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Old 07-10-2015, 11:39 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,041 posts, read 98,964,874 times
Reputation: 31517

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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
Threats and coercion is your idea of choice? That sheds some light and is telling of the pro vax crowd. Resorting to threats won't aid in promoting vaccines, won't help stop disease, it will only create more problems. There are better ways of promoting childhood vaccines. This fight is just the latest fad. I would hope this country could do better. As long as we have a for profit healthcare system this type of coercion and false promotion will occur. There is no epidemic, promoting vaccines in a diplomatic way would be a far better avenue in my opinion.
Vaccine safety is questionable for certain people, and should not be advised as a whole but on an individual basis. We aren't cattle, we are human beings. We are more than just a herd. Every year children and adults are severely injured and killed by vaccine injuries. It needs to be a choice made by the parent, not the governments idea of what's good for a herd of humans.
Those people are few and far between. Please provide a cite to ONE vaccine death, that can be documented.

I see nothing threatening or coercive about this law. If vaccines weren't so safe, it wouldn't be law.

 
Old 07-11-2015, 12:42 AM
 
Location: BC, Arizona
1,170 posts, read 749,604 times
Reputation: 2377
I will tell you what, I would NOT support mandates if all the anti vax crowd:

- stop spreading information they know to be inaccurate, that misrepresents the risks of vaccines (see the lies and hyperbole about the extent of injury and the "deaths").
- stop minimizing the documented risks of the illnesses vaccines prevent (and the hundreds of thousands of deaths those diseases have caused),
- stop defending studies they know have been unequivocally dismissed as fraudulent,
- stop ignoring unequivocal studies (thousands of them that prove vaccines are safe and strongly recommended)
- stop implying celebrities or "mommy sense" is equal to thousands of studies on safety and efficacy of vaccines

Then parental choice would be REAL not bullied by anti-Vaxers or based on lies and misrepresentations the parents received, and I believe no rational parent of a child healthy enough to be vaccinated would ever deny their child the safety vaccines provide.
 
Old 07-11-2015, 01:27 AM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,401 posts, read 9,562,505 times
Reputation: 7421
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlvancouver View Post
I will tell you what, I would NOT support mandates if all the anti vax crowd:

- stop spreading information they know to be inaccurate, that misrepresents the risks of vaccines (see the lies and hyperbole about the extent of injury and the "deaths").
- stop minimizing the documented risks of the illnesses vaccines prevent (and the hundreds of thousands of deaths those diseases have caused),
- stop defending studies they know have been unequivocally dismissed as fraudulent,
- stop ignoring unequivocal studies (thousands of them that prove vaccines are safe and strongly recommended)
- stop implying celebrities or "mommy sense" is equal to thousands of studies on safety and efficacy of vaccines

Then parental choice would be REAL not bullied by anti-Vaxers or based on lies and misrepresentations the parents received, and I believe no rational parent of a child healthy enough to be vaccinated would ever deny their child the safety vaccines provide.
So it's revenge on the anti vaxers? That's not a very sound reason to force mandates in my opinion. The general public is as smart as you are believe it or not. They can come to their own conclusions.

Medical advice is often wrong as well. Should everyone forgo all medical advice about drugs because the once thought super drug for pain Ibuprofen, which doctors use to advise people take for all painful ills, has been found to be dangerous? It's not like drug companies have an outstanding record for knowing the safety of their products. We make our own decisions and take our own chances, with everything recommended by our healthcare system.
It's for profit, anything can happen.

FDA Strengthens Heart Safety Warnings on Painkillers

Making money off healthy people does happen: How trustworthy are doctors now a days? That just depends.
Making big bucks off our health, Cancer Doc treats healthy patients

Last edited by PoppySead; 07-11-2015 at 01:44 AM..
 
Old 07-11-2015, 01:53 AM
 
Location: BC, Arizona
1,170 posts, read 749,604 times
Reputation: 2377
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
So it's revenge on the anti vaxers? That's not a very sound reason to force mandates in my opinion. The general public is as smart as you are believe it or not. They can come to their own conclusions.

Medical advice is often wrong as well. Should everyone forgo all medical advice about drugs because the once thought super drug for pain Ibuprofen, which doctors use to advise people take for all painful ills, has been found to be dangerous? It's not like drug companies have an outstanding record for knowing the safety of their products. We make our own decisions and take our own chances, with everything recommended by our healthcare system.
It's for profit, anything can happen.

FDA Strengthens Heart Safety Warnings on Painkillers

Making money off healthy people does happen: How trustworthy are doctors now a days? That just depends.
Making big bucks off our health, Cancer Doc treats healthy patients
This couldn't have proved my point more effectively.

It's not revenge. It's the fact that true choice requires accurate facts and data not lies and distractions.

Vaccines are safe, pointing out a couple of bad doctors (the anti vax guru Wakefield being one of them) doesn't dismiss thousands of peer review studies showing vaccines are safe.

I'm not going to have a "battle of wits" with an unarmed person. If the anti-vax vitamin selling fear mongering posse wants to obfuscate and lie, prepare for more mandates to ensure public health and innocent people are protected from the profound risk the anti-vax movement seeks to create.

Thanks to this thread I was able to advocate successfully that our local recreation fall programming not accept unvaccinated kids without medical exemptions. Thanks anti-vaxxers for reminding many people of the hidden risk you're creating by undermining public health. It's not as effective as the California law, but it's a step.
 
Old 07-11-2015, 02:27 AM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,401 posts, read 9,562,505 times
Reputation: 7421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
Those people are few and far between. Please provide a cite to ONE vaccine death, that can be documented.

I see nothing threatening or coercive about this law. If vaccines weren't so safe, it wouldn't be law.
You know as well as I that it can only be reported. They can't be sued in a court of law and proven to be at fault and they've set up a committee to pay people off after they sign an agreement not to blame them. What's not to trust?

I can tell you that their are an average of 30,000 reports a year by consumers and healthcare personnel who report to VAERS about injury and death they believe were caused by vaccines. You of course already know this. There are doctors that recommend certain kids shouldn't get them, those doctors don't get considered by the CDC as legitimate because they go against the CDC's advice.

Who would take what you say and actually think you had their best interest at heart? You could just as well be that nurse who made fun of that poor guy during his colonoscopy. It's anyone's guess who's who out there. We just do our best and try to figure it out. We rely on our own research when things look off. Some people might not agree with you or the CDC. They have their reasons.

But, for the most part people vaccinate. There are other ways, such as transparency, and taking peoples complaints seriously that would help encourage them to vaccinate more. Brushing aside injury and death healthcare workers and the public report isn't going to cut it. Some aren't going to understand that. There might be a few coincidences but I doubt there is 30,000 of them a year. That's fishy.

Last week you would have given a patient with high blood pressure an Advil every 6 hours for a hurt leg until their pain was gone. This week that would be bad advice wouldn't it. Healthcare fails. Healthcare kills. Science is not a religion. It can and has been wrong for a multitude of reasons. Therefore, people need to make their own choices.

I don't know how a drug company can improve on vaccines if they are infallible.
Yes to vaccines, no to mandating them.
 
Old 07-11-2015, 02:34 AM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,401 posts, read 9,562,505 times
Reputation: 7421
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlvancouver View Post
This couldn't have proved my point more effectively.

It's not revenge. It's the fact that true choice requires accurate facts and data not lies and distractions.

Vaccines are safe, pointing out a couple of bad doctors (the anti vax guru Wakefield being one of them) doesn't dismiss thousands of peer review studies showing vaccines are safe.

I'm not going to have a "battle of wits" with an unarmed person. If the anti-vax vitamin selling fear mongering posse wants to obfuscate and lie, prepare for more mandates to ensure public health and innocent people are protected from the profound risk the anti-vax movement seeks to create.

Thanks to this thread I was able to advocate successfully that our local recreation fall programming not accept unvaccinated kids without medical exemptions. Thanks anti-vaxxers for reminding many people of the hidden risk you're creating by undermining public health. It's not as effective as the California law, but it's a step.
What are the true facts about vaccine injuries? You don't know. Stop acting like you do.

I vaccinated my kids, you can't use your anti vax rhetoric on me. What do you say to the average vaccinated citizen who oppose mandates? There are in retrospect very few anti vaxers. Most of us disagree with mandates and are confident about our choices. We may not want one or two of those vaccines, but we certainly aren't anti vax. Your ridiculous.

What IS your point?

Moderator cut: personal remarks

Last edited by Marka; 07-13-2015 at 02:56 AM..
 
Old 07-11-2015, 08:05 AM
 
5,669 posts, read 3,210,029 times
Reputation: 6655
What I cannot understand is how people get so furious about refusing a vaccination for a disease that is not even contagious, and will only affect the individual person. Tetanus? HPV? Shingles? Come on. Your concept of Herd Immunity won't work with those. So why do you even CARE? MUST do whatever doctors say to do? As Poppysead said, there are people on here who DID vaccinate our own kids. So we are anti-vaxxers too? I suppose they cannot understand this. We are coming at this from choice, not coercion and force.

How far do you want medicine to take this coercion? Vaccination now, but what in the future? A woman I know told me her doctor said that mammograms were REQUIRED under the law. What??????? Doctor said if she refused her mammogram he would drop her as a patient. How about a PATIENT dropping that Bully Doctor? First vaccinations. Now mammograms too?
 
Old 07-11-2015, 08:27 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,041 posts, read 98,964,874 times
Reputation: 31517
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlvancouver View Post
I will tell you what, I would NOT support mandates if all the anti vax crowd:

- stop spreading information they know to be inaccurate, that misrepresents the risks of vaccines (see the lies and hyperbole about the extent of injury and the "deaths").
- stop minimizing the documented risks of the illnesses vaccines prevent (and the hundreds of thousands of deaths those diseases have caused),
- stop defending studies they know have been unequivocally dismissed as fraudulent,
- stop ignoring unequivocal studies (thousands of them that prove vaccines are safe and strongly recommended)
- stop implying celebrities or "mommy sense" is equal to thousands of studies on safety and efficacy of vaccines

Then parental choice would be REAL not bullied by anti-Vaxers or based on lies and misrepresentations the parents received, and I believe no rational parent of a child healthy enough to be vaccinated would ever deny their child the safety vaccines provide.
Excellent post! And no, PoppySead, this isn't "revenge on the anti-vaxers". This is a call for honesty from them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
You know as well as I that it can only be reported. They can't be sued in a court of law and proven to be at fault and they've set up a committee to pay people off after they sign an agreement not to blame them. What's not to trust?

I can tell you that their are an average of 30,000 reports a year by consumers and healthcare personnel who report to VAERS about injury and death they believe were caused by vaccines. You of course already know this. There are doctors that recommend certain kids shouldn't get them, those doctors don't get considered by the CDC as legitimate because they go against the CDC's advice.

Who would take what you say and actually think you had their best interest at heart? You could just as well be that nurse who made fun of that poor guy during his colonoscopy. It's anyone's guess who's who out there. We just do our best and try to figure it out. We rely on our own research when things look off. Some people might not agree with you or the CDC. They have their reasons.

But, for the most part people vaccinate. There are other ways, such as transparency, and taking peoples complaints seriously that would help encourage them to vaccinate more. Brushing aside injury and death healthcare workers and the public report isn't going to cut it. Some aren't going to understand that. There might be a few coincidences but I doubt there is 30,000 of them a year. That's fishy.

Last week you would have given a patient with high blood pressure an Advil every 6 hours for a hurt leg until their pain was gone. This week that would be bad advice wouldn't it. Healthcare fails. Healthcare kills. Science is not a religion. It can and has been wrong for a multitude of reasons. Therefore, people need to make their own choices.

I don't know how a drug company can improve on vaccines if they are infallible.
Yes to vaccines, no to mandating them.
"Who's this "they"?

You know good and well, because VAERS says it on their site (VAERS being otherwise known as the big, bad, evil US government):
"Guide to Interpreting VAERS Case Report Information

When evaluating data from VAERS, it is important to note that for any reported event, no cause-and-effect relationship has been established. Reports of all possible associations between vaccines and adverse events (possible side effects) are filed in VAERS. Therefore, VAERS collects data on any adverse event following vaccination, be it coincidental or truly caused by a vaccine. The report of an adverse event to VAERS is not documentation that a vaccine caused the event.
VAERS data contains coincidental events and those truly caused by vaccines."


I'm sure you've heard by now of the flu researcher who reported to VAERS that the flu vaccine turned him into the Incredible Hulk. Had he not asked VAERS, when they contacted him, to remove that report, it would still be in there for all to see, e.g. "X people had a fever; Y had sore arms; one turned into the Hulk". People would believe it, and these charlatans the anti-vaxers support philosophically and with money, e.g. Wakefield, Mercola, Mike Adams, etc, would be making videos of people transforming into the Hulk right before your eyes. CD posters would be posting them as "evidence" for all the rest of us to see.

Interestingly, in most matters of immunization, the government, e.g. the CDC is considered by the anit-vaxers corrupt and untrustworthy, but when it comes to this raw VAERS data, that's the inerrant word of God! Anti-vaxers who tell us in one breath that parents are irresponsible, etc tell us in the next that no parent would falsely report anything to VAERS in the hopes of getting money.

Your "30,000 a year" refers to reports, as you well know. This includes reports of deaths from auto accidents, homicides, suicides, and other accidents (I know of one regarding a child falling into a well, choking on a bean), cancer, heart disease and other medical causes in the time frame allowed by VAERS for a vaccine injury.

Now lets talk about suing. Yes, drug companies can be sued. They just can't sued for what you might call "design defects" in vaccines without first going through the NVICP. If unsatisfied with the VAERS award, people can sue, and a VAERS award can also be appealed all the way to the Supreme Court. You might take a look at this article: Why anti-vaxers hate the NVICP (and just what is it, anyway?). –by Colin McRoberts – Violent metaphors
"Instead of having to sue the vaccine makers, which is an incredibly expensive, difficult, and time-consuming process, those plaintiffs get fast-tracked through a non-adversarial system. That means that instead of making them fight with the vaccine makers’ lawyers, the government pays for the plaintiffs’ counsel and works with them to determine whether compensation is appropriate. Plaintiffs in the NVICP win their cases much more often than plaintiffs in the normal product-liability courts, and even if they lose they don’t have to pay for their own lawyers." That's my allowable three sentences. You'll have to read the rest yourself.

Drug companies can certainly be sued for manufacturing errors and the like.

You might be interested to know that most first-world companies have such programs. They work a little differently in each, but in all, the evidence needed is far less than what is needed in a court of law.

Here is an article about the US program. Vaccine Injury Compensation Programs — History of Vaccines
" In some cases (Germany and Switzerland) the state, rather than the national government, administers the program. And in countries with national health plans, vaccine injury compensation is a secondary source of support, as basic health care is provided at no or very little cost. In general, developing nations have not established compensation systems for vaccine injuries"

Here is an article about other countries' programs:
WHO | No-fault compensation following adverse events attributed to vaccination: a review of international programmes

First sentence: "The public health benefits of vaccination are clear."

That is the issue the anti-vaxers disagree with.

Here's more: "Without evidence of clear negligence, it is difficult to obtain compensation through traditional legal mechanisms. Recognizing this, several countries have implemented vaccine-injury compensation programmes.3"

It's true these injuries are hard to prove. That's why there is a table of presumed injuries to various vaccines and a time-table for each. The awards are decided on a no-fault basis.

Keep telling us we're all a bunch of killers. That's a way to develop trust. Not accessing health care kills too, in far greater numbers.
 
Old 07-11-2015, 08:33 AM
 
26,163 posts, read 14,496,221 times
Reputation: 17235
Thumbs down  

Quote:
Vaccines are safe
This thread is hopeless..... You have those who are asleep and IN CONTROL and those who ARE AWAKE AND AWARE and know the truth......

There is NO POINT to keep arguing back and fourth!!
 
Old 07-11-2015, 08:35 AM
 
8,546 posts, read 5,279,681 times
Reputation: 9115
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
Threats and coercion is your idea of choice? That sheds some light and is telling of the pro vax crowd. Resorting to threats won't aid in promoting vaccines, won't help stop disease, it will only create more problems. There are better ways of promoting childhood vaccines. This fight is just the latest fad. I would hope this country could do better. As long as we have a for profit healthcare system this type of coercion and false promotion will occur. There is no epidemic, promoting vaccines in a diplomatic way would be a far better avenue in my opinion.
Vaccine safety is questionable for certain people, and should not be advised as a whole but on an individual basis. We aren't cattle, we are human beings. We are more than just a herd. Every year children and adults are severely injured and killed by vaccine injuries. It needs to be a choice made by the parent, not the governments idea of what's good for a herd of humans.
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