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Old 06-05-2015, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,401 posts, read 9,551,969 times
Reputation: 7421

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Quote:
Originally Posted by latetotheparty View Post
The parents CHOSE to segregate their children through the consequences of their choices. Not like they made these choices uninformed.



Don't I wish!! But I accept that as a member of my community it is actually to my benefit to have an educated populace, so pay the taxes.......




STDs are MUCH more difficult to share than measles, flu, chicken pox, etc. etc. etc .... you must do more than be in the same room and breathe the same air....
Well, to be fair they could say you can homeschool if you are afraid of disease transmission from going to school since it isn't that common.
Car accidents happen more, so do a lot of other things at school. That's not an argument I'd find valid. There will be non vaccinated kids at school for medical reasons who could bring it there if they were exposed outside of school. There are a lot of what ifs one could use toward their agenda.
You use that one because your agenda is to try and reach kids so that eventually more people as a whole are vaccinated, I get that. But, for me it's not enough to mandate this.

The only thing paying taxes for a free education might do is give them cause to sue for it, since they paid for it. IDK.

The CDC recommends it to teens because they spread it through sexual contact with their peers, in and out of school. Recommending vaccines for school is just part of reaching a larger populous not to prevent schools from disease. Same with their program to encourage circumcision, which they've been targeting parents and doctors for lately. They recommended making circumcision mandatory in 2009. I have no reason to think they wouldn't do it again.

It's just a means to get more to do it. Not a cure for transmission in school. Part of these programs is to encourage these things at a young age. It's easier than reaching older people. They are correct, but I don't think it will make for good relations between the health professionals and their patients.

My example was hypothetical of course but if this mandate happens at the recommendation of the CDC then there is nothing that makes me think more won't be on the way.

Last edited by PoppySead; 06-05-2015 at 02:36 PM..

 
Old 06-05-2015, 02:32 PM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,401 posts, read 9,551,969 times
Reputation: 7421
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
If those children were of a different race or there was something about their status that was immutable it would be different.

That status can change with a trip down to the local Walgreen's Pharmacy.

I'm well aware the non-vaccinated remain part of society. My daughter got chicken pox from a family that refused vaccination and neglected to even tell visitors that their kids had chicken pox. Fortunately, she had been vaccinated a couple of days before and it was over with quickly.

My bet is that when it comes right down to it that most of those parents will do the honorable thing and get their kids vaccinated. I don't expect this to cause a crisis.

What this really comes down is simply a belief that people ought to be able to make a choice that flies not only in the face of science, but in the face of the overwhelming majority in the community in which they reside. If the law changes it will no longer be a choice. That's it. End stop.

By all means, exercise your rights and contest this law all you want too. However, at the end of the day, its looking pretty clear what is going to happen. My father always said, "Do not sink your stakes in too deeply, because they are harder to pull out." You might remember that.
Well, I do agree that it seems inevitable. And, I can't really fight a majority, nor do I want to. I'm just concerned with the ripple effects of mandates. I don't have much at stake with this one, my kids were vaccinated and all but one goes to college now.

I do have compassion for those who truly believe these will harm their kids. Or are afraid they might be the ones who will get those injuries. But, for me it's all about keeping our country free to make choices. One of the greatest things to me about our country is the right to be a minority, even in view only and still have basic rights. It's worth it to me, I understand it isn't to everyone and on this issue it seems the majority do feel those rights can be withheld.

I honestly don't think this will make any difference in the amount of break outs we have in America. But, time will tell on that one.

I also have a hard time with mandating in a for profit healthcare but, we mandate the healthcare to so, lol, no point in worrying about it anymore I guess.


I'm really glad we could finally have a civil conversation about this, though. I appreciate it.

Last edited by PoppySead; 06-05-2015 at 03:28 PM..
 
Old 06-05-2015, 04:21 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,980 posts, read 98,832,039 times
Reputation: 31396
How about this: Australia To Stop Payments To Families Who Refuse Child Vaccinations : The Two-Way : NPR
Lose your tax deductions if you don't immunize. Please note "welfare" means something different in Australia.
 
Old 06-05-2015, 04:43 PM
 
5,647 posts, read 3,198,175 times
Reputation: 6629
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
DTP vaccine in whatever incarnation always required boosters. The adult booster with pertussis in it only became available in 2005. Td booster was available before that, and recommended every 10 years. Tdap is just recommended the one time except for pregnant women; Td should be used for the other boosters every 10 years during one's adult life. Do most adults do this? No, but enough do so to keep diphtheria away. The measles vaccine has been around for 52 years and the original immunizees are still immune; no adult boosters are recommended. Polio vaccine has been around about 10 years longer, no adult boosters are recommended in the US, though my DH did have to get one when he went to China about 15 years ago. Two doses of chickenpox vaccine confer long-term, probably life long, immunity. The three doses of Hepatitis B vaccine, ditto.
Are enough adults getting those boosters to stop whooping cough? Do you think it is ONLY unvaccinated children? You cannot "police" that one. Hep. B? I read that one last about 20 years, not for life. So if a 40 year old decides to get a Tat or a Piercing. are they still protected from Infancy?

HPV. Life? Recommended in childhood and teens. Of course, a 28 year old woman today will have been given that in her teen years, and be "protected"?

Come on, ADMIT it. Vaccinating 100% of children (25% of the population) and denying them public education will not give your "Herd Immunity. What about the other 75% of the population? ASSUME they are all vaccinated and up to date on CDC recommended boosters? Bye, bye Herd Immunity, at least for a generation or two until the current adult population dies.
 
Old 06-05-2015, 04:46 PM
 
8,542 posts, read 5,266,553 times
Reputation: 9110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
How about this: Australia To Stop Payments To Families Who Refuse Child Vaccinations : The Two-Way : NPR
Lose your tax deductions if you don't immunize. Please note "welfare" means something different in Australia.
Terrible.
 
Old 06-05-2015, 05:01 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,980 posts, read 98,832,039 times
Reputation: 31396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Are enough adults getting those boosters to stop whooping cough? Do you think it is ONLY unvaccinated children? You cannot "police" that one. Hep. B? I read that one last about 20 years, not for life. So if a 40 year old decides to get a Tat or a Piercing. are they still protected from Infancy?

HPV. Life? Recommended in childhood and teens. Of course, a 28 year old woman today will have been given that in her teen years, and be "protected"?

Come on, ADMIT it. Vaccinating 100% of children (25% of the population) and denying them public education will not give your "Herd Immunity. What about the other 75% of the population? ASSUME they are all vaccinated and up to date on CDC recommended boosters? Bye, bye Herd Immunity, at least for a generation or two until the current adult population dies.
What's to admit? At some point in time, some of these vaccines may require a booster. Hep B has been around about 30 years now, no boosters recommended yet.
Ask the Experts about Hepatitis B Vaccines - CDC experts answer Q&As
"Studies indicate that immunologic memory remains intact for at least 20 years and confers protection against clinical illness and chronic HBV infection, even though anti-HBs levels that once measured adequate might become low or decline below detectable levels. If one is challenged with HBV, people whose immune systems are competent will mount an anamnestic response and develop protective anti-HBs. Studies are on-going to assess whether booster doses of hepatitis B vaccine will be needed in the future."

I don't know why you're saying "Bye-bye herd immunity". Not all adults are UTD now, as you keep saying.
 
Old 06-05-2015, 05:22 PM
Status: "We're all entitled to my own opinion." (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: Suburb of Chicago
17,394 posts, read 8,555,339 times
Reputation: 18107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spedizzo View Post
As long as those families who have their children removed from the school are also not forced to pay for the taxes of the school, then it is fine by me.
Can't cherry pick. Those with children attending private schools, those with no children, those with children away at college, and empty-nester's all have to pay property taxes that fund a number of things, including local schools.

I am anti-big pharma, do not trust the CDC, or any new vaccines being introduced, and believe flu shots are a scam. But count me among those who think all kids should be immunized.

I wonder why California is so late to the game. What has changed that this is only being mandated now?
 
Old 06-05-2015, 05:53 PM
 
Location: Subconscious Syncope, USA (Northeastern US)
2,367 posts, read 1,524,054 times
Reputation: 3814
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Many people do fake religious reasons to claim vaccine exemptions. If you are Baptist and say you have a religious reason not to vaccinate, you are lying. Sorry.

Parents Fake Religion To Avoid Vaccines - CBS News

My son was diagnosed with acute lymphoblastic leukemia in 1989. He will be 40 years old in September. Children with ALL now can expect a 90% chance of no longer having their disease. Whether you call that a "cure" or a "sustained remission" pretty much makes no difference.

When studies are done of serious conditions, they pretty much establish a best case scenario. One big factor is patient compliance. Taking all medication is crucial. You cannot just sleep in on a Saturday morning and skip a day. Powerful drugs do have the potential for serious complications. Those complications may interfere with the ability to continue therapy. The drug cannot work if you cannot use it. With chemo, one problem was that low blood counts would delay the next round of treatment. While my son was taking chemo, the first drug came out to help with that problem. He had no problem with delays.

The difference between chemo and vaccines is that we have a long history with vaccines, we know what the risks are (autism is not one of them), and those risks are tiny, much smaller than the risks of the diseases they prevent.

The benefit to other people in the community justifies mandates. No one will be forced to vaccinate. No one uses scare tactics better than the anti-vaxers, so please spare me that argument.

Those who do not vaccinate will have to accept responsibility for their choice. With mandates, many will realize that the benefit of public schooling outweighs the risk of the vaccine. They have just as much right to make that decision as someone who chooses not to vaccinate.
You will never convince a mother who's child has been harmed or killed by vaccines that the risk they pose is NOT 100%

My father in law was 54 years old, had spent a lifetime working with solvents, and died shortly after his son's birthday in 1983. Im glad your child fared better than my father-in-law. It doesnt mean that if they recieved the exact same treatment the outcome would have been the same for both of them.

And Im sorry too Suzy, but Im not Baptist. Although many Protestants have a personal relationship with God, so do many Catholics, Jews, Hindus and any other religous person - including tribal people. Do tribal people in the US have any historical reason to not want your vaccines? Yes, they certainly do. They have been dealing with people shoving diseases on them since the Dutch first founded New Amsterdam. This does not mean that tribal people today do not get vaccinated; some do and some dont.

The flu may pose a serious threat to those few with compromised immune systems, but for the majority, a couple of days of bedrest, aspirin, orange juice and chicken soup is all it takes to ride it out, and the common cold has not been a serious risk to society since the turn of the 20th century.

Posters that first emerged with the flu vaccine were like a scene from "Gangs of New York" after the bombing and warring in the streets of The Five Points. Bodies lined up in the street, holding candles so relatives might identify them. Parallels made to the PLAGUE, as Jo48 pointed out. All of us 'cattle's' ears perked up immediately. Huh? Wtf? In case you arent making the connection - those are scare tactics.

If I was a parent (God had another plan), I would rather assume responsibility for any harm to my child, than believe the harm or death was caused by his doctor, school nurse, or my politicians. Im sure his doctor, school nurse, and those politicians would rather I didnt believe that too. Reality is, either way, the parent will feel responsible. If I had only vaccinated....If only I had not vaccinated...there are no guarantees.

How do those compromised immune systems benefit, if you can still catch the common cold, MMR, and all the rest anyway? What has been truely erradicated after decades of vaccination - maybe polio?

Ebola is a serious risk to society. I guess the bubonic plague is a serious risk to society, although we havent seen an outbreak of that in about 500 years. When outbreaks start occuring in the US, then you will see a rise in demand for the vaccine. Vaccines that for the most part, dont exist - or that are not readily available in your local doctors office.

We dont have a vaccine for HIV. Why not? Should HIV kids be kept home too? Should Hep C kids be kept home? We dont have a vaccine because those viruses evolve and mutate. All viruses evolve and mutate eventually.

Isnt it just simpler that those few that have so very much to fear from natural human contact be kept home instead? Yes, I think so. But I would never tell their parents that they are forced to keep them home. As you say, its the parents responsibility whether or not they want their child's life risked in Public School.

Just like Granny and Jo, I am getting old, and there is nothing forcing me to stay in the US since there are no children or grandchildren to keep me here. Likewise, there is nothing forcing anyone with children to stay either. Even if they passed a law against expatriating, everybody can just sneak across our southern border - and ironically in the opposite direction for once.

For the parents talking about school taxes while homeschooling: If childless couples, and elderly couples do not pay the tax as part of the price of living where they do, why should you? Likewise, if they do pay the tax, then it is assumable that you will still have to too.

I would wait until your right to homeschool is firmly established before making this an issue though, should you see there is a way around it.

And I would have to ask about visitors from other countries - will we have check points now at all airports and other ports of entry demanding immunization cards along with passports? I guess we will naturally close our southern border completely due to this serious risk.

Last edited by ConeyGirl52; 06-05-2015 at 06:14 PM.. Reason: spelling
 
Old 06-05-2015, 06:09 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,980 posts, read 98,832,039 times
Reputation: 31396
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPowering1 View Post
Can't cherry pick. Those with children attending private schools, those with no children, those with children away at college, and empty-nester's all have to pay property taxes that fund a number of things, including local schools.

I am anti-big pharma, do not trust the CDC, or any new vaccines being introduced, and believe flu shots are a scam. But count me among those who think all kids should be immunized.

I wonder why California is so late to the game. What has changed that this is only being mandated now?
It is not just being mandated now, that's the thing a lot of people seem not to understand. California has long had immunization mandates. They've also had religious and "personal belief" exemptions. They're just talking about eliminating those exemptions, and leaving only medical exemptions.
 
Old 06-05-2015, 07:12 PM
Status: "We're all entitled to my own opinion." (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: Suburb of Chicago
17,394 posts, read 8,555,339 times
Reputation: 18107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
It is not just being mandated now, that's the thing a lot of people seem not to understand. California has long had immunization mandates. They've also had religious and "personal belief" exemptions. They're just talking about eliminating those exemptions, and leaving only medical exemptions.
Thank you for explaining this. Based on the comments I've read it sounded like this was new.

If they're talking about eliminating the exemptions, it's probably because they feel those have been abused? I know in IL schools are assessed a penalty if they have fewer than 90% in compliance with the law. From what I've heard in my area some parents were seeking medical exemptions because their baby was fussy for a few hours after the first round of immunization shots.

Big eyeroll there.
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