U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Current Events
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 07-15-2015, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,030 posts, read 98,929,643 times
Reputation: 31486

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by tlvancouver View Post
Does anybody get the impression that somebody rallied the troops on a conspiracy website? We've got a lot of old debunked "theories" reappearing all of a sudden .

Let me pre-emptively debunk what will come forward or has already been stated (note the actual links to actual science and data in this blog that deals with the most common anti-vax myths):
  • Anti-vaxers want vaccines that are 100% safe. This is never going to happen, as all medicines carry some risk. However, the relative risk of injury from vaccines is significantly lower than the risk of injury from getting the disease naturally. Prometheus, at Photon In the Darkness, explains how to calculate the risk of injury from the disease and the risk of injury from the vaccine. He also describes common errors that anti-vaxers make when determining the risk of injury from diseases and vaccines. For more information, see the CDC website.
  • Reduced vaccination rates lead to higher incidents of infection. This has been illustrated in the U.K. following Wakefield’s bogus study, in Germany in 2006 (including two deaths in unvaccinated children), in California, in MN (where an unvaccinated child died from hemophilus influenza type b).
  • Anti-vaxers claim that “Big Pharma” and physicians alike make lots of money from vaccines. If vaccination rates dropped, however, there would be an increase in preventable illnesses, many of which have high rates of complications resulting in hospitalization and expensive treatment. See the link about Germany above for information on costs associated with the measles outbreak there. The money to be made from the diseases far outweighs any money to be made from vaccines. Add to that fact an article from Sept. 11, 2009 showing that some doctors cannot afford to give vaccines due to lack of reimbursement from insurance companies.
  • Anti-vaxers claim that better hygiene has led to a decrease in disease, rather than vaccines. However, many of the diseases prevented by vaccines are airborne, and are not greatly impacted by improved sanitation or hygiene.
  • Some anti-vaxers claim that diseases such as smallpox or polio have not been affected by vaccines, but rather that these diseases were merely renamed. For example, some claim that smallpox was not eradicated, instead being renamed chicken pox. Similarly, they may say that paralytic polio was simply renamed meningitis. The problem with this claim is that these diseases are caused by very different entitities. Smallpox was caused by the Variola virus. Chicken pox is caused by the virus Varicella zoster. These viruses have different proteins, which result in different diseases. Likewise, polio is caused by poliovirus, while meningitis can be caused by a number of other viruses, like enteroviruses, coxsackieviruses, and echoviruses, not to mention the viruses that cause mumps, herpes or influenza. The viruses that cause of these diseases can be clearly identified and differentiated from other viruses. With that in mind, the claim that diseases have simply been renamed falls flat.
  • Anti-vaxers claim that too many antigens (the parts that make the vaccines work) are given at once, ignoring that infants and children are exposed to thousands of antigens every day by touching things and putting their hands or the object in their mouth, through absorption or by inhaling.
  • They claim that combination shots should be avoided, and that parents should break up the vaccinations into individual vaccines and spread them out. However, this increases the total number of shots received, as well as exposure to those various “toxins” they hate so much.
  • Some in the anti-vax movement say that an alternate, spaced-out schedule is better, yet they have no scientific studies to support such a protocol. In fact, a study published online in the journal Pediatrics on May 24, 2010 shows that children vaccinated on schedule do not show adverse outcomes as compared to those who received fewer vaccines or vaccines on a delayed schedule. They also claim that the schedule recommended by the CDC and American Academy of Pediatrics is not backed up by science. This is not true. Each year, the schedule is reviewed in the light of the latest scientific studies on vaccines and revised as necessary, with the newest recommendations being published each January.
  • Another claim made by anti-vaxers is that so-called “natural” immunity (i.e., immunity gained by infection with the disease) is better or lasts longer than immunity gained by a vaccine. This is not necessarily true. For example, natural immunity to pertussis, wears off after about 4-20 years and the vaccine-induced immunity wears off after 4-12 years. Therefore, even if an individual had pertussis as a child, they may still become infected as an adult, suffering the full effects and passing it on to others.
  • Some anti-vaxers will ask “why worry” whether they immunize their child or not, if you and your child(ren) have been immunized? There are a number of reasons. First, not everyone is able to be immunized, due to a variety of medical reasons (e.g., egg allergies, age, etc.). Second, vaccines are not 100% effective, though most are very close. This means that in order to prevent an outbreak, a high number of individuals needs to be immunized so that a virus or bacteria does not have enough potential hosts to sustain itself. There is a small possibility that even with vaccination, you will not gain immunity. Finally, there are some individuals (the elderly, AIDS patients, transplant recipients, some cancer patients, etc.) for whom vaccines just will not work or not work as well, because their immune system does not, or cannot, mount a full response to it. These individuals are also unlikely to gain immunity from infection, either. For all of these reasons, it is very important to keep vaccination rates up, so that those who do not or cannot benefit from vaccines are protected by herd immunity.
  • There have been no properly controlled studies establishing a causal link between vaccines and autism.
  • There have been numerous properly controlled studies sponsored and run by various people and organizations around the world that have shown no link between vaccines and autism.
http://antiantivax.flurf.net/
Yes, that was my thought when I saw all the anti-vax screeds in the last little bit here.

Allow me to expand upon a few of your points:

RE: making big bucks from vaccines- http://www.npr.org/sections/health-s...rs-for-doctors
There is also another study that just came out in the last few months confirming this, but I don't have it bookmarked.

Antigens: There are fewer antigens in the vaccines currently given children than there were in those given in the 1980s, which for some reason some parents (probably because they were born then and it's what they got) think of as some golden age of vaccines.
:: Vaccinate Your Baby : Too Many Vaccines? ::
In fact, babies got 20X the antigen in the 80s that they get now.

Combination shots: Back before some of the combination shots, parents complained about "too many shots". In reality, anti-vaxers will latch on to anything.

In essence, I agree with the entire post.

 
Old 07-15-2015, 01:07 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,030 posts, read 98,929,643 times
Reputation: 31486
Quote:
Originally Posted by OutdoorsyGal View Post
Yes I believe that is true. Most are more educated imho.
If you have a poster who brags about being so educated and brags about his/her job, it's usually an indicator he's fantasizing. When this is the norm in your culture/family, you think nothing of it to brag on it.
Yes we have a few engineers who did incredibly well for themselves. I don't know their thoughts on vaccines but I know they are into health. My brother in law has 100 employees, many cyclists. His wife is really into health also. We also have many doctors in our family, most are anti-vaccination overall. It depends upon the vaccination and risk factors.
That is very plausible
But most educated people vaccinate. Few doctors who actually work in pediatrics, family practice, or infectious disease oppose vaccinations. Look at the difference between Ben Carson, retired pediatric neurosurgeon and that doofus Rand Paul.
 
Old 07-15-2015, 01:08 PM
 
25,476 posts, read 23,317,854 times
Reputation: 15343
Quote:
Originally Posted by OutdoorsyGal View Post
And here is FACT-

The Tiskegee Syphlis Experiments. I wonder what experiment is planned right now?? How sick

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskeg...lis_experiment


The Tuskegee syphilis experiment (/tʌsˈkiːɡiː/)[1] was an infamous clinical study conducted between 1932 and 1972 by the U.S. Public Health Service to study the natural progression of untreated syphilis in rural African-American men in Alabama. They were told that they were receiving free health care from the U.S. government.[1]
The Public Health Service started working on this study in 1932 during the Great Depression, in collaboration with the Tuskegee Institute, a historically black college in Alabama. Investigators enrolled in the study a total of 600 impoverished sharecroppers from Macon County, Alabama. Of these men, 399 had previously contracted syphilis before the study began, and 201[2] did not have the disease. The men were given free medical care, meals, and free burial insurance for participating in the study. None of the men infected were ever told they had the disease, nor were any treated for it with penicillin after this antibiotic became proven for treatment. According to the Centers for Disease Control, the men were told they were being treated for "bad blood", a local term for various illnesses that include syphilis, anemia, and fatigue.

The 40-year study was controversial for reasons related to ethical standards, primarily because researchers knowingly failed to treat patients appropriately after the 1940s validation of penicillin as an effective cure for the disease they were studying. Revelation in 1972 of study failures by a whistleblower led to major changes in U.S. law and regulation on the protection of participants in clinical studies. Now studies require informed consent [3] communication of diagnosis, and accurate reporting of test results.[4]
By 1947, penicillin had become the standard treatment for syphilis. Choices available to the doctors involved in the study might have included treating all syphilitic subjects and closing the study, or splitting off a control group for testing with penicillin. Instead, the Tuskegee scientists continued the study without treating any participants; they withheld penicillin and information about it from the patients. In addition, scientists prevented participants from accessing syphilis treatment programs available to other residents in the area.[5] The study continued, under numerous US Public Health Service supervisors, until 1972, when a leak to the press resulted in its termination on November 16 of that year.[6] The victims of the study included numerous men who died of syphilis, 40 wives who contracted the disease, and 19 children born with congenital syphilis.
and then people on here suggest I'm wearing a tin foil hat b/c I don't trust the government...
honestly, when it involves money, big money, it's never going to be ethical.
 
Old 07-15-2015, 01:11 PM
 
25,476 posts, read 23,317,854 times
Reputation: 15343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
But most educated people vaccinate. Few doctors who actually work in pediatrics, family practice, or infectious disease oppose vaccinations. Look at the difference between Ben Carson, retired pediatric neurosurgeon and that doofus Rand Paul.
me having an immune deficiency, I am able to view both sides of this argument...what I cannot see, is when people argue their point to anger and frustration, I think logically all issues have good points of views....

but on this, there are two sides....regardless....any medicine is a chemical, and every individual person responds to it, differently, due to our genetics and so many other variables....what doesn't bother 10 million people, may bother one...in a very bad way....and my question is always this, what if it were your child who was fatally taken, right after just one of these shots....

Then it becomes an entirely different subject.
 
Old 07-15-2015, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Marquette, Mich
1,024 posts, read 386,942 times
Reputation: 2333
Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
me having an immune deficiency, I am able to view both sides of this argument...what I cannot see, is when people argue their point to anger and frustration, I think logically all issues have good points of views....

but on this, there are two sides....regardless....any medicine is a chemical, and every individual person responds to it, differently, due to our genetics and so many other variables....what doesn't bother 10 million people, may bother one...in a very bad way....and my question is always this, what if it were your child who was fatally taken, right after just one of these shots....

Then it becomes an entirely different subject.
That question assumes the child had a shot, right? I mean, that example is, "The child received a vaccine and died as a result of that vaccine," if I'm reading correctly. And that's a horrible scenario, of course. I am deeply saddened by any situation that leads to the death of a child--anyone would be. Pro- and anti-vaxxers alike.

So the question becomes: Is it worth the risk to vaccinate? If I'm evaluating based on factual evidence, the answer is yes. Because any numbers will indicated the RISK of a fatal or significantly severe reaction to the vaccine is much lower than the risk of a fatal or significantly severe reaction to the disease.

Now, if I had a child who had a severe reaction, and then had another child, would I have reason to be more cautious? More afraid? I'd say that's reasonable. But I'd have to work with my doctor on it. I had a near-fatal reaction to a pertussis vaccination as a child, but my parents opted to have me get my remaining vaccinations and have my sister fully vaccinated. Just as I had my children vaccinated, and have now received my full pertussis vaccination. None of those decisions was made lightly. But, even given the FACT that I had a severe reaction, it was a better risk to move forward with vaccinations in each case. There was information available, there were resources to consult. We didn't just flip a coin.

It's easy to let hyperbole and misinformation make us scared. It's easy to trust the easy way out--and it is the easy way out to opt out of vaccinations. No fuss, no muss. Until you infect someone who DIDN'T make that same choice. None of us lives in a vacuum. And, in the state of CA, if you want to send your children to public schools, unless there is a medical reason for exemption, they will need to be vaccinated. If you have fears, talk to your doctor about whether they are reasonable. But be prepared to find out that they may not be.
 
Old 07-15-2015, 01:38 PM
 
Location: Amongst the AZ Cactus
7,074 posts, read 4,586,372 times
Reputation: 7672
Quote:
Originally Posted by OutdoorsyGal View Post
Very odd. Outbreak in Disneyland produced no deaths whatsoever. It's just measles.

yet we want another holocaust where people are forced to accept vaccines and only their doctor can stop it under very narrow guidelines. Fascism is here, and just like the Holocaust, people are screaming for more of it. Then when they realize this big brother thing has gone too far, it will be too late.
What can you do? Not much
It appears the vast majority of people, I like to call them the herd, like to be told what/when/how to do it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OutdoorsyGal View Post
Most everyone, including myself, in our town is well educated.

That means nothing.
This is true. All one has to do is look at all the "educated" people running this country and the shape it's in to realize this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
But most educated people vaccinate. Few doctors who actually work in pediatrics, family practice, or infectious disease oppose vaccinations. Look at the difference between Ben Carson, retired pediatric neurosurgeon and that doofus Rand Paul.
And they made that choice all on their own to do so, without telling them they can't do this/that if they make said decision. I like that part!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
me having an immune deficiency, I am able to view both sides of this argument...what I cannot see, is when people argue their point to anger and frustration, I think logically all issues have good points of views....

but on this, there are two sides....regardless....any medicine is a chemical, and every individual person responds to it, differently, due to our genetics and so many other variables....what doesn't bother 10 million people, may bother one...in a very bad way....and my question is always this, what if it were your child who was fatally taken, right after just one of these shots....

Then it becomes an entirely different subject.
I agree. And that Dr. sitting in front of that patient has no way in the world of knowing how a person will react until after the fact. We human's ain't that smart, no matter how some out there want to put Dr.'s up on the high alter of all knowing.
 
Old 07-15-2015, 01:44 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,030 posts, read 98,929,643 times
Reputation: 31486
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
And they made that choice all on their own to do so, without telling them they can't do this/that if they make said decision. I like that part!
Not all of them. Many people vaccinate because they "have to" do it for school, or day care, etc.
 
Old 07-15-2015, 02:21 PM
 
169 posts, read 111,201 times
Reputation: 97
Unhappy Vaccine controversy

Quote:
Originally Posted by OutdoorsyGal View Post
Yes I have. The disease started about 1 1/2 hrs from our home in San Francisco.

I am not closed minded enough to think it didn't spread through vaccinations. That is VERY plausible.

As is injecting large amounts of hormones to effect a persons masculinity or femininity

It seems years back we saw a documentary upon this very thing. As if the vaccination was the cause

of AIDS and when they went back to speak with the family (Africa?) the kids verified their hut was very unsanitary

where their parents were making the vaccines. And somehow monkeys were involved, but I cannot recall exactly how that played
into it.



This is why unless it is a serious disease risking enough lives, we expect death as part of life.

We don't drug healthy people for every possible bump in the road. It just hurts their natural immune system and they are piling on more and more drugs/vaccines, it's just scary
It's all part of the Govt. population control plan. I know of two families that have 6-8 children a piece and none of there children have questionable issues. It is so, so scary
 
Old 07-15-2015, 02:32 PM
 
Location: BC, Arizona
1,170 posts, read 749,376 times
Reputation: 2377
Quote:
Originally Posted by A-Z16 View Post
It's all part of the Govt. population control plan. I know of two families that have 6-8 children a piece and none of there children have questionable issues. It is so, so scary
Please tell me you're joking?
 
Old 07-15-2015, 02:39 PM
 
Location: california
920 posts, read 599,544 times
Reputation: 1064
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
But most educated people vaccinate. Few doctors who actually work in pediatrics, family practice, or infectious disease oppose vaccinations. Look at the difference between Ben Carson, retired pediatric neurosurgeon and that doofus Rand Paul.
Yes because most people are for vaccinations overall. But as for the percentage of educated people, they are more likely to avoid vaccinations. If you look at the data, children who attend private school, charter school or home school are less likely to be vaccinated versus the traditional 5 day public school.

Ben Carson is a Seventh Day Adventist so imho, he's involved in a Cult. I'm a little skittish of that cult since I was baptized SDA many years ago. I saw a movie about his life some years back called Gifted Hands, highly recommend it. The SDAs are like the Mormons, they have their own Prophet. Her name is Ellen White.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Current Events
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top