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Old 06-06-2015, 10:31 PM
 
Location: Subconscious Syncope, USA (Northeastern US)
2,367 posts, read 1,534,380 times
Reputation: 3814

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Why are you trying so hard to convince me to be fearful? I said that I am not afraid and I'm not. I've known many others who have had these illnesses besides myself. Death is very rare. Like I said, if you want to live in fear, you can but it's weird how hard you are trying to convince me to also live in fear.
Id give you rep but the thread wont let me. I agree with the weirdness.

 
Old 06-06-2015, 10:33 PM
 
8,547 posts, read 5,307,864 times
Reputation: 9120
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
True, but its perfectly legitimate to inquire as to the source and reasons for those beliefs. The request for a religious exemption can be denied if the authority charged with granting such exemptions determines the beliefs are not religious in nature, but simply a personal desire to avoid vaccination. *

*In states that have religious, but not personal exemptions from vaccination.
I've noticed that you guys are very big on deferring to authority and allowing authorities to make decisions for you. Many of us who are against forced vaccination believe that individuals should be given information but then left to decide for themselves. That's probably a major reason why the two sides will never agree on this.
 
Old 06-06-2015, 10:36 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,096 posts, read 99,210,314 times
Reputation: 31574
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
I've had the flu, chicken pox and rotavirus and I would say that I think some of the "pro-vaxx for everyone" posters have deeply overblown these illnesses in attempt to scare people into getting vaccinated for them.
Not everyone has mild cases of these diseases. There were 141 pediatric deaths from flu this past winter. Most pedi deaths from flu occur to unimmunized kids and many have no pre-existing conditions. One of my daughters had a hellacious case of flu st age 9 and almost needed to be hospitalized. She was sick for two weeks. The next year when flu shots came out she said anything would be better than the flu. She had no pre-existing conditions. Both my kids were pretty sick with chickenpox. With rotavirus, prior to immunization, most kids had a case by age 5. Subsequent cases are less severe. If you remember rv, you were probably older than 5 and on your second case. It is not fear-mongering to say these diseases can be serious.
 
Old 06-06-2015, 10:43 PM
 
Location: Subconscious Syncope, USA (Northeastern US)
2,367 posts, read 1,534,380 times
Reputation: 3814
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
Not everyone has mild cases of these diseases. There were 141 pediatric deaths from flu this past winter. Most pedi deaths from flu occur to unimmunized kids and many have no pre-existing conditions. One of my daughters had a hellacious case of flu st age 9 and almost needed to be hospitalized. She was sick for two weeks. The next year when flu shots came out she said anything would be better than the flu. She had no pre-existing conditions. Both my kids were pretty sick with chickenpox. With rotavirus, prior to immunization, most kids had a case by age 5. Subsequent cases are less severe. If you remember rv, you were probably older than 5 and on your second case. It is not fear-mongering to say these diseases can be serious.
So you have good reason to make sure your child is vaccinated. You have no good reason to make sure everyone elses kids is too, especially if they have the fortified immune system to never have been diagnosed with the flu, or only spent a couple days riding it out - and didnt need hosptilzation.

What about doctors and hospitals, are you attempting to dumb them down and drive them out of business?
 
Old 06-07-2015, 12:12 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,096 posts, read 99,210,314 times
Reputation: 31574
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConeyGirl52 View Post

What about doctors and hospitals, are you attempting to dumb them down and drive them out of business?
Could you explain???
 
Old 06-07-2015, 12:16 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,619 posts, read 26,315,697 times
Reputation: 26715
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConeyGirl52 View Post
Abortion is against the teachings of the Catholic Church. Now we are going in circles.
The Catholic Church on vaccines:

www.ncbcenter.org/page.aspx?pid=1284

The advice is to use vaccines not using material from problematic cell lines, if possible, and to lobby for vaccines that do not use those cell lines.

"Am I free to refuse to vaccinate myself or my children on the grounds of conscience?

One must follow certain conscience even if it errs, but there is a responsibility to inform one's conscience properly. There would seem to be no proper grounds for refusing immunization against dangerous contagious disease, for example rubella, especially in light of the concern we should all have for the health of our children, public health, and the common good."

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Why are you trying so hard to convince me to be fearful? I said that I am not afraid and I'm not. I've known many others who have had these illnesses besides myself. Death is very rare. Like I said, if you want to live in fear, you can but it's weird how hard you are trying to convince me to also live in fear.
It's weird how hard you try to convince people not to vaccinate when our children engage in activities every day that put them at risks many orders of magnitude greater than the risks of vaccines. Why do you try so hard to make people fearful of vaccines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
I've noticed that you guys are very big on deferring to authority and allowing authorities to make decisions for you. Many of us who are against forced vaccination believe that individuals should be given information but then left to decide for themselves. That's probably a major reason why the two sides will never agree on this.
No one is forced to vaccinate. To continue to argue that does not help your cause.

When you decide not to vaccinate, you are deferring to the authority of the anti-vaccine woo masters who have absolutely no evidence to support their stance. I prefer to defer to the authority of scientists who develop vaccines, understand their molecular biology, and make recommendations based on sound knowledge of their benefits and risks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConeyGirl52 View Post
So you have good reason to make sure your child is vaccinated. You have no good reason to make sure everyone elses kids is too, especially if they have the fortified immune system to never have been diagnosed with the flu, or only spent a couple days riding it out - and didnt need hosptilzation.

What about doctors and hospitals, are you attempting to dumb them down and drive them out of business?
Perfectly healthy kids can get the flu. A few such kids die from it each year. If you think you have "fortified" your immune system and you or your kids will never get it, you are living in la la land.

Doctors and hospitals give vaccines. How on earth could anything I say "dumb them down and drive them out of business"? The only thing I can think of is that they would have fewer sick patients to take care of, so in a sense what you say is true. Keeping one patient out of the ICU would lose a hospital thousands of dollars. Keep a few thousand people out of the hospital and pretty soon we are talking about losses in the millions. But, hey, all that money would have come out of your pocket and mine. What's not to like?

Last edited by suzy_q2010; 06-07-2015 at 12:30 AM..
 
Old 06-07-2015, 12:21 AM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,401 posts, read 9,584,126 times
Reputation: 7421
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
I halve never said religious people are liars. I have said non-religious people who claim religious exemptions are lying. I also still think that if you are a nominal member of a religious denomination that does not oppose vaccination that your claim for an exemption for a religious reasons is on shaky ground.

You can question medicine all you wish, but the science behind vaccines is on solid ground. The vaccine refusers have not a single valid reason to not vaccinate any healthy child. The risk is just too small. Meanwhile, they let kids participate in risky activities every single day. How many anti-vax moms drive and use cell phones - with their children in the car?k

What legal things do you think people can do which harm others without consequences? Do those things and we will see you in court.




Everyone in California will still have a right to a public education if this law passes. There will be requirements to take advantage of it. If you choose not to follow the rules, you are the one who is responsible for the consequences, not the government.



As has been pointed out, schools are not paid for solely by people who have kids. If someone who chooses to be childless has to pay taxes, so should someone who chooses not to vaccinate.



There is no tissue from abortions actually in vaccines. Virus for some vaccines is grown in cells that are many generations distant from the originally aborted cells. It is incorrect to imply that abortions are being done in order to make vaccines. The abortions that provided the cells cannot be undone. Using the tissue to start cell lines that are used to grow virus for vaccines in a sense provides a redeeming purpose for those abortions.

Get one untaxed person in contact with someone with measles and we have one case of measles unless the unvaxed person exposes dozens more who are also unvaxed. That is where increasing the vax rate helps.



The CDC never advocated a mandate for circumcision. It has only said there are medical benefits to the procedure that outweigh the risks.



We will still have outbreaks, but with high vaccination rates there will be fewer cases per outbreak.

One person's choice should not hurt another person. Your choice to not vaccinate can lead to other people getting sick. When the situation gets to the point where diseases that have been eliminated start resurging, mandates are justified.
Gosh Suzy, I'm so flattered at the amount of posts you've felt compelled to reply to .

You'll have to forgive me,I won't bother wasting my time this go around. I won't play the you might kill my kid game with you, it's childish.

I didn't circumcise my baby boy, and he's pretty happy intact so I obviously don't agree with the CDC. I think it's gross to recommend cutting a boys penis to prevent infections. Yikes! I'll cross that bridge when it comes. I hope it doesn't follow the path that their vaccine campaign is going on. Seems pretty similar from the starting gate. Since these mandates have started to hit home I must say, I get worried every time the CDC starts recommending things.

Regardless of what you say, there is no way this isn't threatening and coercing parents to vaccinate. It is what it is. I still don't think this is the wise choice, why would I? So many better ways to handle this and I've stated that until I have a big blue face.

Oh, and go ahead and sue me for selling you food, driving, riding my bike, driving a bus, plane, train, etc, etc. For all those things are more likely to get you ill or injured, or dead as a door nail than the measles. You'll be lucky you can sue, I have no "act" protecting me from it like the drug companies do. Have at it.
 
Old 06-07-2015, 12:57 AM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,401 posts, read 9,584,126 times
Reputation: 7421
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Not all people who are religious are a part of an organized religion and their interpretation of the bible or whatever other religious doctrine may differ from the "leader of the catholic church".
Christian Scientist I think are one organization that's against it.
But, you are correct, most are like this lady....I'll leave a link. These people here will sound alarms and gather people. They feel pretty strongly about it. They also fear that eventually they will make all homeschoolers vaccinate which will be like the Civil War happening to these people. lol

http://www.livingwhole.org/god-does-...port-vaccines/

As an atheists I'd have to agree, if they start picking on home school I'll be pretty pissed.
 
Old 06-07-2015, 01:28 AM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,401 posts, read 9,584,126 times
Reputation: 7421
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
I

If the rest of us vaccinate, the risk that a child with a true medical exemption will be exposed to a vaccine preventable disease decreases immensely, whether he is in school or not.


The CDC never suggested that circumcision be mandatory. It only said the medical benefits exceed the risk.

Mandates are justified because vaccine preventable diseases that had been eliminated are coming back. It will be interesting to see how many people think sending their kid to school trumps any concerns they have about vaccines.
You are something else. Welcome to my ignore list Suzyq. I'm sure we both agree this is for the best.
 
Old 06-07-2015, 06:45 AM
 
Location: Subconscious Syncope, USA (Northeastern US)
2,367 posts, read 1,534,380 times
Reputation: 3814
Suzy Q,

I havent seen where anyone has tried to stop anyone from using vaccines. You either enjoy an amazing reading comprehension problem, or have some other motive for flat out lying and twisting others words to suit your perception of them, or need to put forth a particular agenda that only you know.

I have personally told you and others they have a right to exercize their freedom of choice. For people who want and feel they need the vaccine, by all means - get it! A freedom you seem to feel they should be forced to give up. I cant help but question whether you are actually American, as America was founded on principles of freedom.

The church is the same way regarding freedom - they have been gracious enough to give people a way around the 'abortion portion' so if followers are as fearful as you and a few others are, they may without risk to their conscience and faith, pursue vaccination. I personally think that is a wonderful and proper stance to take on the issue.

Do you know what a Papal Bull is? Apparently, not. It is an Order from the Pope. The Pope is the head shepherd of the flock that comprises the Roman Catholic Church.

Just because a Roman Catholic is free to do something doesnt mean they have to. And a Papal Bull that forces lifelong believers to suddenly switch streams would not be in the best interest of the Roman Catholic Church.

In the 1100's, Pope Innocent III issued a Bull regarding Witchcraft - based on the theory of 'thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". Obviously, in the then known world of the Roman Catholic Church, much like the flu now, witches were percieved to be a serious problem, lol.

The Cuomos in New York state are a Roman Catholic family that have a history in politics. Although they may strictly follow historical beliefs and teachings of the Church, they cannot force constituents to also do so, and expect to remain in politics.

As for the dumbing down - Let's say in theory, the flu vaccine manages to pretty much erradicate the flu for several decades, and then suddenly someone shows up in the ER or a Doctors office somewhere with it

How would that Doctor treat it when he hasnt encountered it in several decades? A fresh young intern may have never seen a case of it in their lifetime, it could also be easily misdiagnosed - just like I was with an ectopic pregnancy that was diagnosed as a miscarriage and treated as such.

If people start to percieve Healthcare in the US as a group of totalitarian Nazis, or start to believe Medicine is flat out lying to them, they will either learn to treat their own problems, or only seek assistance when they are on death's door anyway.

We cant talk about Tuskegee although it is an undisputed fact. We cant talk about supplements and nutrition, although they and their benefits are just as factual as the benefits of the flu vaccine. In both cases, you can catch the flu anyway. But its okay to risk those kids that cant take the vaccine, as long as everyone elses kids have had the flu shot??

Im sorry, but how does that even make sense? If members of the herd are not 100% protected, how can anyone present as fact that people who have medical reasons to avoid the vaccine will be protected?

Some said to me on these forums that you are either a shill for the CDC or an investor in the manufacturer of the vaccine. At first I thought maybe not, but even your constant stubborness, closed-mindedness, lying, and twisting is starting to turn my perception of you in that direction.

I think Im done here too. But please continue to only talk to yourself. Laters.

P.S. Healthcare in the US cannot become a group of totalitarian Nazis, until the citizen is no longer forced by law to pay for it. And, it is provided 'free of charge' by our government, probably funded by the corporations doing business here. AND, even then, we still have the Constitution to protect our freedoms. Those are several very big hurdles to get over.

Last edited by ConeyGirl52; 06-07-2015 at 07:38 AM.. Reason: spelling, grammar and to clarify.
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