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Old 07-14-2015, 03:45 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,566 posts, read 26,190,928 times
Reputation: 26618

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Quote:
Originally Posted by KaraG View Post
Honest question, is there a current and effective protocol to treat these diseases and minimize complications if someone does get measles, chickenpox, mumps, whooping cough?? Because I don't understand all the comments that use the word "terrified."

Certainly I would have to believe that medical care would have advanced since we had these childhood diseases so that they wouldn't be seen as scarier to deal with than decades ago.

Not talking about polio or smallpox.
More people survive these diseases because we can support them better. Consider Ebola (for which there is not yet a vaccine). People who survive do so because of extraordinary measures, including massive replacement of lost fluids and treatment with antibiotics for superimposed bacterial infections.

However, supportive treatment will not prevent things like encephalitis, including the delayed, fatal form that sometimes happens after measles. There is an earlier post here about author Roald Dahl's daughter Olivia's death from measles encephalitis. Olivia seemed to be getting well, then she collapsed.

November 1962 - death of Roald Dahl's daughter Olivia

Vitamin A supplementation helps prevent blindness and reduce mortality from measles in those who are deficient in Vitamin A, but does not prevent encephalitis.

Supportive treatment will not change the risk of shingles following chicken pox infection.

Supportive treatment will not prevent infertilty due to mumps infection of the testes.

Supportive treatment will not prevent congenital rubella syndrome.

The only way to reduce the risk of those complications is to not get the disease at all. That's what the vaccines do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
I'm not going to waste too much time here sharing info on ways to deal with chicken pox, shingles, measles or pertussis just to get attacked. Was it you or someone else who admitted that they asked questions to "trap" people? Was it me who got harassed for simply saying, "I don't know". You might understand why I'm reluctant to answer questions here that aren't genuine. If people are truly interested the info is not difficult to find. Vitamin A and measles is well studied, Vitamin C and pertussis. L-Lysine and chicken pox and shingles. Antivirals herbs, etc. Do your research tlvancouver.
Strangely, I cannot find any studies confirming the effectiveness of lysine in chicken pox or shingles. Lysine might be of some helpl in reducing the number of recurrences of herpes simplex, but most studies do not show much effect after a recurrence has already started. I can find nothing that states that varicella virus metabolizes arginine the same way that herpes simplex does.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/406943

"Lysine's efficacy for herpes labialis may lie more in prevention than treatment. Studies do not support the use of lysine for decreasing the severity or duration of outbreaks."

Lysine for Cold Sores? | Berkeley Wellness

"The idea that lysine might work against herpes has some plausibility. In order to replicate, the herpes virus requires arginine, another amino acid that's common in foods and necessary to human life; lysine is thought to interfere with the absorption of arginine in the intestine.
However, it's a long way from this observation to a herpes treatment, and most studies on high doses of lysine as a preventive or treatment have been inconclusive. While a few studies have found that lysine decreases the severity or duration of an outbreak, others have not. In any case, most of the studies have been small and poorly designed. What's more, serious side effects (notably kidney problems) from long-term use have been reported; high doses can cause abdominal pain and diarrhea.
We do not recommend lysine. Its effect is unproven, at best, and there are medications that work. A caution: If you do take lysine supplements, don't take them continually, but only when you feel cold sores coming on."

There are antiviral drugs that can help speed the resolution of chicken pox. Also, it is possible to reduce the risk of developing chicken pox after exposure. An immune globulin containing high doses of antibodies to the varicella virus is available. however, it is hideously expensive, so it is used only in situations where the risk of severe disease is high, such as an exposed immunosuppressed person. The antibodies remove the virus and lessen the risk of disease. Given within 96 hours of exposure, it is highly effective.

http://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/809244

Administering the chickenpox vaccine within 72 hours of exposure can also lessen the risk of clinical disease or reduce its severity.

Post exposure prophylaxis can also be provided for measles (MMR vaccine or immunoglobulins). It is not very helpful for rubella, though it might be for mumps, for either of which a dose of MMR might be considered.

Measles | For Healthcare Professionals | CDC

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...oads/mumps.pdf

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...ds/rubella.pdf

All I can find on vitamin C and pertussis is from the 1930s and 1940s. Said it did not work.


Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
It's also true that by not allowing under/un vaccinated children in school they will be out in public more often. If the logic is that keeping them out of school will protect those unable to be vaccinated then pushing them out of school will be exposing more of the public all year round.

I chose to modify the schedule for my kids. I wanted to wait until they were ready for school. Then over the years adding to it. If my kids were still young and we lived in Cali, they would be unable to attend school due to under vaccination until they were fully caught up.

As I said in a previous post, vaccination as adults seems (to me) to be a better solution.

I don't understand why a newborn gets a Hep B shot but the CDC recommends an adult get the shot IF they are at risk by job or lifestyle.
All you did by delaying vaccination is leave your children vulnerable to these infections for a longer time. Even "Dr. Bob" Sears admits that it is no safer. Of course, your children were protected by herd immunity while you were waiting to get them vaccinated. The more parents who do what you did, the more vulnerable children there are, and eventually there is not a sufficient number of vaccinated people to sustain herd immunity any longer.

Since there is no reason to delay vaccinating, there is no reason to have to "catch up" to go to school. If you follow the recommended schedule, the kids are covered.

Vaccinating adults wil not prevent children from catching these diseases. You seem to think for some reason that vaccine preventable illnesses cannot hurt kids. You're wrong.

Vaccinating infants against hepatitis B has them protected during a time when infection with the virus increase the risk of persistent carriage of the virus and a high risk of complications, including liver cancer. Half of the children infected with hepatitis B do not have an identifiable source. The vaccine is safe and effective for babies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
Now, just as speculated, Pandora's box has been opened. The new bill SB792, ADULT MANDATES VACCINATE OR CRIMINAL ACTION CAN BE USED. The Government can now rule my healthcare choices, not mine, no way. I don't need a mother.
I read the bill. Please show me where it provides for "criminal action". Anyone who does not want to follow the vaccination rules will not be able to get a license for a day care center. That is not "criminal action".

Quote:
I wonder what's next? Anyone who works with the public maybe? Work at Ralph's Market and you have to by law get yearly flu vax, Measles boosters, Tdap, and any one or all of the new vaccines in the pipe line, I hear there are around 300. Here we go.
I've decided to move out of California, even though my children are older and this doesn't effect them, it will effect their children if they chose to have any and it effects others. Yes, I made the chose to vaccinate my children, but, I can't ethically go along with what this state is proposing, and the limited number of medical exemptions the CDC has granted parents.
I suspect we will see other states follow California's lead eventually. It will probably take outbreaks and, unfortunately, some deaths before it happens, though.

Quote:
Even if one of your children die after a vaccine, and it's proven to be attributed to the vaccine, the remainder of your children will still be required to vaccinate regardless of the same genetic issues that might have predisposed your dead child when they were vaccinated. I can't imagine how they would feel, and I would gladly offer my herd immunity to them to spare them that agonizing decision.
Please provide a source supporting this statement.

Quote:
Doctors are afraid to go against the CDC, because they are worried about losing their licenses, even if they feel it could harm the child who is their patient, this goes against a doctors proposed ethics and is blackmail by the CDC.
Please provide a source for this statement. All I see is a requirement that the doctor feels the exemption is indicated.

Quote:
Under the laws, doctors and those who make the vaccines are exempt liability so they cannot be held liable if the child suffers an injury or dies. I think there will be legal issues and conflicts raised for the state, I think this is primarily a funded venture with proof of financial persuasion. As I mentioned before the drug companies paid those responsible for bill SB277, I have posted this previously. Conflicts are everywhere.
The likelihood that a child will suffer an injury or die from a vaccine preventable disease is much higher than the risk he will be injured or die from a vaccine. Who is held accountable if your unvaccinated child gives another child an infection that injures or kills him? the vaccinated child has recourse. The child injured by an unvaccinated child does not.

Quote:
And now they are moving on with adult mandates. Who wants to live in a police state? Not me. Thankfully I own a home in Arizona, which I am appreciating more and more. I was born in CA, and always appreciated the freedom to think outside the corporate box but that no longer holds true. I'm not alone, and those of us who are leaving will watch the freedoms being striped from another state while ours stay intact.
If you don't want to vaccinate, don't vaccinate.

 
Old 07-14-2015, 04:01 PM
 
Location: BC, Arizona
1,170 posts, read 749,604 times
Reputation: 2377
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
Whatever. We don't need to have a convo, it's pretty useless on both ends. We will just have to agree to disagree and ignore each other.
aka "I know you proved me wrong so I don't want to play anymore."

Actual nursing organizations support mandatory vaccination in California. There is nothing to agree or disagree with, Katrina posted the links.

You're already ignoring evidence.
 
Old 07-14-2015, 04:04 PM
 
11,910 posts, read 9,650,978 times
Reputation: 16300
You don't "agree to disagree" when there is evidence involved and one side refuses to acknowledge it. This stuff isn't opinion-based for the pro-side, it's evidence based. You can "disagree" with the evidence all you want but it makes you flat out wrong.

I refuse to say "let's agree to disagree" on anything relating to this topic.
 
Old 07-14-2015, 04:14 PM
 
Location: Marquette, Mich
1,024 posts, read 387,378 times
Reputation: 2333
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
I'm glad everything worked out ok with you. Febrile seizures generally do not cause brain damage unless they last for a prolonged period of time and the child is not getting enough oxygen, then they do.
It was nice you had the option to space out your vaccinations. Some people want that right as well, some want the right to eliminate one they think caused the problem. This is why a choice made with your doctor as you had, not a mandate is preferred. My son has Tourettes, for two years they thought he was having seizures so we opted to hold off vaccinations. When he was finally diagnosed with Tourettes we started his vaccinations again. He had many before, and now he has finished them for his grade level.

I think parents make the best choices for their kids, and I don't believe the government should be allowed to dictate our schedules, or reasons why we chose not to. I'm not anti vax, I'm anti mandates. Now that adults will also have their own mandates if the new sb law passes, we will see how it all unfolds. I know a lot of adults who don't get yearly flu vaccines, or childhood boosters. I'm pretty sure if the childhood one passed the adult one will pass or that would be strange. I'm going back to AZ where I have more choices and less government.
But, see, that would have qualified as a medical exemption. We can all have our opinions. When there are two sides, somebody loses, I guess. Hopefully, we err on the side of the greater good. In this case, the greater good is vaccinating, whether some like it or not. If there is reasonable evidence this is not in the best interest of the greater good, then I will be happy to lend my voice to the opposition. I don't think parents are making the best choices for their kids in this case. Vaccination rates continue to decline due to false fears and misinformation. This is an effort to counteract the massive movement that has spread outright nonsense.
 
Old 07-14-2015, 04:34 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,033 posts, read 98,948,726 times
Reputation: 31502
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlvancouver View Post
aka "I know you proved me wrong so I don't want to play anymore."

Actual nursing organizations support mandatory vaccination in California. There is nothing to agree or disagree with, Katrina posted the links.

You're already ignoring evidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
You don't "agree to disagree" when there is evidence involved and one side refuses to acknowledge it. This stuff isn't opinion-based for the pro-side, it's evidence based. You can "disagree" with the evidence all you want but it makes you flat out wrong.

I refuse to say "let's agree to disagree" on anything relating to this topic.
Seriously. The words are either in the law, or they're not. You don't "agree to disagree" on whether they exist. Interpretation, sure, that's a different thing. That's what we have the Supreme Courts for.

I've worked with the schools on immunizations. Their main concern is getting the records and entering the data. They're not going to go after a doctor for an exemption, and ask him/her to explain it; threaten his/her license. Not going to happen. They just put a mark in the "exemption" column and go on to the next kid. Talk about "fear-mongering"!

Last edited by Katarina Witt; 07-14-2015 at 06:00 PM..
 
Old 07-14-2015, 05:52 PM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,401 posts, read 9,562,505 times
Reputation: 7421
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlvancouver View Post
aka "I know you proved me wrong so I don't want to play anymore."

Actual nursing organizations support mandatory vaccination in California. There is nothing to agree or disagree with, Katrina posted the links.

You're already ignoring evidence.
I don't consider this a game, I take this conversation seriously I own a home in California.

I linked a video, if she doesn't want to watch it then she doesn't have to.

No gaining up on me is necessary, I'm not that big of a threat. I can't respond because I get infractions, so it's really not appropriate for you guys to do this. Why don't you have a pm about how stupid you find me and call it a day.
 
Old 07-14-2015, 06:03 PM
 
Location: BC, Arizona
1,170 posts, read 749,604 times
Reputation: 2377
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
I don't consider this a game, I take this conversation seriously I own a home in California.

I linked a video, if she doesn't want to watch it then she doesn't have to.

No gaining up on me is necessary, I'm not that big of a threat. I can't respond because I get infractions, so it's really not appropriate for you guys to do this. Why don't you have a pm about how stupid you find me and call it a day.
Playing the victim is not appropriate.

Katrina posed evidence that you were not being truthful or accurate in your attempts to persuade people not to vaccinate. That's not a game, I agree.

This is a life and death issue, which makes assertions that are simply not supported by the facts entirely unacceptable. I don't find you stupid, I believe you know exactly what you're doing, I DO however believe the unwillingness to consider evidence is a rigidity that makes you very difficult to deal with on a thread.

You've seen many many people in leadership positions change their views on vaccines as all of the trumped up danger studies were debunked, people from both sides of the US political spectrum support not only vaccination but mandatory vaccination.

The majority of the public also supports it. It's good public health policy. The evidence provided by Katrina proves the medical establishment supports it. The video does nothing to establish your view, it's another distraction from the key issue that every single reputable study supports childhood vaccination to prevent illness.
 
Old 07-14-2015, 06:26 PM
 
5,666 posts, read 3,210,029 times
Reputation: 6654
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
More people survive these diseases because we can support them better. Consider Ebola (for which there is not yet a vaccine). People who survive do so because of extraordinary measures, including massive replacement of lost fluids and treatment with antibiotics for superimposed bacterial infections.

However, supportive treatment will not prevent things like encephalitis, including the delayed, fatal form that sometimes happens after measles. There is an earlier post here about author Roald Dahl's daughter Olivia's death from measles encephalitis. Olivia seemed to be getting well, then she collapsed.

November 1962 - death of Roald Dahl's daughter Olivia

Vitamin A supplementation helps prevent blindness and reduce mortality from measles in those who are deficient in Vitamin A, but does not prevent encephalitis.

Supportive treatment will not change the risk of shingles following chicken pox infection.

Supportive treatment will not prevent infertilty due to mumps infection of the testes.

Supportive treatment will not prevent congenital rubella syndrome.

The only way to reduce the risk of those complications is to not get the disease at all. That's what the vaccines do.




Strangely, I cannot find any studies confirming the effectiveness of lysine in chicken pox or shingles. Lysine might be of some helpl in reducing the number of recurrences of herpes simplex, but most studies do not show much effect after a recurrence has already started. I can find nothing that states that varicella virus metabolizes arginine the same way that herpes simplex does.



http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/406943

"Lysine's efficacy for herpes labialis may lie more in prevention than treatment. Studies do not support the use of lysine for decreasing the severity or duration of outbreaks."

Lysine for Cold Sores? | Berkeley Wellness

"The idea that lysine might work against herpes has some plausibility. In order to replicate, the herpes virus requires arginine, another amino acid that's common in foods and necessary to human life; lysine is thought to interfere with the absorption of arginine in the intestine.
However, it's a long way from this observation to a herpes treatment, and most studies on high doses of lysine as a preventive or treatment have been inconclusive. While a few studies have found that lysine decreases the severity or duration of an outbreak, others have not. In any case, most of the studies have been small and poorly designed. What's more, serious side effects (notably kidney problems) from long-term use have been reported; high doses can cause abdominal pain and diarrhea.
We do not recommend lysine. Its effect is unproven, at best, and there are medications that work. A caution: If you do take lysine supplements, don't take them continually, but only when you feel cold sores coming on."

There are antiviral drugs that can help speed the resolution of chicken pox. Also, it is possible to reduce the risk of developing chicken pox after exposure. An immune globulin containing high doses of antibodies to the varicella virus is available. however, it is hideously expensive, so it is used only in situations where the risk of severe disease is high, such as an exposed immunosuppressed person. The antibodies remove the virus and lessen the risk of disease. Given within 96 hours of exposure, it is highly effective.

http://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/809244

Administering the chickenpox vaccine within 72 hours of exposure can also lessen the risk of clinical disease or reduce its severity.

Post exposure prophylaxis can also be provided for measles (MMR vaccine or immunoglobulins). It is not very helpful for rubella, though it might be for mumps, for either of which a dose of MMR might be considered.

Measles | For Healthcare Professionals | CDC

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...oads/mumps.pdf

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...ds/rubella.pdf

All I can find on vitamin C and pertussis is from the 1930s and 1940s. Said it did not work.




All you did by delaying vaccination is leave your children vulnerable to these infections for a longer time. Even "Dr. Bob" Sears admits that it is no safer. Of course, your children were protected by herd immunity while you were waiting to get them vaccinated. The more parents who do what you did, the more vulnerable children there are, and eventually there is not a sufficient number of vaccinated people to sustain herd immunity any longer.

Since there is no reason to delay vaccinating, there is no reason to have to "catch up" to go to school. If you follow the recommended schedule, the kids are covered.

Vaccinating adults wil not prevent children from catching these diseases. You seem to think for some reason that vaccine preventable illnesses cannot hurt kids. You're wrong.

Vaccinating infants against hepatitis B has them protected during a time when infection with the virus increase the risk of persistent carriage of the virus and a high risk of complications, including liver cancer. Half of the children infected with hepatitis B do not have an identifiable source. The vaccine is safe and effective for babies.



I read the bill. Please show me where it provides for "criminal action". Anyone who does not want to follow the vaccination rules will not be able to get a license for a day care center. That is not "criminal action".



I suspect we will see other states follow California's lead eventually. It will probably take outbreaks and, unfortunately, some deaths before it happens, though.



Please provide a source supporting this statement.



Please provide a source for this statement. All I see is a requirement that the doctor feels the exemption is indicated.



The likelihood that a child will suffer an injury or die from a vaccine preventable disease is much higher than the risk he will be injured or die from a vaccine. Who is held accountable if your unvaccinated child gives another child an infection that injures or kills him? the vaccinated child has recourse. The child injured by an unvaccinated child does not.



If you don't want to vaccinate, don't vaccinate.
My dear, Suzy, just because YOU want something, doesn't make it so. I know you DREAM of this, but similar legislation has already failed in 3 other states, or totally stalled in others.

Similar Federal legislation proposed by a Florida Congresswomen cannot even get a CO SPONSOR, let alone get out of Committee, Pass Both Houses of Congress, and ready for the President's approval.

California isn't the rest of the country, let alone the Federal Government. La La Land as rest of the states call it.

Have fun, Suzy, and Katrina. Suzy, both you and I live in Florida. There is NOTHING on the agenda to remove Religious Exemptions in this state. You health care professionals better hurry up and petition your legislators.
 
Old 07-14-2015, 06:27 PM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,401 posts, read 9,562,505 times
Reputation: 7421
Quote:
Originally Posted by leebeemi View Post
But, see, that would have qualified as a medical exemption. We can all have our opinions. When there are two sides, somebody loses, I guess. Hopefully, we err on the side of the greater good. In this case, the greater good is vaccinating, whether some like it or not. If there is reasonable evidence this is not in the best interest of the greater good, then I will be happy to lend my voice to the opposition. I don't think parents are making the best choices for their kids in this case. Vaccination rates continue to decline due to false fears and misinformation. This is an effort to counteract the massive movement that has spread outright nonsense.
The doctors in California that I've talked to would not write a medical exemption for a febrile seizure. Maybe you can find one that would. But as far as I know they will not.

In a country where you can buy alcohol, cigarettes, pot and our healthcare system is one of our leading killers I don't find the best interest argument outstanding. If we are going to start mandating based on what a small minority do in this country then I believe we will be climbing a slippery slope.

I just don't agree with mandates. I am for educating the public on vaccines and their benefit to our society.
 
Old 07-14-2015, 06:32 PM
 
Location: BC, Arizona
1,170 posts, read 749,604 times
Reputation: 2377
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
My dear, Suzy, just because YOU want something, doesn't make it so. I know you DREAM of this, but similar legislation has already failed in 3 other states, or totally stalled in others.

Similar Federal legislation proposed by a Florida Congresswomen cannot even get a CO SPONSOR, let alone get out of Committee, Pass Both Houses of Congress, and ready for the President's approval.

California isn't the rest of the country, let alone the Federal Government. La La Land as rest of the states call it.

Have fun, Suzy, and Katrina. Suzy, both you and I live in Florida. There is NOTHING on the agenda to remove Religious Exemptions in this state. You health care professionals better hurry up and petition your legislators.
The AMA is calling for an end to non-medical (including religious) exemptions:
"The American Medical Association was holding its annual meeting in Chicago, IL, when the group had decided to vote on ending the personal exemptions for vaccinations. The group is mobilizing to try to persuade the state legislatures to eliminate the non-medical reasons for exemptions, which includes religion, and is often the number one reason to try to get out of immunizations. The measles and whooping cough are often the most common vaccinations that see a push back and often religion is given as the excuse to get out of the vaccinations, but other reasons have also been used to keep children from getting the much-needed vaccinations."
AMA Wants to End Personal Vaccination Exemptions - The Gazette Review

It may not be on the legislative agenda, but if your anti-vax agenda is successful I predict it will be!

EDIT: Here's the state by state listing

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...in-your-state/
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