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Old 07-09-2015, 08:27 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,651,013 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms.Mathlete View Post
They are more than just different strains: they are part of the same family of viruses, but are different species altogether. They're also spread differently, too: polioviruses are primarily spread through fecal-oral route, while EV68 is primarily spread through respiratory secretions (actually, EV68 used to be classified as rhinovirus because it is genetically similar).
No the family is Picornavirus. Enterovirus is the species. I listed the human sub-types. The way they are spread has nothing to do with it. They all can be spread by fecal or oral routes and each is associated with certain symptoms. It is just like strains of the flu. Polio is a strain of enterovirus.

Also, it has been noted that immunity is strain-dependent. Immunity to EV68 doesn't mean you are immune to EV71.

Just like with the flu there are types, sub-types, and strains but they are all enterovirus.

 
Old 07-09-2015, 08:31 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,904 posts, read 102,364,631 times
Reputation: 32967
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
However, it's not a different virus. Polio is an enterovirus. Same virus different strain. In fact, strains that cause paralysis are: CV-A1, CV-A2, CV-A5, CV-A8, CV-A20a, CV-A21, CV-B5, PV1, PV2, PV3 (polio) as far as we know. The classification of enterovirus' came on and after 1962. Polio was discovered first and later classified under enterovirus in the family of Picornavirus. It's semantics.

Added: You know like different strains of the flu... still the flu.
No, despite your protestations to the contrary, these are NOT different strains of the same virus. They are different viruses.
http://www.cdc.gov/non-polio-enterov...ut/ev-d68.html
Note: NON-polio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
ok, you talked about the point in bold.

Now back to the question I asked several people who didn't care to answer my direct question and here it is again to you, using your specific example:

Let's say you have a child who was one of the 2-4 out of 100k doses who got thrombocytopenic purpura, or in my earlier example using the CDC data, your child was one of the 1 out of 30k who now has a temporary low platelet count/a bleeding disorder, was hospitalized for it, etc. as a result of the MMR vaccine. This can be a serious condition.

Vaccines: Vac-Gen/Side Effects

Question: Would you be willing to give your child, without question, another required vaccine, with the same risk profile with no questions/concerns? Or would you think seriously about perhaps not giving the next vaccine, with a similiar risk profile, to your child given the previous experience your child had with a vaccine? And if you decide not to give the next vaccine based on the bad experience of the previous, you feel CA has every right to ban your child from public school as a result because of your choice in this specific circumstance?
There is no other vaccine with this risk profile, as you put it. I read an article about a child who contracted ITP after the MMR vaccine. The mom was very conflicted about what to do about a second dose during the CA outbreak. She had titers drawn on the child and s/he was immune, problem solved. There's also the option of a medical exemption, which would be appropriate in this case.

Last edited by Katarina Witt; 07-09-2015 at 09:14 PM.. Reason: danged autocorrect!
 
Old 07-09-2015, 08:42 PM
 
Location: Where rhotic consonants are either absent or intrusive
8,890 posts, read 5,205,125 times
Reputation: 14579
You are mistaken. Poliovirus is subtype of the species Enterovirus C, while EV68 is a subtype of the species Enterovirus D. Same family, same genus, different species. Rhinoviruses (the common cold) are also different species of the same family and genus, btw. Recapping: poliovirus is a subtype of one species, while EV68 is a subtype of another species. An electron microscope can clear up any further doubts you have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
No the family is Picornavirus. Enterovirus is the species. I listed the human sub-types. The way they are spread has nothing to do with it. They all can be spread by fecal or oral routes and each is associated with certain symptoms. It is just like strains of the flu. Polio is a strain of enterovirus.

Also, it has been noted that immunity is strain-dependent. Immunity to EV68 doesn't mean you are immune to EV71.

Just like with the flu there are types, sub-types, and strains but they are all enterovirus.
 
Old 07-09-2015, 08:45 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,651,013 times
Reputation: 1694
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
There is no other vaccine with this risk profile, as you put it. I read an article about a child who contracted TOP after the MMR vaccine. The mom was very conflicted about what to do about a second dose during the CA outbreak. She had titers drawn on the child and s/he was immune, problem solved. There's also the option of a medical exemption, which would be appropriate in this case.
When I was in the medical field, I was required to get certain vaccines. I knew that I had Chicken pox but I couldn't prove it (had no idea what clinic the records were are) so I had to get titers. The problem with that is that I did not get titers on other things which I might have had but were asymptomatic, like measles, mumps, rubella, etc. Do we have to run titers on our kids for the state to believe us that they had the disease? And what about those who unknowingly had the disease (asymptomatic)?

Also, studies have shown that people who cannot develop antibodies were still resistant to the disease. So is titer testing really a proof of immunity?

In fact, the level of antibodies correlates more to active disease. If your body is fighting a disease then the antibodies would be higher. For example, if I came into contact with a person with chicken pox, unknowingly, then went to get my titer tested, the level would be higher because my body is busy fighting off the exposure.
 
Old 07-09-2015, 09:12 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,904 posts, read 102,364,631 times
Reputation: 32967
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
When I was in the medical field, I was required to get certain vaccines. I knew that I had Chicken pox but I couldn't prove it (had no idea what clinic the records were are) so I had to get titers. The problem with that is that I did not get titers on other things which I might have had but were asymptomatic, like measles, mumps, rubella, etc. Do we have to run titers on our kids for the state to believe us that they had the disease? And what about those who unknowingly had the disease (asymptomatic)?

Also, studies have shown that people who cannot develop antibodies were still resistant to the disease. So is titer testing really a proof of immunity?

In fact, the level of antibodies correlates more to active disease. If your body is fighting a disease then the antibodies would be higher. For example, if I came into contact with a person with chicken pox, unknowingly, then went to get my titer tested, the level would be higher because my body is busy fighting off the exposure.
For some diseases, written documentation by a physician is sufficient to exempt the vaccine, though probably not for health care workers. Titers are not perfect, but they're the best we have right now.
 
Old 07-09-2015, 09:33 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,651,013 times
Reputation: 1694
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
For some diseases, written documentation by a physician is sufficient to exempt the vaccine, though probably not for health care workers. Titers are not perfect, but they're the best we have right now.
"The best we have right now" is not good enough to deny children an education. IMHO.
 
Old 07-09-2015, 09:35 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,651,013 times
Reputation: 1694
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms.Mathlete View Post
You are mistaken. Poliovirus is subtype of the species Enterovirus C, while EV68 is a subtype of the species Enterovirus D. Same family, same genus, different species. Rhinoviruses (the common cold) are also different species of the same family and genus, btw. Recapping: poliovirus is a subtype of one species, while EV68 is a subtype of another species. An electron microscope can clear up any further doubts you have.
Again... if I contract polio, I contract enterovirus. If I contract Rhinovirus, I contract enterovirus. It is the same.
 
Old 07-09-2015, 09:44 PM
 
12,566 posts, read 10,437,998 times
Reputation: 17357
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
"Most people who get infected with poliovirus (about 72 out of 100) will not have any visible symptoms."
Paralysis from polio would be in a minority accounting for 1 out of that same 100.

CDC Global Health - Polio - What Is Polio?

What was your reason behind posting about your great-uncle if not to relate your experience with this "bad illness?"
Let's follow your logic for a sec, relating to vaccines. So if polio is so rarely serious, and so are side effects or any adverse effects of vaccines, why do you not see the two as equal? The odds of suffering severe polio are worse than suffering severe effects from vaccines, yet polio is no big deal, not serious, and vaccines are?
 
Old 07-09-2015, 10:04 PM
 
12,566 posts, read 10,437,998 times
Reputation: 17357
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
You might have been responding to my post and the CDC data I brought to the attention on this thread.

My intent wasn't to say getting measles was better/worse than a reaction to a vaccine. My simple point was that if one has a child who was one of the unlucky one's to get a moderate or severe reaction to a vaccine(blood disorders can be serious and may not be as black and white as your posts states), wouldn't it be prudent to at least question the idea of giving another vaccine if it has the same profile risk as stated on the CDC website as the previous vaccine? Let's make it more personal.....let's say we are talking about your hypothetical kid in this circumstance. Would you want the choice to make the decision to give or not give another vaccine to your kid without the gov saying "your kid needs it or won't be able to get into public school, regardless of the previous experience with the other vaccine"?
I don't think blood disorders are black and white... but did you read the wording? "Temporary" low platelet count "can" lead to a blood disorder. So, not only is your risk of getting a temporary low platelet count from the vaccine low (1 in 30,000) but so is the risk of developing a blood disorder from that low count (don't have the numbers on that but the language says it all - "can" rather than "will"). The CDC is being cautious, covering all their bases. It's not like 1 of 30,000 people develops a blood disorder from MMR. That's not what it's saying.

I don't know what I would do if it was my child. I know someone whose child had a severe allergic reaction to a vaccine (don't know which one) and is now paralyzed and brain damaged from it. It hasn't changed my views. I'm sure it changed hers, but I don't know whether or not her kids have been vaccinated further. It's possible he was still given the others.

If my kid was one of the one in at least 30,000 to get a blood disorder and I was afraid to vaccinate him/her again... then herd immunity would protect him or her. That's the idea behind vaccinating everyone who can be vaccinated. Enough others would be vaccinated to protect my kid in most situations, so I, the one out of at least 30,000 parent, wouldn't have to worry about it. That's IF I made the decision to not further vaccinate. I think I would ask for statistics on the other kids who happened to suffer that rare side effect, and see what choices their parents made, and how it turned out for them. I would definitely take the informed route and not just say "OK DONE WITH VACCINES NOW" and turn into a crazy anti-vaxxer because my kid was the one in at least 30,000.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
By the way, why hasn't anyone answered me asking whether or not you would vaccinate your child in the case that smallpox became a threat again?
I would love to hear the answer to this question, too. Doubt we'll get one, though. It's hard to imagine life with a deadly illness like smallpox when vaccines have blessed us enough to not have to live with them, so who knows what their opinion would be. It's not like they could base it on personal firsthand experience with just how awful smallpox is.

Don't bite the hand that feeds you, people. AKA - don't take vaccines for granted and write them off as dangerous or unnecessary or controversial when the fact is they have saved humankind from many terrible illnesses that used to kill a lot of children, and adults. There was a time when it was normal to lose a kid or two to childhood diseases. Imagine now, if almost everyone you know lost at least one child because of measles or smallpox or whatever else? Try to imagine how that would be? We don't live that life anymore because of vaccines.
 
Old 07-09-2015, 10:07 PM
 
Location: Where rhotic consonants are either absent or intrusive
8,890 posts, read 5,205,125 times
Reputation: 14579
Wow, I guess it's just a big ol' waste if time to bother classifying viruses, since they're pretty much the same anyway. Like there's no difference between homo sapien and homo erectus, or an apple and a kumquot, since they're all just different species of the same genus. Seriously, you learn this in 10th grade biology.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Again... if I contract polio, I contract enterovirus. If I contract Rhinovirus, I contract enterovirus. It is the same.
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