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Old 06-05-2015, 07:25 PM
 
Location: Subconscious Syncope, USA (Northeastern US)
2,367 posts, read 1,524,054 times
Reputation: 3814

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I would say what has changed is a lot of parents have noticed problems shortly after vaccination, with no one offering any explanation other than to agressively claim it definately wasnt the vaccine. People have built and maintained something like 98,000 websites regarding this problem.

Forums for Hep C and HIV/AIDs do not see that much activity.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/vis/...ements/mmr.pdf

The CDC reports that people who show an allergic reaction to neomycin, or any other component in the vaccine should not get the MMR vaccine.

Aside from being in Neosporin ointment, how many one to six year olds make it through those ages without ever needing or using neomycin? How would that parent know their child was allergic to that or any other ingredient in that vaccine?

Even if Neosporin ointment was used on an infant, how serious of a reaction would they have from a small topical treatment?

 
Old 06-05-2015, 11:05 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,503 posts, read 26,116,900 times
Reputation: 26477
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
Well, I do agree that it seems inevitable. And, I can't really fight a majority, nor do I want to. I'm just concerned with the ripple effects of mandates. I don't have much at stake with this one, my kids were vaccinated and all but one goes to college now.

I do have compassion for those who truly believe these will harm their kids. Or are afraid they might be the ones who will get those injuries. But, for me it's all about keeping our country free to make choices. One of the greatest things to me about our country is the right to be a minority, even in view only and still have basic rights. It's worth it to me, I understand it isn't to everyone and on this issue it seems the majority do feel those rights can be withheld.

I honestly don't think this will make any difference in the amount of break outs we have in America. But, time will tell on that one.

I also have a hard time with mandating in a for profit healthcare but, we mandate the healthcare to so, lol, no point in worrying about it anymore I guess.


I'm really glad we could finally have a civil conversation about this, though. I appreciate it.
Outbreaks will still happen. High vaccination rates minimize the number of cases per outbreak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Are enough adults getting those boosters to stop whooping cough? Do you think it is ONLY unvaccinated children? You cannot "police" that one. Hep. B? I read that one last about 20 years, not for life. So if a 40 year old decides to get a Tat or a Piercing. are they still protected from Infancy?

HPV. Life? Recommended in childhood and teens. Of course, a 28 year old woman today will have been given that in her teen years, and be "protected"?

Come on, ADMIT it. Vaccinating 100% of children (25% of the population) and denying them public education will not give your "Herd Immunity. What about the other 75% of the population? ASSUME they are all vaccinated and up to date on CDC recommended boosters? Bye, bye Herd Immunity, at least for a generation or two until the current adult population dies.
Most adults have been vaccinated. Many do keep updated, and the publicity about the
Disney outbreak has convinced some to get boosters. Pregnant women and their families are taking the Tdap.

Vaccinated kids grow up to be vaccinated adults. Even some unvaccinated kids get themselves protected when they are old enough to decide for themselves.
 
Old 06-06-2015, 12:25 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,503 posts, read 26,116,900 times
Reputation: 26477
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConeyGirl52 View Post
You will never convince a mother who's child has been harmed or killed by vaccines that the risk they pose is NOT 100%

My father in law was 54 years old, had spent a lifetime working with solvents, and died shortly after his son's birthday in 1983. Im glad your child fared better than my father-in-law. It doesnt mean that if they recieved the exact same treatment the outcome would have been the same for both of them.

And Im sorry too Suzy, but Im not Baptist. Although many Protestants have a personal relationship with God, so do many Catholics, Jews, Hindus and any other religous person - including tribal people. Do tribal people in the US have any historical reason to not want your vaccines? Yes, they certainly do. They have been dealing with people shoving diseases on them since the Dutch first founded New Amsterdam. This does not mean that tribal people today do not get vaccinated; some do and some dont.

The flu may pose a serious threat to those few with compromised immune systems, but for the majority, a couple of days of bedrest, aspirin, orange juice and chicken soup is all it takes to ride it out, and the common cold has not been a serious risk to society since the turn of the 20th century.

Posters that first emerged with the flu vaccine were like a scene from "Gangs of New York" after the bombing and warring in the streets of The Five Points. Bodies lined up in the street, holding candles so relatives might identify them. Parallels made to the PLAGUE, as Jo48 pointed out. All of us 'cattle's' ears perked up immediately. Huh? Wtf? In case you arent making the connection - those are scare tactics.

If I was a parent (God had another plan), I would rather assume responsibility for any harm to my child, than believe the harm or death was caused by his doctor, school nurse, or my politicians. Im sure his doctor, school nurse, and those politicians would rather I didnt believe that too. Reality is, either way, the parent will feel responsible. If I had only vaccinated....If only I had not vaccinated...there are no guarantees.

How do those compromised immune systems benefit, if you can still catch the common cold, MMR, and all the rest anyway? What has been truely erradicated after decades of vaccination - maybe polio?

Ebola is a serious risk to society. I guess the bubonic plague is a serious risk to society, although we havent seen an outbreak of that in about 500 years. When outbreaks start occuring in the US, then you will see a rise in demand for the vaccine. Vaccines that for the most part, dont exist - or that are not readily available in your local doctors office.

We dont have a vaccine for HIV. Why not? Should HIV kids be kept home too? Should Hep C kids be kept home? We dont have a vaccine because those viruses evolve and mutate. All viruses evolve and mutate eventually.

Isnt it just simpler that those few that have so very much to fear from natural human contact be kept home instead? Yes, I think so. But I would never tell their parents that they are forced to keep them home. As you say, its the parents responsibility whether or not they want their child's life risked in Public School.

Just like Granny and Jo, I am getting old, and there is nothing forcing me to stay in the US since there are no children or grandchildren to keep me here. Likewise, there is nothing forcing anyone with children to stay either. Even if they passed a law against expatriating, everybody can just sneak across our southern border - and ironically in the opposite direction for once

And I would have to ask about visitors from other countries - will we have check points now at all airports and other ports of entry demanding immunization cards along with passports? I guess we will naturally close our southern border completely due to this serious risk.
For someone who has an injury it is indeed 100%.
Statistics tell us about groups, not individuals. What statistics tell us is risk, and vaccine refusers have a fundamentally flawed approach to risk assessment. They do not vaccinate their kids, but they do give them the keys to the car.

I am sorry about your FIL. If he were to be treated today the outcome might be different.

I was not implying that you are Baptist. However, if someone are is a member of just about any mainstream religion, his church probably has no religious objections to vaccination. If it does not, he is being dishonest if he claims a religious vaccine exemption.

As far as the abortion issue is concerned, there is no tissue obtained directly from abortions used to make vaccines. The cell lines used are derived from such tissue, but it is many cell divisions removed from the parent cells. The Catholic Church, despite its strong stand against abortion, believes it is ethical to use such vaccines if there are no alternatives because of the massive benefit of preventing disease and because the abortion was not done specifically to produce tissue to use in making vaccines.

Thus, for a Catholic to claim his religion forbids vaccination would be to go against what the leaders of his church say.

Your statements about flu illustrate my point about risk assessment. Flu is a potentially dangerous disease, killing thousands of people annually. Ask an infectious disease expert, and he will tell you that with a flu season where there is a well matched flu vaccine, vaccinated people do not end up in the
ICU or dead. This year's vaccine was not well matched. Until we have a universal flu vaccine, that is going to happen sometimes. More often than not, though, the experts get a good match.

Why do you accuse pro vaccine material of fearmongering when the anti-vax people have nothing to support their position but fear?

Yes, viruses mutate, some more rapidly than others. HIV changes enough that so far no vaccine is available. Ebola is not a serious threat in the US because it must be imported. Plague still exists in the U.S., but only in some areas, and controlling vermin reduces risk of exposure. There is a vaccine for it, by the w,ay. DH took it when he was in the Army.

Kids with HIV and hep C do not need to be kept home because their risk (there is that word again) of exposing another child is low.

Kids who have medical contraindications to vaccination get the protection of herd immunity for free. Most of them would be vaccinated if it were possible. At times of severe vulnerability, like right after chemo, they ,will be kept home. They should not have to stay at home because healthy kids a. Re not vaccinated. Yes, there are other things they might catch, but we need to prevent what we can. It's not as if we should not use any vaccines because there are diseases vaccines cannot prevent.

As far as visitors are concerned, I favor requiring them to be vaccinated. Just submit a vaccine record with your passport at immigration. That applies to citizens, too. You should not be able to enter the country if you are not immunized, particularly to measles. Right now you cannot leave
Pakistan without showing you have been vaccinated for polio. The country has not eliminated it yet and does not want to be responsible for spreading it.

Some countries already require certain vaccines. That is nothing new.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ConeyGirl52 View Post
I would say what has changed is a lot of parents have noticed problems shortly after vaccination, with no one offering any explanation other than to agressively claim it definately wasnt the vaccine. People have built and maintained something like 98,000 websites regarding this problem.

Forums for Hep C and HIV/AIDs do not see that much activity.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/vis/...ements/mmr.pdf

The CDC reports that people who show an allergic reaction to neomycin, or any other component in the vaccine should not get the MMR vaccine.

Aside from being in Neosporin ointment, how many one to six year olds make it through those ages without ever needing or using neomycin? How would that parent know their child was allergic to that or any other ingredient in that vaccine?

Even if Neosporin ointment was used on an infant, how serious of a reaction would they have from a small topical treatment?
It is hard for parents to understand that when they are told that a vaccine did not cause their child's problem, it is because the problem happens just as often before the vaccine as afterwards. All those websites do not mean vaccines caused the problems described in them.

Even a small amount of something can cause an allergic reaction. There is no way to know about an allergy until one has a reaction. Testing could be done, but it would be too expensive to test everyone who is getting a vaccine.

On iPad. Please excuse errors.
 
Old 06-06-2015, 06:29 AM
 
5,647 posts, read 3,198,175 times
Reputation: 6629
Show your vaccination records at the airport, IF you even have them after 50 years? Ever been through JFK during peak travel times?????? They are going to check every passenger's immunization records? Children need this. Adults need that. Who is in a high risk category and need others? Imagine how LONG it would take to get through Security in a major airport????????

Yes, way back when it was required to have a Small Pox vaccination, but ONE shot and was stamped on your Passport. American citizens don't need a Passport to travel from State to State on a plane.

I flew to NY during the Ebola scare. Panic? TSA was making a JOKE about that asking little old ladies in wheelchairs if they had been on safari in Africa recently. Ebola! Can you just imagine what their reaction would having to check every passenger's vaccination records for Measles, or horror, the FLU?

Are you people serious????? Hey, Honey, since we have no PROOF, or not fully up-to-date, of our vaccinations, let's just DRIVE instead.
Checkpoints at all state borders? lol
 
Old 06-06-2015, 07:54 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,980 posts, read 98,832,039 times
Reputation: 31396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Show your vaccination records at the airport, IF you even have them after 50 years? Ever been through JFK during peak travel times?????? They are going to check every passenger's immunization records? Children need this. Adults need that. Who is in a high risk category and need others? Imagine how LONG it would take to get through Security in a major airport????????

Yes, way back when it was required to have a Small Pox vaccination, but ONE shot and was stamped on your Passport. American citizens don't need a Passport to travel from State to State on a plane.

I flew to NY during the Ebola scare. Panic? TSA was making a JOKE about that asking little old ladies in wheelchairs if they had been on safari in Africa recently. Ebola! Can you just imagine what their reaction would having to check every passenger's vaccination records for Measles, or horror, the FLU?

Are you people serious????? Hey, Honey, since we have no PROOF, or not fully up-to-date, of our vaccinations, let's just DRIVE instead.
Checkpoints at all state borders? lol
Would you mind quoting a post with anyone saying that? I seem to have missed it.
 
Old 06-06-2015, 08:02 AM
 
Location: Subconscious Syncope, USA (Northeastern US)
2,367 posts, read 1,524,054 times
Reputation: 3814
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
For someone who has an injury it is indeed 100%.

Your statements about flu illustrate my point about risk assessment. Flu is a potentially dangerous disease, killing thousands of people annually. Ask an infectious disease expert, and he will tell you that with a flu season where there is a well matched flu vaccine, vaccinated people do not end up in the
ICU or dead. This year's vaccine was not well matched. Until we have a universal flu vaccine, that is going to happen sometimes. More often than not, though, the experts get a good match.

Why do you accuse pro vaccine material of fearmongering when the anti-vax people have nothing to support their position but fear?

Some countries already require certain vaccines. That is nothing new.

It is hard for parents to understand that when they are told that a vaccine did not cause their child's problem, it is because the problem happens just as often before the vaccine as afterwards. All those websites do not mean vaccines caused the problems described in them.

Even a small amount of something can cause an allergic reaction. There is no way to know about an allergy until one has a reaction. Testing could be done, but it would be too expensive to test everyone who is getting a vaccine.

On iPad. Please excuse errors.
I would first state that I am religous, but I do not believe that "faith healing" is 100% effective in people experiencing any problems. For me to believe in good, I have to believe in evil, and as the song says "puzzling you is the nature of my (Satan, Lucifer, evil's, etc) game."

At the same time, doctors and scientists are just as susceptible to be "puzzled and puzzling others" as anyone else is - from my religous perspective. They are not God, and cannot, as matter-of-factly put a theory forth on the amount of hairs on any given head like God is said to be able to do accurately and instantly.

I do believe many educated people have the inflated-ego to put forth a current theory as undeniable fact - even though scientists easily disagree with each other. Being poor and having no certficate from a college to prove you have a working brain, does not equate that those people you (rhetorical, and necessarily you personally) talk down too are complete babbling idiots either.

My tetnus story is an example of that. I was definately going to die an excrutating death within 12 days. I would not claim "faith healing" prevented my death from occuring. I did not actively focus on God and exhaustively pray for that not to happen - in fact, I did not pray at all, but obviously that statement was not accurate, as I did not die or experience anything other than a normal healing process my body was able to perform in spite of having what could be said to be a compromised immune system that I have lived with since at least 1993 (approx 20 years).

There are reports and studies that rationally and educatedly show that pro-flu vaccination 'facts' can be more harmful than other methods of preventing the flu, as intelligently as those 'facts' themselves were formed and presented.

To answer your question, short and sweet, how could it not be guessed that using images and even non-related diseases that carry us back to at least 1918-1919 in the US to promote widespread use of the vaccine would NOT raise at lease some if not all eyebrows of the masses? Is there not a more intelligent way to encourage us to accept the pro-vaccination 'facts' than these scare tactics?

Are scientists and governments all 'good'?

You merely need to go back to 1932 to Tuskegee, Alabama to see that they are not. There may even be more vivid and recent examples like the controversy envolving the Gulf War Vets and their vaccinations, but Tuskegee is the one that comes to mind for me.

The Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment

- this experiment is well documented and undisputed. The only thing that is arguable is whether these poor folks were actually given syphillis to begin with. This article states they were not, but other experts state they were. I guess a pompous scientist and/or government official would write this community off as "collateral damage for the benefit of the greater good." Im sure that community and its descendants would not agree with those scientists and government officials. My religous prespective feels Satan (evil) was "puzzling" somebody. Perhaps everybody involved with Tuskegee on both ends of that game.

Here are some of the facts on Nutrition, as missterri has been repeatedly stating:

http://stevemark122000.hubpages.com/...he-Flu-Vaccine

The only thing I dispute in this mere hub is selectively using B Vitamins. A B-Complex should be used, and a nutritionist should certainly understand why.

Here is some of the science behind this hub article in regard to vitamin D3 -

Randomized trial of vitamin D supplementation to prevent seasonal influenza A in schoolchildren

It can hardly be stated that side effects of probiotics and vitamin D3 are as harmful to the body as aluminum, mercury and formaldehyde - just to name a few. Our bodies will simply release most vitamins that we dont need when we urinate or deficate. Heavy metals build up and stay with us for a lifetime.

I agree with you that testing is not realistic when it comes to MMR. I have worked for an allergist, and he had no way in his office to test anyone for an antibiotic allergy that I ever became aware of. He was geared to mold fungus dust pollen and things like that.

However, if the ability was readily available, the cost would be negligible compared to the cost of sustaining an impaired life, or burying a child.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=26&v=PyM2xRAbVvE

You have extremes everywhere - people who rely (or try to) solely on "faith healing" - and, yes! There are documented cases of people who cleared all sorts of conditions from their body through practices such as visual imaging. In contrast, I also understand that, "The good Lord helps those that help themselves."

Last edited by ConeyGirl52; 06-06-2015 at 08:57 AM..
 
Old 06-06-2015, 08:18 AM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,401 posts, read 9,551,969 times
Reputation: 7421
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConeyGirl52 View Post
I would say what has changed is a lot of parents have noticed problems shortly after vaccination, with no one offering any explanation other than to agressively claim it definately wasnt the vaccine. People have built and maintained something like 98,000 websites regarding this problem.

Forums for Hep C and HIV/AIDs do not see that much activity.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/vis/...ements/mmr.pdf

The CDC reports that people who show an allergic reaction to neomycin, or any other component in the vaccine should not get the MMR vaccine.

Aside from being in Neosporin ointment, how many one to six year olds make it through those ages without ever needing or using neomycin? How would that parent know their child was allergic to that or any other ingredient in that vaccine?

Even if Neosporin ointment was used on an infant, how serious of a reaction would they have from a small topical treatment?
“The only thing different about that day was that shot:” Did a trip to the doctor kill a healthy 12-year-old girl? | FOX6Now.com
With unaccountable deaths and injuries like this I can see why some parents would rather wait for the chance with the illness than take the chance now, even if it's one in a million. If your kid is the millionth its hard.

This is what I feared as a backlash from a vaccine war. It's hard to find any credible info. Creating a war on the unvaccinated is going to lead to confusion, and a lack of transparency.
Parents might be willing to take one for the heard until that turns into their kid dying for the herd. So we have two sides not wanting the other side to "POTENTIALLY" kill their kids. I'm predicting this new campaign will be a mess.

Mommy website forums are having to be shut down because of the violent threats from both sides. It's ridiculous.

Last edited by PoppySead; 06-06-2015 at 09:23 AM..
 
Old 06-06-2015, 08:42 AM
 
8,542 posts, read 5,266,553 times
Reputation: 9110
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
I was not implying that you are Baptist. However, if someone are is a member of just about any mainstream religion, his church probably has no religious objections to vaccination. If it does not, he is being dishonest if he claims a religious vaccine exemption.

As far as the abortion issue is concerned, there is no tissue obtained directly from abortions used to make vaccines. The cell lines used are derived from such tissue, but it is many cell divisions removed from the parent cells. The Catholic Church, despite its strong stand against abortion, believes it is ethical to use such vaccines if there are no alternatives because of the massive benefit of preventing disease and because the abortion was not done specifically to produce tissue to use in making vaccines.

Thus, for a Catholic to claim his religion forbids vaccination would be to go against what the leaders of his church say.
This is so arrogant. For many, their religious views don't subscribe 100% with one religious authority or another. Many people are religious without being a part of organized religion. Just because the pope is willing to accept vaccines that have been made with cells derived via aborted fetal cells, does not mean that all Christians or even people with their own religious views will agree with his interpretation. Other people's religious views are not for you or the state or the school district to decide. Religion is personal for many.

Last edited by MissTerri; 06-06-2015 at 08:51 AM..
 
Old 06-06-2015, 08:52 AM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,401 posts, read 9,551,969 times
Reputation: 7421
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
For someone who has an injury it is indeed 100%.
Statistics tell us about groups, not individuals. What statistics tell us is risk, and vaccine refusers have a fundamentally flawed approach to risk assessment. They do not vaccinate their kids, but they do give them the keys to the car.

I am sorry about your FIL. If he were to be treated today the outcome might be different.

I was not implying that you are Baptist. However, if someone are is a member of just about any mainstream religion, his church probably has no religious objections to vaccination. If it does not, he is being dishonest if he claims a religious vaccine exemption.

As far as the abortion issue is concerned, there is no tissue obtained directly from abortions used to make vaccines. The cell lines used are derived from such tissue, but it is many cell divisions removed from the parent cells. The Catholic Church, despite its strong stand against abortion, believes it is ethical to use such vaccines if there are no alternatives because of the massive benefit of preventing disease and because the abortion was not done specifically to produce tissue to use in making vaccines.

Thus, for a Catholic to claim his religion forbids vaccination would be to go against what the leaders of his church say.

Your statements about flu illustrate my point about risk assessment. Flu is a potentially dangerous disease, killing thousands of people annually. Ask an infectious disease expert, and he will tell you that with a flu season where there is a well matched flu vaccine, vaccinated people do not end up in the
ICU or dead. This year's vaccine was not well matched. Until we have a universal flu vaccine, that is going to happen sometimes. More often than not, though, the experts get a good match.

Why do you accuse pro vaccine material of fearmongering when the anti-vax people have nothing to support their position but fear?

Yes, viruses mutate, some more rapidly than others. HIV changes enough that so far no vaccine is available. Ebola is not a serious threat in the US because it must be imported. Plague still exists in the U.S., but only in some areas, and controlling vermin reduces risk of exposure. There is a vaccine for it, by the w,ay. DH took it when he was in the Army.

Kids with HIV and hep C do not need to be kept home because their risk (there is that word again) of exposing another child is low.

Kids who have medical contraindications to vaccination get the protection of herd immunity for free. Most of them would be vaccinated if it were possible. At times of severe vulnerability, like right after chemo, they ,will be kept home. They should not have to stay at home because healthy kids a. Re not vaccinated. Yes, there are other things they might catch, but we need to prevent what we can. It's not as if we should not use any vaccines because there are diseases vaccines cannot prevent.

As far as visitors are concerned, I favor requiring them to be vaccinated. Just submit a vaccine record with your passport at immigration. That applies to citizens, too. You should not be able to enter the country if you are not immunized, particularly to measles. Right now you cannot leave
Pakistan without showing you have been vaccinated for polio. The country has not eliminated it yet and does not want to be responsible for spreading it.

Some countries already require certain vaccines. That is nothing new.




It is hard for parents to understand that when they are told that a vaccine did not cause their child's problem, it is because the problem happens just as often before the vaccine as afterwards. All those websites do not mean vaccines caused the problems described in them.

Even a small amount of something can cause an allergic reaction. There is no way to know about an allergy until one has a reaction. Testing could be done, but it would be too expensive to test everyone who is getting a vaccine.

On iPad. Please excuse errors.
Still can't seem to find the names in front of your replies to know who your talking to but.....I'll just leave it all be because like you I'm using a pad.

I admire this experiment to rid the world of infectious diseases, I really do. But....even if the risk of injuries or death are low it won't look so good as an accomplishment if people were coerced and threatened to participate for the greater good. Especially when the facts are that some of these kids will suffer that small chance of death or injury. This WILL cause a problem.
Volunteer, yes great, threatened participation, not so ethical.

Science is not a religion, it's supposed to be challenged. You can't use studies like you're quoting the bible . There's no God of science. A study only last in its valid state until proven otherwise. Science doesn't claim perfection so I would be careful with that.

There are a lot of things we don't do that other countries do for good reasons.

Last edited by PoppySead; 06-06-2015 at 09:22 AM..
 
Old 06-06-2015, 09:14 AM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,401 posts, read 9,551,969 times
Reputation: 7421
The biggest problem with the medical community is not all the mistakes they are making, its not owning up to them.
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