
Old 06-05-2015, 12:17 PM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,401 posts, read 9,562,505 times
Reputation: 7421
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Many people do fake religious reasons to claim vaccine exemptions. If you are Baptist and say you have a religious reason not to vaccinate, you are lying. Sorry.

The benefit to other people in the community justifies mandates. No one will be forced to vaccinate. No one uses scare tactics better than the anti-vaxers, so please spare me that argument.

Those who do not vaccinate will have to accept responsibility for their choice. With mandates, many will realize that the benefit of public schooling outweighs the risk of the vaccine. They have just as much right to make that decision as someone who chooses not to vaccinate.



The difference is the degree of exposure. If a child is unvaccinated, gets a disease - which is more likely to happen because he is not vaccinated - and is in a school for a third of the day, five days a week, nine months out of the year, he will expose everyone in that classroom, including the teacher. The chance of any individual meeting up with him out in public is much smaller. It's a matter of risk management. We cannot keep that child out of public. We can keep him out of classrooms. We control the risk that we can control.



Thank you for the legal point of view. I think there are lawyers for whom vaccine court cases are a niche practice. They are probably more like those who specialize in real estate or estate law than traditional malpractice lawyers, don't you think?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
I will respond to your points as you have stated them.

1. Slippery slope is a logical fallacy. All states have mandates now. California's are about mid-range. For example, they waited until after that awful pertussis epidemic of 2010 to mandate Tdap for middle schoolers.
State Mandates on Immunization and Vaccine-Preventable Diseases

2. I do not recall saying anything about this being my issue. PLease do not infer by my saying that that I am NOT concerned about vaccine safety. I originally responded to a post that said that vaccines are often improperly stored and that expired vaccines are given. This has not been the case anywhere that I worked.

3. I don't recall the welfare doctor story, and I don't get your analogy.

4. Vaccines are already mandated in the sense that every state has immunization requirements for school attendance.
State Mandates on Immunization and Vaccine-Preventable Diseases

5. There already are mandates in all 50 states.
State Mandates on Immunization and Vaccine-Preventable Diseases

6. Parents certainly do have a choice. To state otherwise is disingenuous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
You seem not to understand the science behind vaccines. Herd Immunity is real.

How Herd Immunity Works



See the diagrams at the site for a better depiction of how it works.



Autism (the number is 1 in 68, btw) is NOT caused by vaccines. There have been many studies that debunked Andrew Wakefield. He lost his license to practice medicine because not only was his science flawed (no one could duplicate his results), but he was financially invested in having the results work (he was attempting to patent his own vaccine for measles). People with autism are not sub-par.

You did not grow up during the polio epidemic. I did. We have eradicated polio in the US and it was vaccines that did that. Smallpox and Diptheria have also been eliminated in the US. Other diseases have been greatly decreased.

Vaccines Have Almost Totally Eliminated These 13 Infectious Diseases In The U.S. | ThinkProgress
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
When I first started posting here, the mods dinged me for creating a separate post for each person I repond to.

It's easy. The first response to a poster will include his name and the link to the post he made. Subsequent chunks belong to the same poster unless a new name is introduced.*

That is the way the site intends the multi-quote feature to be used.



Good grief. Even if the fact that I favor mandates is not implicit in what I say, I have definitely said I feel they are justified. People are not vaccinating for stupid reasons. The people who do vaccinate do not have to be the ones to pay for that stupidity.



Mandates are necessary because too many people will not vaccinate without them.



For profit is irrelevant. We do not vaccinate just to make profits for drug companies. We vaccinate to prevent dangerous diseases. Yes, they are dangerous.



All of this is irrelevant. All the billionaires in the world could decide to fund all future drug R&D and make drugs free for everyone. There would still be some people who would refuse vaccines.

The Gates Foundation is actually doing that - and being criticized for it. Sheesh.



I would disagree about out health care system. Are there bad hospitals? Yes. Are some agressively profit driven? Yes. The majority are clean and provide good, compassionate care.

None of that has anything to do with vaccines, which are strictly monitored. Any hint of a problem will get a batch withdrawn.

VAERS has a purpose, but the garbage reports are significant. Every report is investigated. You cannot just add up the total number of reports and draw conclusions from them. That is not an "excuse". That is just not the way the system is designed to be used, and the anti-vax folks abuse it to mislead people. That is true fearmongering.

LMAO, your not immune to the fearmongering Suzy. I think both sides are pretty good at scaring themselves and others.
Tried the multi quote, I need practice. Still don't like huge long posts like this but hey, maybe I'll get use to it.



Respect? No, I do not respect those who make foolish choices that place other people at risk. I do not respect people who refuse vaccines because they have "toxins" in them. They don't. I do not respect people who refuse vaccines because vaccines cause autism. They don't. I do not respect people who do not vaccinate because they cannot weigh the magnitude of the real risk of disease (it's large) against the real risk of a vaccine (it's tiny). I do not respect vaccine refusers any more than I respect drunk drivers.


*See, all the posts here are a response to you. If I wanted to respond to someone else, I could start here and do the same thing.
First of all to imply religious people are liars is just personally how you feel about religious people. Some don't like the abortion issue and vaccines have a tie to that. I respect a lot of people I don't agree with, you should try it.
Ah, the rest of this post is just the same thing. Full of your sad opinions of people for one reason or the other. I get you don't have to respect others that differ in opinion, and you can call them liars, and stupid if you want but it's not a good reply for me as it leads to just a back and forth bashing post.

There are a lot of things we do that harm others, and they are legal and people do them everyday. That really isn't a reason for me. But if it works for you then as you've stated, that's what matters.

As far as the reality of our healthcare systems, I don't think the stats for injury and death are too off base. I have quite a few friends and relatives that are nurses/doctors and they have some pretty interesting stories about the quality of staff and healthcare where they work. But feel free to explain it away, not all statistics pan out to be true for anything do they, good or bad. It is what you think it is after all. But, it does make some people worried about a healthcare professionals opinion, and treatment. So telling people to trust all medical opinion is not going to work for those people who've suffered from a medical mistake, had bad reaction to meds, etc. If you can't understand that then nothing one can do.
 
Old 06-05-2015, 12:17 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,033 posts, read 98,948,726 times
Reputation: 31502
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Vaccines have not eliminated whooping cough despite that vaccinaton being around since the 1940's. According to the CDC there were 28,000 cases last year. 100 people with measles pales in comparison. The majority reported were teens beetween 13 to 16. They were never vaccinated as children? Well, the CDC recommends a Tdap vaccination (booster) at those ages. If these teenagers were required to have their vaccinations, the schools would have to do follow ups to make sure they got their boosters. According to most articles, the new Dtap is weaker than the older version of it and requires BOOSTERS.

End of story if all teens were vaccinated? Not quite. CDC also recommends that booster for all adults 19-64 and over 65 if around infants. Also, for every pregnant woman with each pregnancy. Additionally, if these teens and adults are not getting boosters for Pertussis, it was means they are not getting boosters for Diptheria either. I am not going to put Tetanus in this discussion since that is not contagious. Question? How do you KNOW that all Grandparents, Aunts, Uncles, etc., have gotten that Tdap being around infants? ALL new parents demand that? lol

The point is that not all vaccinations in childhood last a lifetime, but "Herd Immunity" is dependent also on adult booster vaccinations. The whooping cough (pertussis boosters) outbreaks demonstrate that.
DTP vaccine in whatever incarnation always required boosters. The adult booster with pertussis in it only became available in 2005. Td booster was available before that, and recommended every 10 years. Tdap is just recommended the one time except for pregnant women; Td should be used for the other boosters every 10 years during one's adult life. Do most adults do this? No, but enough do so to keep diphtheria away. The measles vaccine has been around for 52 years and the original immunizees are still immune; no adult boosters are recommended. Polio vaccine has been around about 10 years longer, no adult boosters are recommended in the US, though my DH did have to get one when he went to China about 15 years ago. Two doses of chickenpox vaccine confer long-term, probably life long, immunity. The three doses of Hepatitis B vaccine, ditto.
 
Old 06-05-2015, 12:34 PM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,401 posts, read 9,562,505 times
Reputation: 7421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spedizzo View Post
As long as those families who have their children removed from the school are also not forced to pay for the taxes of the school, then it is fine by me.
I homeschool and I'm forced to pay those taxes. I doubt they'll exempt them, they will kick them out but still make them pay as far as I know.
 
Old 06-05-2015, 12:38 PM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,401 posts, read 9,562,505 times
Reputation: 7421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
The California mandates are no different than what West Virginia and Mississippi already have. There is no constitutional issue. The constitution of every state requires the state to provide a free public education. The Supreme Court refused to hear a West Virginia case about violation of religious freedom. Justices decline to hear WVa immunization case | The Herald-Dispatch

The anti-immunization people are losing the PR issue in CA:
Two-Thirds of Californians Support Barring Unvaccinated Children from Public School | State of Health | KQED News
Much in common, but worlds apart on the issue of vaccinating children - LA Times
If you live here it's different from what its been. This is about California. And now, not everyone in California has a right to a public education. You might take this lightly because it doesn't apply to you.
 
Old 06-05-2015, 12:42 PM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,401 posts, read 9,562,505 times
Reputation: 7421
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Should childless people then also be excused from paying school tax?
Are they mandated to not have kids? Last I heard they had a choice. Apples and oranges.
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