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Old 06-29-2015, 11:12 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,031 posts, read 98,908,697 times
Reputation: 31481

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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
If this passes, how much of an impact will this really have on keeping things like measles, mumps, etc. or whatever they are vaccinating against from spreading/preventing outbreaks? Given the tourism industry in CA and kids in CA coming into contact at public places, theme parks, etc with other kids from other states and countries that don't have such a policy with vaccines, is really that much being accomplished if this goes through?
Yes

 
Old 06-29-2015, 11:14 PM
 
Location: Liberal Coast
4,271 posts, read 4,990,096 times
Reputation: 3861
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
All the more reason for us to leave this cesspool of a state.
 
Old 06-29-2015, 11:15 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,557 posts, read 26,166,023 times
Reputation: 26585
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlvancouver View Post
It's important to challenge these myths each time so that those on the fence about vaccinating don't put their kids at known risk of childhood illness based on made up risks about vaccines.
So true.

A good source of information:

Your Baby's Best Shot: Why Vaccines Are Safe and Save Lives: 9781442215788: Medicine & Health Science Books @ Amazon.com


From the review by Wulfstan: "Yes, by not giving your child the vaccines you guard against that teeny-tiny chances of serious complications. But that is like guarding your baby from ninjas by hiding him in the middle of a swamp full of hungry crocodiles."

Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzybint View Post
no , not agreed at all... when foreign substances are put into a childs body, it needs to have a mature immune system to fight off some of the ingredients in vaccines.... Some experts suggest an immune system is not fully developed until a child is approximately 12-14 years of age, when they finally reach adult levels of antibody formation.

Thiomersal is a preservative which contains small amounts of mercury. Itís used to prevent the growth of bacteria or fungi in the vaccine. some companies have now removed this.....WHY? why do you think its been removed, what have they found out that we havent been told...
If our immune systems were not mature until we were teenagers none of us would survive infancy. Who are the "experts" telling you that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Here are some studies related to thimerosal and tics which is what dizzy posted about.

Thimerosal exposure in infants and neurodevelopmental disorders: an assessment of computerized medical records in the Vaccine Safety Datalink. - PubMed - NCBI
Thimerosal exposure in infants and developmental disorders: a retrospective cohort study in the United kingdom does not support a causal association. - PubMed - NCBI

There are also many accounts from parents reporting facial tics after getting the chicken pox vaccine and the flu vaccine specifically. Feel free to discount them if you'd like, I won't. I take ALL concerns seriously. I'm not biased in that way.
Why continue to even mention thimerosal at all? You can get all childhood vaccines, including flu vaccine without it.

The Geier is debunked here:

New Study on Thimerosal and Neurodevelopmental Disorders: I. Scientific Fraud or Just Playing with Data? at Epi Wonk

Mark Geier, one of the authors of the first article you cited, has lost his medical license in multiple states for his use of Lupron to treat autism:

"Dr. Geier, through his Institute of Chronic Illness and Genetic Centers of America, misdiagnosed autistic children with precocious puberty so he could claim that he was using Lupron on label, rather than for an unapproved, experimental indication (i.e., autism). This also allowed him to bill insurance companies for the lupron. His actions got him into hot water with various state medical boards, starting with his medical license in Maryland being suspended on April 27, 2011. Since then, one by one, 11 of his 12 medical licenses were suspended, an application for a thirteenth license in Ohio was denied, and some of those suspensions became complete revocations. The last actions I wrote about were the revocation of his license in Missouri and suspension of his Illinois license. At the time, the only state left in which Dr. Geier could practice was Hawaii.

As of April 11, 2013, that is no longer the case."

Harpocrates Speaks: Mark "Castrate 'Em" Geier's License Suspended

The evidence on vaccines and tics is inconclusive. Studies that have found a correlation have also found correlations between thimerosal exposure and better performance on some neurobehavioral tests.

MMS: Error



Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
There used to be and there still is in the flu vaccine at least. You said this in response to dizzy sharing her story about her child's thimersoal containing vaccines and tics.
Why raise concerns about thimerosal whe it is no longer in children's vaccines? Anyone getting a flu shot can ask for the version with no preservative.

"Used to be" is not a good reason to discourage people from vaccinating their children.
 
Old 06-29-2015, 11:26 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,557 posts, read 26,166,023 times
Reputation: 26585
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
If this passes, how much of an impact will this really have on keeping things like measles, mumps, etc. or whatever they are vaccinating against from spreading/preventing outbreaks? Given the tourism industry in CA and kids in CA coming into contact at public places, theme parks, etc with other kids from other states and countries that don't have such a policy with vaccines, is really that much being accomplished if this goes through?
High vaccination levels will not prevent the occasional case of a disease. Sometimes vaccines fail and a person catches the disease anyway. What high vaccinationrates can do is limit the number of cases. If there are few people in the population who are susceptible to the disease, it cannot spread. Outbreaks are kept small and epidemics prevented.
 
Old 06-29-2015, 11:37 PM
 
Location: Amongst the AZ Cactus
7,074 posts, read 4,584,462 times
Reputation: 7672
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
High vaccination levels will not prevent the occasional case of a disease. Sometimes vaccines fail and a person catches the disease anyway. What high vaccinationrates can do is limit the number of cases. If there are few people in the population who are susceptible to the disease, it cannot spread. Outbreaks are kept small and epidemics prevented.
Right, makes sense. I guess what I'm leading up to is how many kids in CA are not vaccinated/attending schools currently? If it's only a small %, and most are vaccinated, it seems at present without any law being passed, epidemics would remain small anyways and affect mostly those kids who's parents didn't vaccinate.
 
Old 06-29-2015, 11:38 PM
 
Location: Subconscious Syncope, USA (Northeastern US)
2,367 posts, read 1,526,249 times
Reputation: 3814
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlvancouver View Post
But it's a study YOU recommended?

You imply there's some conspiracy. Yet you're willing to trust them when the possibility of injury (of an ingredient not used in vaccines - very clearly set out by the poster above) is discussed.

So you concede that medical studies ALWAYS advocate vaccination. [Anyone considering NOT vaccinating their child, please re-read that!]

The "bias" you refer to is often described as a lifetime of studying illness and immunology and looking to save lives and prevent catastrophic childhood illness through medicine. The pesky "bias" for science is SO "super annoying".
Since most of the studies 'of value' are produced by the manufacturer, it appears to be a case of the fox being in charge of watching the chicken coop. Even that famous doctor (Offit, or something) that developed some vaccine, is working for the manufacturers as a consultant.

He has been torn down as much as proponents seek to build him up.

If you couple this corporate control of all things acceptable when it comes to vaccines, with whats going on in other corporate industries (i.e. mass chicken production and the advent of Salmonella Heidelberg in that industry), the banking industry, pretty much any industry left in America - you cant blame anyone to be suspicious. And, that suspicion was not created by any crackpots, but the industries themselves.

Not even Dr Gary Null blames vaccines solely for autism. We get pollutants for almost every aspect of life these days. Even our babies drink out of plastic bottles or plastic bag lined bottles, when we dont breastfeed. It may take decades for this constant bombardment to effect us, but all together with vaccines can lead to instant death.

How could anyone, no matter how highly praised, convince a mother that watched her healthy child die within a couple minutes of getting vaccinated ever convince her to vaccinate future children? I dont care if God came to her and told her do it, I doubt she would.

Why would anyone ever want to make the Medical profession look like its the patient's enemy? If force was never an issue, I would imagine most people would get their child vaccined. Its the insistance, the all or nothing approach that is off-putting and makes Medicine look like the 'bad guy'.

Medicine has a lot to offer. Science and research have a lot to offer.They are all saving my life as I type this. If I had been forced to take a previous treatment, I would not be able to take the same regimen of treatment that is said by everyone to a CURE now. I was urged strongly by every physician I encountered to take the previous treatment, knowing that something better was already on the horizon.

I had done my own research, and refused. Now, everyone tells me I made the right choice.

If my child dies from a disease, I get to blame God for that. It is God that I will ask why.

If a medicine/vaccine kills my child, I get to look at the frontline Peditrician as my child's murderer. Why would any Doctor want that? "Well, it happens in a certain percentage of cases", will do nothing console me, or increase my faith in that industry. Anyone's child - anyone's life - is much more to them that just 'a certain percentage of cases."

The louder you beat the drum the more you drive a would be follower away.

A very wise Jewish woman once said to me, "You attract more bees with honey than with vinegar." Over the course of my life, those words have proven to me to be right.
 
Old 06-30-2015, 12:05 AM
 
Location: BC, Arizona
1,170 posts, read 749,125 times
Reputation: 2377
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConeyGirl52 View Post
Since most of the studies 'of value' are produced by the manufacturer, it appears to be a case of the fox being in charge of watching the chicken coop. Even that famous doctor (Offit, or something) that developed some vaccine, is working for the manufacturers as a consultant.

He has been torn down as much as proponents seek to build him up.

If you couple this corporate control of all things acceptable when it comes to vaccines, with whats going on in other corporate industries (i.e. mass chicken production and the advent of Salmonella Heidelberg in that industry), the banking industry, pretty much any industry left in America - you cant blame anyone to be suspicious. And, that suspicion was not created by any crackpots, but the industries themselves.

Not even Dr Gary Null blames vaccines solely for autism. We get pollutants for almost every aspect of life these days. Even our babies drink out of plastic bottles or plastic bag lined bottles, when we dont breastfeed. It may take decades for this constant bombardment to effect us, but all together with vaccines can lead to instant death.

How could anyone, no matter how highly praised, convince a mother that watched her healthy child die within a couple minutes of getting vaccinated ever convince her to vaccinate future children? I dont care if God came to her and told her do it, I doubt she would.

Why would anyone ever want to make the Medical profession look like its the patient's enemy? If force was never an issue, I would imagine most people would get their child vaccined. Its the insistance, the all or nothing approach that is off-putting and makes Medicine look like the 'bad guy'.

Medicine has a lot to offer. Science and research have a lot to offer.They are all saving my life as I type this. If I had been forced to take a previous treatment, I would not be able to take the same regimen of treatment that is said by everyone to a CURE now. I was urged strongly by every physician I encountered to take the previous treatment, knowing that something better was already on the horizon.

I had done my own research, and refused. Now, everyone tells me I made the right choice.

If my child dies from a disease, I get to blame God for that. It is God that I will ask why.

If a medicine/vaccine kills my child, I get to look at the frontline Peditrician as my child's murderer. Why would any Doctor want that? "Well, it happens in a certain percentage of cases", will do nothing console me, or increase my faith in that industry. Anyone's child - anyone's life - is much more to them that just 'a certain percentage of cases."

The louder you beat the drum the more you drive a would be follower away.

A very wise Jewish woman once said to me, "You attract more bees with honey than with vinegar." Over the course of my life, those words have proven to me to be right.
Having read this a couple of times I must admit I'm not really sure what you're saying.

I will guess at your points...

Pharmaceutical research is largely funded by pharmaceuticals? Of course, who else would fund it? That's why we have checks and balances. There's more money to be made by pandemics than vaccinations. I want drug companies to invest in drug research.

The strongest advocates against vaccinations are parents looking for something other than genetics or plain bad luck to blame for kids that are sick, "alternative medicine" nut jobs who believe in some vast medical conspiracy, or people writing books on why not to vaccinate (aka making money off the idea).

I don't know a SINGLE physician who hasn't had their OWN children vaccinated. They don't make money off that, they just want to keep their kids and others from getting life threatening illnesses.

Honey isn't working. Whether legislation is vinegar or not, if parents want their kids in school they will now vaccinate. I think that's a good thing and hope the idea gains traction.

To be clear, so anyone who reads this forum isn't dostracted or confused:

Science proves vaccines save lives and any notional risk (unproven) is very very small compared to the PROVEN life saving benefits.
 
Old 06-30-2015, 07:24 AM
 
Location: Subconscious Syncope, USA (Northeastern US)
2,367 posts, read 1,526,249 times
Reputation: 3814
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlvancouver View Post
Having read this a couple of times I must admit I'm not really sure what you're saying.

I will guess at your points...

Pharmaceutical research is largely funded by pharmaceuticals? Of course, who else would fund it? That's why we have checks and balances. There's more money to be made by pandemics than vaccinations. I want drug companies to invest in drug research.

The strongest advocates against vaccinations are parents looking for something other than genetics or plain bad luck to blame for kids that are sick, "alternative medicine" nut jobs who believe in some vast medical conspiracy, or people writing books on why not to vaccinate (aka making money off the idea).

I don't know a SINGLE physician who hasn't had their OWN children vaccinated. They don't make money off that, they just want to keep their kids and others from getting life threatening illnesses.

Honey isn't working. Whether legislation is vinegar or not, if parents want their kids in school they will now vaccinate. I think that's a good thing and hope the idea gains traction.

To be clear, so anyone who reads this forum isn't dostracted or confused:

Science proves vaccines save lives and any notional risk (unproven) is very very small compared to the PROVEN life saving benefits.
When was honey tried?

As I mentioned before, much eariler on this thread, when the flu vaccine first came out, images akin to scenes from "Gangs of New York" were used to sell it to the public. Bodies lining the street with candles so relatives could identify them because the streets had no lighting, and no one owned a flashlight apparently. Why? Wouldnt anyone concerned about the flu be getting vaccinated anyway? Did those antiquated imagines really send people rushing to get vaccinated for something like the flu - or did they do more to hurt that cause?

Could it not be foreseen that that would be viewed by anyone with two brain cells to rub together skeptically?

It seems odd that out of more than 48000 scientists in the country none can be found that arent working for manufacturers to study the effect of drugs and vaccines, or to sit on oversight panels.

But I guess someone could logically counter that with a statement like all scientists are heavily invested in Big Pharma, so it would be impossible. In fact, I seem to be somewhat invested in Big Pharma myself viewing the funds holdings in my retirement annuity. Why would I be against Big Pharma succeeding? I wouldnt be.

Doctors do make money off everything they do in this country. We are not very communist or socialist, and doctors do not become doctors without the money to do so here. I can be the most brilliant human God ever created,, but without the funds to back that brilliance, I will never be anything of note. Money controls every aspect of life in the US - how could doctors be exempt? Its not logical, unless they are imported from countries with a different system their own. Even someone seeking a PhD will be told someone other than yourself needs to support you while you pursue your Doctorate.

Im sure someone could counter that with scholarships, and blah blah blah, but life has a way throwing everyone curveballs too. There are not enough scholarships out there that would educate and support everyone with the potential.

Its interesting you point to genetics, or plain bad luck. Its that easy to brush off the effect on someones child? Would that be acceptable to Doctors when that 'plain bad luck' effected their own children? "Meh, sorry Doc - just plain bad luck that killed your child. You must come from a tired gene pool." Sounds rather callous to me.

Does being a scientist necessitate killing off compassion and the ability to reason in regard to human emmotion? Maybe it does. I dont know.

My point is Im looking at it from both sides of the coin - not just the side I would particularly prefer. In all honesty I dont actually have a preference.

We are also told that the world is overpopulated, and we need reduce our carbon footprint. How do we do that if we are not allowed to get sick or even at some point die?

You could counter with that not being the point for many reasons, but cant any parent also use the 'plain bad luck' and 'genetics' theory, the same way you do to support risking vaccination, to support their desire to have their child risk the infection?

I dont have any answers one way or the other, but I also dont look at healthcare at all-good, nor all-bad. Maybe its as you say, a matter of luck.

If science cant guarantee the vaccine will definately prevent the disease in question, or that no one will have a bad reaction to the vaccine itself - how can it be so matter-of-fact about vaccines must be used, and for every even mundane thing we can create one for? You can point to the theory of herd immunity, but you cant honestly say that theory has been undoubtably proven as fact either.

Vaccines are good. Im sure people with HepC, HIV/AIDS, Ebola, and a whole host of dieases that would or have had a serious life-threatening impact on society would gratefully welcome the development of vaccines for those dreadful conditions. The seriousness of the condition would definately out-weigh the risk of complication, their poor gene pool, or plain bad luck in regard to the vaccine.

Please learn from the marketing of the flu vaccine. Whether it was meant to be a scare tactic or not, that is definately the effect it produced - whether anyone wants accept that fact or not.

Whether we risk infection or not, we are all meant to eventually die one day. Its called the natural cycle of life. It appears to me, parents that do vaccinate dont even have any confidence in the power the vaccine to protect. If they did, they wouldnt display an irrational fear of children who have not been vaccinated. I was vaccinated, and my parents didnt grill any perspective class or play mates about whether or not they had been vaccinated. We simply ran off and studied or played. There was no irrational fear.

Science can voice its perspective all it wants, but that doesnt mean that perspective will always be met with unconditional acceptance.

In the end, its my body. I should have the right to put what I want in it - be it a good thing, or a bad thing. Its my life to either try to prolong, or simply throw away at will. To deny that to anyone does nothing to promote the cause of vaccination. In fact, denying that is probably what brings about conspiracy theories in the first place.

Last edited by ConeyGirl52; 06-30-2015 at 07:45 AM..
 
Old 06-30-2015, 07:31 AM
 
8,546 posts, read 5,275,208 times
Reputation: 9115
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
If this passes, how much of an impact will this really have on keeping things like measles, mumps, etc. or whatever they are vaccinating against from spreading/preventing outbreaks? Given the tourism industry in CA and kids in CA coming into contact at public places, theme parks, etc with other kids from other states and countries that don't have such a policy with vaccines, is really that much being accomplished if this goes through?
It passed. I don't think it will have that much of an impact in part due to the reasons you mention above.
 
Old 06-30-2015, 08:18 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,031 posts, read 98,908,697 times
Reputation: 31481
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
Right, makes sense. I guess what I'm leading up to is how many kids in CA are not vaccinated/attending schools currently? If it's only a small %, and most are vaccinated, it seems at present without any law being passed, epidemics would remain small anyways and affect mostly those kids who's parents didn't vaccinate.
I have to run off to work this morning (to give some vaccines-gasp!) or I'd look it up for you, but you can find this information easily. While statewide CA has a decent immunization rate, there are pockets were more than half of all school children are unimmunized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
It passed. I don't think it will have that much of an impact in part due to the reasons you mention above.
Actually, it has been determined that low vaccine rates contributed.
Disneyland Measles Outbreak Linked to Sites With Low Vaccination Rates
Here's a more "in your face" article: No ****: Disneyland Measles Outbreak Linked to Anti-Vaxxers

You do know that one of the original Disney cases lives here in CO? S/he (I think a he) was exposed at Disney, came back home to COS and got sick. S/he went to some sort of clinic/ER/urgent care plus to a lab, exposing a lot of people. Non-immune people have a 90% chance of getting sick if exposed. Number of additional cases here? Zero. That's how "herd immunity" is supposed to work. In CA, there were plenty of non-immune people to spread it to.
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