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Old 07-14-2015, 11:44 PM
 
Location: Amongst the AZ Cactus
7,074 posts, read 4,579,908 times
Reputation: 7672

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne View Post
A good analogy would be the government mandate to wear seat belts in a car. Do seat belts save lives in 100% of crashes? No, they don't. Are there ever auto accidents in which a fatality would have NOT occurred if the victim was unbelted? Yes, there are those rare instances. But, for the common good, and for the overwhelming benefit, drivers and passengers are required by law to wear seat belts.

There is no "universal law" that promises you that, unless something is guaranteed 100% safe, it cannot be mandated.
It's not a good analogy as you will be told it's off topic as driving without a seat belt doesn't affect others beyond the driver of the car because it's not contagious. But then again......and hark!.....right on cue....

Quote:
Originally Posted by tlvancouver View Post
This ^ and car crashes are not contagious!
But you seem to like that OT analogy, tlvancouver(with your "This" and up error and thumbs up icon), yet it doesn't line up well with the vaccine law and why it was created.

Interesting.....

 
Old 07-14-2015, 11:52 PM
 
11,898 posts, read 9,630,993 times
Reputation: 16280
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
And the fatalities from the disease are life and what just happens. The fact that the vaccines contain known toxins is the problem and why there should be a choice. Men have a choice as to whether they take viagra or not given the side effects...]
But the chances of you dying or being seriously injured for life from the disease itself are much greater than the chances of you dying or being seriously injured from the vaccine are. Do you seriously STILL not get the idea of risk and how that works? The vaccines are inarguably safer than the diseases themselves. No question. No matter what "evidence" or "studies" you share, it's a fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
  • sudden vision loss;
  • ringing in your ears, or sudden hearing loss;
  • chest pain or heavy feeling, pain spreading to the arm or shoulder, nausea, sweating, general ill feeling;
  • irregular heartbeat;
  • swelling in your hands, ankles, or feet;
  • shortness of breath;
  • vision changes;
  • feeling light-headed, fainting; or
  • penis erection that is painful or lasts 4 hours or longer.
Less serious side effects may include:
  • warmth or redness in your face, neck, or chest;
  • stuffy nose;
  • headache;
  • memory problems;
  • upset stomach; or
  • back pain.
(this is not the complete list of them but... Side Effects of Viagra (Sildenafil Citrate) Drug Center - RxList)
The choice to use the drug is there. However, you and other are saying that there should be no choice with vaccines even though there is an obvious risk.
Do you realize that when side effects are listed, they could be completely unrelated to the drug, but have to be included if that symptom happened to someone who was on the drug trial for research purposes? Once drugs have been cleared, they are given to people on a trial basis. It is a group of people who have to report any unusual phenomena, as it could be a possible side effect. Say someone has a nose bleed while taking the drug. The drug company would have to list nose bleeds as a side effect even if the nose bleed in that one person was completely coincidental. You can't prove it was or wasn't. So it must be included to be on the safe side. Keep this in mind when seeing drug side effects. http://www.pfizer.com/files/health/m...ty_and_You.pdf

This is a great article, should be a must-read for anti-vaxxers too even though it discusses drugs. It touches upon the fact that the adverse effects of drugs may not actually be caused by the drugs, though they will likely be attributed to it - I imagine some "adverse effects" to vaccines are the same. Really though, how can you prove the vaccine caused that reaction in someone? It's an interesting angle.

Also, I found this interesting article on side effects: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...-effects-drugs

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
The diseases are there and they have consequences. However, the vaccines have unknowns. Think of it this way... If I get smallpox, I have a 90% chance of recovering just fine (due to better medical care) but there is a chance that if I get the vaccine I will have lifetime scarring (my MIL) or get smallpox due to waning vaccination.
The diseases also have unknowns. You have no idea how your body will react. Something totally new and rarely seen before, or never seen before, could happen.

Also, even if you recover from smallpox, you will still probably be scarred, all over your body. This compared to the one pox scar at the injection site. Please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Now let's talk about a lesser disease such as chickepox or measles. The chances that I would have an adverse reaction to the vaccine are greater than a complication (in the USA). What would you choose?
Source? Is this because the incidences of these diseases in the US are so small, since vaccinations prevent them? So because vaccinations protect against the diseases, and they are rarely seen, complications are therefore also rare, since the disease itself is. I bet this is the case. The fact that you put "(in the USA)" says it all. So outside of the USA, where vaccination rates are much less and maybe even basically nonexistent, what you claimed is the case here ISN'T the case?

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Sure, I am vaccinated but I could still get measles because the vaccine is not 100% but we know wit 100% assurity that the vaccine contains known toxins. This means that I must choose between the two. Why am I not given that choice? Can I not choose the vaccine over the disease or the disease over the vaccine?
The chances of you getting measles despite the vaccination are slim, and even if you do, it's likely you will get a milder form than an unvaccinated person. If you are insane enough to actually choose measles over the vaccine then that IS your choice... but it sure as hell isn't a smart one, I'm sure most doctors and scientists would unanimously agree upon.

You really really like being 100% sure of things, huh? Life must be hard for you.
 
Old 07-14-2015, 11:53 PM
 
Location: BC, Arizona
1,170 posts, read 748,505 times
Reputation: 2377
I'm sure other anti-vaxers are cringing right now as the patent absurdity is exposed.

Viagra and aspirin as equivalent to vaccines???

These posts are so helpful to the pro public health cause.

Kayanne, are you starting to see the challenge of reasoned dialogue? (I really appreciate your voice in this discussion, thanks so much for weighing in, it's nice to have the silent majority of people who believe in the individual and collective good of vaccines.)
 
Old 07-14-2015, 11:56 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,390,644 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne View Post
A good analogy would be the government mandate to wear seat belts in a car. Do seat belts save lives in 100% of crashes? No, they don't. Are there ever auto accidents in which a fatality would have NOT occurred if the victim was unbelted? Yes, there are those rare instances. But, for the common good, and for the overwhelming benefit, drivers and passengers are required by law to wear seat belts.

There is no "universal law" that promises you that, unless something is guaranteed 100% safe, it cannot be mandated.
I had a cousin that was in an accident. The seat belt actually caused her to be in a coma for weeks then she had to relearn how to walk and speak. I am a pro-seat belt kinda person but I do advocate choice when it comes to driving. If you drive, you assume the risks... seat belts or not.

However, the same can be said for vaccines. If you are vaccinated, you assume the risks. The problem is that the risks with vaccines are what? Do you know? Does the average person know? In order to assess the risks we need some honest studies of the vaccines. That hasn't happened.
 
Old 07-14-2015, 11:58 PM
 
11,898 posts, read 9,630,993 times
Reputation: 16280
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
It's not a good analogy as you will be told it's off topic as driving without a seat belt doesn't affect others beyond the driver of the car because it's not contagious. But then again......and hark!.....right on cue....
Oh yes it does. See my post responding to kayanne's. A person who is not wearing a seatbelt becomes a projectile in an accident, as nothing is there to stop their body from being thrown from the force of the impact. The car has stopped but the energy has not, so the person keeps moving. This is why you can get whiplash when wearing a seatbelt in a crash. Your body tries to keep moving like the car was but the seatbelt stops you. This person not wearing the seatbelt can then hit other people in the car, and seriously injure or even kill them.
 
Old 07-15-2015, 12:10 AM
 
Location: Amongst the AZ Cactus
7,074 posts, read 4,579,908 times
Reputation: 7672
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
Oh yes it does. See my post responding to kayanne's. A person who is not wearing a seatbelt becomes a projectile in an accident, as nothing is there to stop their body from being thrown from the force of the impact. The car has stopped but the energy has not, so the person keeps moving. This is why you can get whiplash when wearing a seatbelt in a crash. Your body tries to keep moving like the car was but the seatbelt stops you. This person not wearing the seatbelt can then hit other people in the car, and seriously injure or even kill them.
Well, in theory I think you are correct, but let's face it.....most people who go flying out of a car in an accident bounce around in ugly ways outside of the car or more than likely causing no injury to anyone but themselves. Or they stay in the car during the accident and impact on the windshield, steering wheel, or are held inside the car by the air bags(side and front). If this was a big issue of "flying people projectile injury syndrome", every time a motorcycle or car gets into an accident, you'd read about the biker or people killing/injuring others while they are flying a few hundred feet in the air, towards another car, etc. It rarely happens if at all.

And if the government, who is always there to protect us of course and exists to do what's best for the health/wealth/well-being of its citizens, there would be rear seat belt laws in all/most states if what you're describing was a major issue. As it stands now, almost half the state don't require rear seat belt use.

State Seat Belt Laws

Plus in many of the states that have rear seat belt laws, it's not a primary law.
 
Old 07-15-2015, 12:13 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,390,644 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
But the chances of you dying or being seriously injured for life from the disease itself are much greater than the chances of you dying or being seriously injured from the vaccine are. Do you seriously STILL not get the idea of risk and how that works? The vaccines are inarguably safer than the diseases themselves. No question. No matter what "evidence" or "studies" you share, it's a fact.
Inarguable how? The medical care we have now and even alternative medicine can make a case of measles look insignificant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
Do you realize that when side effects are listed, they could be completely unrelated to the drug, but have to be included if that symptom happened to someone who was on the drug trial for research purposes? Once drugs have been cleared, they are given to people on a trial basis. It is a group of people who have to report any unusual phenomena, as it could be a possible side effect. Say someone has a nose bleed while taking the drug. The drug company would have to list nose bleeds as a side effect even if the nose bleed in that one person was completely coincidental. You can't prove it was or wasn't. So it must be included to be on the safe side. Keep this in mind when seeing drug side effects. http://www.pfizer.com/files/health/m...ty_and_You.pdf
Same with vaccines... right? So the people who report adverse reactions to vaccines... like screaming infants (with brain inflammation undiagnosed because that is "normal" with vaccines).
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
This is a great article, should be a must-read for anti-vaxxers too even though it discusses drugs. It touches upon the fact that the adverse effects of drugs may not actually be caused by the drugs, though they will likely be attributed to it - I imagine some "adverse effects" to vaccines are the same. Really though, how can you prove the vaccine caused that reaction in someone? It's an interesting angle.

Also, I found this interesting article on side effects: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...-effects-drugs
But vaccines aren't drugs... drugs treat things. Vaccines are given to healthy people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
The diseases also have unknowns. You have no idea how your body will react. Something totally new and rarely seen before, or never seen before, could happen.

Also, even if you recover from smallpox, you will still probably be scarred, all over your body. This compared to the one pox scar at the injection site. Please.
I've posted the CDC assessment of the types of small pox. 90% of which is pretty harmless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
Source? Is this because the incidences of these diseases in the US are so small, since vaccinations prevent them? So because vaccinations protect against the diseases, and they are rarely seen, complications are therefore also rare, since the disease itself is. I bet this is the case. The fact that you put "(in the USA)" says it all. So outside of the USA, where vaccination rates are much less and maybe even basically nonexistent, what you claimed is the case here ISN'T the case?
Are you saying that vaccines protect? I think they don't... considering that vaccinated people get the disease.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
The chances of you getting measles despite the vaccination are slim, and even if you do, it's likely you will get a milder form than an unvaccinated person. If you are insane enough to actually choose measles over the vaccine then that IS your choice... but it sure as hell isn't a smart one, I'm sure most doctors and scientists would unanimously agree upon.

You really really like being 100% sure of things, huh? Life must be hard for you.
So it is my choice? Really? You think that I should have the choice? So do I. We agree.
 
Old 07-15-2015, 12:21 AM
 
11,898 posts, read 9,630,993 times
Reputation: 16280
I am so done. The words I wish I could say about these people would get me banned, so my friends here, use your imaginations.
 
Old 07-15-2015, 12:24 AM
 
Location: Amongst the AZ Cactus
7,074 posts, read 4,579,908 times
Reputation: 7672
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
So it is my choice? Really? You think that I should have the choice? So do I. We agree.
Freedom for me to make an "irrational" choice and live with the consequences of my own actions?

That's the best news I heard all day!
 
Old 07-15-2015, 12:26 AM
 
Location: Washington state
4,680 posts, read 2,307,327 times
Reputation: 13699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Perhaps she caught it from a person who was vaccinated with the earlier, less effective Measles vax. from the 60s? Waning immunity. Never got a booster. If you read the news, media was telling anyone who got the early vax, to see their doctors about getting the newer vax. Do you think everyone did? Anti-vaxers or maybe just ignored the whole Disney outbreak. Before you start on me, I never had a measles vaccination, because I had measles myself. Do you TRUST that?

Maybe the person came from another country, or had visited another country? The latter is probably the most likely. International travelers. Close the borders to the US? These travelers will never come into contact with someone like that Washington woman? You cannot blame this kind of a situation on parents of unvaccinated children. The speculation was that the Disney carrier was a adult who had visited the Philippines. Was she born there and never was vaccinated in her childhood? Who knows? Nobody ever will. You will always have situations like this, even if you try forcing all little US children to be vaccinated.

There was a recent case back in April of an international traveler who flew into Miami. He flew on a plane with how many others? He stayed in a hotel and went to a convention there. Ate in restaurants. Traveled to other places in Florida. So how many people were exposed to him? WHERE was the media on this one? Crickets. Wouldn't you want to know about this? It did not involve CHILDREN like Disney. Media could not harp on anti-vaxer parents with this. These cases go under the radar, but they don't happen? Cannot fuel the fire of demanding that all US children be vaccinated.

TB? Never heard of a routine vaccination for that. Not on any CDC chart I have seen. I did know a woman who had TB. She did not know in the early stages that she had it. Could she have UNKOWNINGLY passed it on then? Of, course. She had never been to a foreign country. Who knows where she caught it from? They never found out. Tests for TB are required for some professions, but they do not VACCINATE for it. Sorry.
It was stated specifically that there had been children with measles in that hospital where the woman was. Measles is 90% transmissible. That means that out of 10 people exposed to measles, 9 will get it. For the simple-minded among us, that means measles is very, very, very easy to catch.

The child with the measles may very well have gotten them from someone from out of the country. But the fact is, he had them and had he been vaccinated, this woman might very well still be alive. And all your excuses and sugar coating isn't going to change that fact.

And yes, I do blame the parents. Just as I blame the parents of the children who got measles at Disneyland. The fact is, the majority of children who got measles from Disneyland were unvaccinated, and they managed to bring the measles home and exposed who knows how many other people. Do you know what happens when a pregnant woman gets measles or rubella? At the very least, she can miscarry. At the worst, her child will be born deformed.

Step 1 is that someone from out of the country brings in measles. Step 2 is that some parent doesn't vaccinate their child and that child catches those measles. Step 3 would be that child exposing someone else who couldn't be vaccinated - a fetus or an immune compromised person - to the measles they caught. Step 4 is that the pregnant woman miscarrying or the exposed person dying.

We went through Steps 1 and 2 with the Disneyland measles. Here in Washington, we went through Steps 1,2, 3, and 4. Some parent did not vaccinate their child, that child caught measles, those measles were passed to someone with an immune compromised system while in the same medical facility and that person died. Yes, those parents are. at. fault. If the woman who died was my daughter, I'd be moving heaven and earth to find the parents of the child who passed on those measles and I'd do my best to get them charged with negligible homicide. Because that's exactly what it is. Homicide through negligence.

There is a vaccine for TB, but it is not routine in America. Here in the US, TB is rampant in prisons and homeless shelters - in fact, homeless shelters is one of the best places to catch TB. I myself would sleep out on the street before I'd sleep in a homeless shelter. But prison guards have brought TB home just as homeless people will sometimes pass TB on to someone that waits on them. That person in turn may infect someone else. What you need to be aware of is that the multiple drug resistant strains of TB that started in Russian prisons is now here in America and they are deadly. In fact, there are now totally drug resistant strains of TB making the rounds.

What I was trying to point out is anti-vaxxers complain about government interference and the fact that California has taken a choice away from people. So using that logic, it would be safe to say that anti-vaxxers should consider the involuntary confining of people with TDR- and MDR-TB government interference at its worst. But what anti-vaxxer is going to willingly expose themselves or their children to TB? My guess is these people are the first ones to call for the government to confine people with TB, and that makes the anti-vaxxers a bunch of hypocrites. They're hypocrites in the same way when they bad mouth vaccines, but just let one of their children get bitten by a bat or a raccoon, and you'll see these anti-vaxxers scrambling to have their child inoculated for rabies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post


Small pox? really? Tell me why there was a spike after the vaccine.... http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/wp...8/graph-21.png
You really, seriously don't know how smallpox was eradicated? If you don't know that, then as far as I'm concerned, you''re not credible in anything else you post.

Last edited by rodentraiser; 07-15-2015 at 12:53 AM..
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