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Old 06-12-2015, 07:14 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,541 posts, read 26,155,710 times
Reputation: 26548

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
What would be the point of that? Nothing would ever change your mind. Nothing. You are more heavily invested in vaccinations and all things mainstream health then anyone I have ever encountered.
The point of that is that the science you are claiming supports your beliefs does not exist. There is no science that supports not vaccinating. When you say that there is "science on both sides" it is reasonable for us to ask you what the science for your side is.

I support vaccination because it is safe, effective, and one of the greatest achievements of medicine in human history.

I support mainstream medicine because it is supported by scientific evidence. Medical recommendations may change as new evidence is uncovered, but that is a strength, not a weakness.

 
Old 06-12-2015, 07:45 PM
 
8,317 posts, read 8,596,327 times
Reputation: 25975
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Your assumptions about me and the studies I have read are incorrect. For you to claim that vaccines are risk free is just plain wrong. There are risks to both decisions. My doctor recognizes that and I assume she knows more then you. You think you know, but you clearly don't. You people use and abuse the label of science to push your way. You belittle rather then even attempt to understand people who may have different points of view regarding health and nutrition then you. It's not black and white.
No one here says they are risk free and you know it. I think your use of that term "risk free" is a deliberate attempt to distort our point of view. Yes, there are risks to both decisions, but the risks involved in vaccinating are perhaps 1% of the risk involved in not vaccinating. I compare it to showing that 500 people (mostly children) died from measles every year and--that at the very outside--perhaps 7 people die from effects related to the vaccine. What you mistake for "belittling" is a simple attempt to educate the unknowing about vaccinating. Its no more and no less. Lastly, don't you think its a bit much for the rest of us to have to rely on an unnamed doctor as a source of authority for anything?? We cite authorities for most of what we claim precisely because you can't make that up, or distort someone's opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tlvancouver View Post
I didn't say vaccines are "risk free", nothing in life is. I said the risks are in no way comparable to the risks of not vaccinating.

As for your doctor, without knowing them I can't say. My doctor supports vaccination. Normally that would mean it's a "tie" except an overwhelming number of doctors and nurses support immunization for their patients and their own kids. In fact the only "doctor" I have ever met who didn't support vaccines was a chiropractor who did have some very very strange views on "healthcare" . Didn't go back to him.

I understand you believe differently. Really really believing something doesn't make it true. I am not belittling you at all, I am simply not willing to give credence to strongly held "feelings" in the face of facts and data. Please don't assume that because I'm relatively new to this discussion that I haven't done a significant amount of due diligence before I vaccinated my own children. Due diligence I will continue to do when faced with medical decisions.
She uses the term "risk free" intentionally. She knows we've never said that and refuses to acknowledge that. This is one reason why these arguments are so impossible. None are so blind as those who will not see. She will talk about science on "both sides of the issue" and than never present a single study, a single medical journal article, or name any reputable physicians that support her point of view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
FFS, I never said that science says that vaccines are riskier then the disease. I said that there are risks to either decision. There are also different ways to approach health via nutrition, herbs, etc. Just because you guys dismiss these ways does not mean they are not valid. You want your mandates and you got them. You want to dictate what people can do with their bodies, you got it. Why don't you go celebrate your win atop a high horse somewhere. I know you have a herd somewhere.
Proper nutrition can benefit health. I remain unconvinced there are any particular benefits to herbs. Proper nutrition will not make a body totally immune to specific viruses and bacteria. Therefore, its incorrect to suggest that is an "alternative" to vaccination. Rather than "dictate to people" what we instead propose is that you want to be part of a community (public education) its fair to expect you to play by the rules that everyone else does. My wife and I were very careful to see our kids got all their immunizations. If you want your children to attend public school, why do you have a right to do less than us?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
That is what the poster I replied to said. They then cleared it up.

What would be the point of that? Nothing would ever change your mind. Nothing. You are more heavily invested in vaccinations and all things mainstream health then anyone I have ever encountered.

I definitely wouldn't lump you all in the same boat. Some of you are just discussing. Some of you are promoting.
I issue a challenge one more time: Provide a list of all scientific studies that prove vaccines are dangerous. Provide a list of all reputable medical journal articles that say the risks of vaccines outweigh their benefits. Submit the names of all reputable M.D.'s and D.O.'s that believe vaccination is dangerous.

I doubt you can do it. However, if you can its going to be a very strange list.

Last edited by markg91359; 06-12-2015 at 07:56 PM..
 
Old 06-12-2015, 10:16 PM
 
Location: BC, Arizona
1,170 posts, read 748,907 times
Reputation: 2377
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
That is what the poster I replied to said. They then cleared it up.

.
Please quote where I ever said vaccines are risk free? Misrepresenting others' views doesn't strengthen yours.

I will repeat...the risk of vaccines is very very minor compared to the risk of the illnesses they prevent.

In my opinion (and in the opinion of every reputable doctor on the topic) the risk is well worth it. It's not that I don't have empathy in the unlikely event a vaccine does cause an adverse reaction it's that I believe that very remote risk is worth accepting for the known benefits of vaccines.
 
Old 06-12-2015, 10:50 PM
 
8,546 posts, read 5,273,203 times
Reputation: 9115
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlvancouver View Post
Please quote where I ever said vaccines are risk free? Misrepresenting others' views doesn't strengthen yours.
I thought we had already cleared this misunderstanding up but since you and others cannot understand that it was a misunderstanding which I already acknowledged and move on with your lives I'll show the quote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tlvancouver View Post
There are very real risks that we as parents should be concerned about, all of the established research and science proves that vaccines are not one of them.
This quote as well sounded like it was minimizing any risk from vaccines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tlvancouver View Post
A parent is deciding to accept the risk of illness for their child (and others around them) instead of a quick needle.
Bye.
 
Old 06-12-2015, 11:46 PM
 
Location: BC, Arizona
1,170 posts, read 748,907 times
Reputation: 2377
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post

This quote as well sounded like it was minimizing any risk from vaccines.

.
That's entirely accurate. I was minimizing the risk from vaccines, particularly when contrasted against the benefits.

You seem to bundle people putting the facts forward about vaccinations into one pot.

I support healthy living, try to eat "clean", don't drink or smoke, take herbs to supplement my diet (not to replace proven pharmaceuticals but on the off chance there are some benefits), even had my daughter with a midwife (delivered in the hospital though, just in case). I'm not a blind pharma follower.

I've never posted on a forum about vaccines before but seeing the misleading information shared here really concerns me on the off chance someone researching vaccines actually believes that there is a reason that a healthy child should avoid vaccination.
 
Old 06-16-2015, 03:53 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,021 posts, read 98,892,281 times
Reputation: 31457
Back in the mid-late 70s, when I was a young nurse, I had a public health nursing job which involved a caseload of many teen moms. Most of these young women were in high school, and/or had completed perhaps 10th grade and then dropped out. These moms were unabashedly squeamish about their kids getting shots. They were very upfront about it. If you could get them to go to the doctor, they were usually OK about the immunizations.

Does this carry over to our older, college educated, high income anti-vax moms? It seems to. See this:
https://www.google.com/search?q=pict...ml%3B837%3B572

and this: https://www.google.com/search?q=pict...%3B1368%3B1368

and this: https://www.google.com/search?q=pict...2F%3B460%3B259

I think these fears are behind the "too many too soon" campaign, and other anti-vax themes. Much is made of how many shots by a certain age: https://www.google.com/search?q=pict...2F%3B460%3B259

Now it's not my favorite part of the job to give shots, especially to infants and toddlers, and I tell them and their parents that. I don't especially like to get shots, either. I usually have mixed feelings when the flu shots arrive in the falls, and I wish I were young enough to get the flu mist instead. I tell the patients and families that, too. But I also emphasize that I like keeping kids healthy.
 
Old 06-25-2015, 02:42 PM
 
8,317 posts, read 8,596,327 times
Reputation: 25975
The California Assembly passed the vaccine bill by a vote of 46-30. Apparently, some minor amendments were made to the bill, so it still has to go back to the Senate one last time.

The legislative process is a slow one. I don't see how anyone could claim this was "ramrodded through".

Its just a matter of housekeeping at this point though


California vaccine bill clears major legislative hurdle
 
Old 06-27-2015, 12:20 PM
 
28 posts, read 23,216 times
Reputation: 104
Not that this news will matter much to the anti-vaxers, but in case there are any people out there who are still on the fence:

https://www.thespainreport.com/16953...atalonia-dies/
 
Old 06-27-2015, 12:31 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
3,510 posts, read 2,798,050 times
Reputation: 6371
Quote:
Originally Posted by LolaG View Post
Not that this news will matter much to the anti-vaxers, but in case there are any people out there who are still on the fence:

https://www.thespainreport.com/16953...atalonia-dies/


Hey, at least the kid didn't become autistic and didn't die of heavy metal poisoning, the parents can gain some comfort from that I guess.


Boy Dies of Diphtheria in Spain, Parents Rejected Vaccine - ABC News

Quote:

The boy had been a resident of Olot a small city north of Barcelona and near the border with France who had not been vaccinated against the disease because his parents had opted against inoculation.


Anti vaxxers-"Can't make an omelette without cracking a few eggs."
 
Old 06-28-2015, 05:51 AM
 
Location: Glasgow Scotland
14,530 posts, read 11,516,146 times
Reputation: 21035
This is my story...my youngest son had just started school aged five, this was the late 80s , and was given two injections..days later I noticed him twitching quite a lot in his face... I tried to ignore it and didnt mention it to my son... then a few days later his body went into spasms causing jerking movements... I took him to the doctor who said to ignore it and it was a tic.... and lots of children get them... but it was getting much worse over weeks and it was embarrassing for my son and pupils in his class were noticing too.... I still didnt put the vaccinations and this behaviour together as Id never seen it before..... He had to visit the hospital doctor on a routine visit and he noticed it... and said that he shouldnt have any more vaccinations at school.. and I never did.... after six months the tics started to disappear, but it was the most worrying time of them life.. All Im saying is that I knew nothing about what could be caused by injections and would have continues to have them done if not for this school doctor so Im thankful.... I think some children are more susceptible to whats being put in their bodies and if you have any histories in your family then please think about not having them done....Also on the schools not allowing children in who havent been vaccinated....wheres their trust in the vaccines if they think a few children unvaccinated can cause vaccinated ones to be in trouble. Check out the VAERS database

Last edited by dizzybint; 06-28-2015 at 06:01 AM..
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