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Old 07-15-2015, 02:07 PM
5,648 posts, read 3,199,848 times
Reputation: 6629


Originally Posted by tlvancouver View Post
I'm a 49 year old practicing attorney. You?
Retired. If you REALLY ARE an Attorney, they you would know enough to go to Original State Sources on State Vaccination requirements and exemptions, and not some map. Any legal brief must cite sources, and State Government requirements for public schools would be a legitimate source to cite. You map would never hold up in any court of law to prove your case.

Florida still has a Religious Exemption for children in K-12. YOU do your own research on that. Unlike California, the majority of states are very, very reluctant to take away religious rights. Haven't we seen all the backlash just to the contraception mandate based on religion?

Old 07-15-2015, 02:09 PM
Location: california
920 posts, read 598,761 times
Reputation: 1064
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Fisher is convinced vaccines caused her child to be autistic. She has made a career out of insisting vaccines cause autism. They do not, but if she admits that, she's out of a job.

We already know that people who do not vaccinate feel no ethical obligation to reduce the risk of harm to others, so such behavior would not be surprising, would it?

The idea is to prevent epidemics, not wait until they happen, and the increasing number of outbreaks due to declining vaccination rates justifies mandates to get the rates back up again.

Fear is the only thing anti-vaccinationists have. They do not have any facts to support not vaccinating. None.


Hundreds of Arizona schools skirting vaccination rule

Don't be too eager to move.

The original article had multiple authors; ten of them withdrew their support of the paper years before it was withdrawn by the Lancet. As you have been told, the colleague who was "exonerated" was able to show he was misled by Wakefield.

Choose to not vaccinate. That choice is preserved. You cannot send your child to public school in California if you do not. Cheer up, though. In Australia not vaccinating will cost you cold, hard cash.

Please show us how any treatment can make a case of measles look insignificant. We can help relieve symptoms. With intensive care we can save some lives. But viral diseases cannot be cured. They just have to run their courses, and some will cause complications and deaths.

You are more likely to get "brain inflammation" from the disease than from the vaccine: 2 in 1000 from the disease, at most 1 in a million from the vaccine.

MMR Decision Aid - Comparing the risks - Measles - NCIRS - National Centre for Immunisation Research and Surveillance

I know others have challenged this, but to quote the late, great Lewis Grizzard, "D****, brother! I don't believe I'd a told that!"

It does not make you sound smart.

If exposed, most vaccinated people do not get the disease. If exposed, most unvaccinated people do.

The state wide vaccination rate is not the issue. The concern is that people who refuse to vaccinate like to live near others who refuse to vaccinate. That increases the risks of larger outbreaks.

If other issues need to be addressed, they need to be addressed. That is no reason to ignore the risks that clusters of unvaccinated people present.

Most of the decisions people make affect only themselves. Vaccination is not one of those, and mandates can help increase vaccination rates. Other problems are irrelevant to vaccines. We need to tackle those, too, but their existence does not have anything to do with vaccination.

The risk of a fatal reaction to a vaccine is so low it is virtually impossible to measure it. That is why saying "knowing someone is going to have a reaction that could be fatal" is a crock full of you know what. People definitely die from vaccine preventable diseases, though.

The probability of a child dying from a vaccine is tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny. You will find many parents of children who died from vaccine preventable diseases who will say they wish they had vaccinated, though.

We are on the verge of not having enough people vaccinated to prevent epidemics. That is the whole point of mandates: to stop the declining vaccination rates that will allow a resurgence of vaccine preventable diseases.

No one denies that vaccine injuries exist. They do, just not in the numbers you are trying to make us believe.

The compensation program does provide awards for true vaccine injuries. It even provides compensation to some people whose injuries may have been caused by something other than the vaccine, since a claimant does not have to prove the vaccine caused the injury, only that it might have.

The number is small due to the fact that most people vaccinate. Stop vaccinating, and more people will die.

You have already been told that many side effects listed in package inserts are there whether the vaccine caused them or not. True, known adverse effects are listed and also discussed in the vaccine information statement given to anyone who takes a vaccine.

Te actual number of severe injuries truly caused by vaccines is so small it's hard to calculate.

The only vaccine injury that could cause sudden death is an allergic reaction. Most severe allergic reactions are successfully treated and are not fatal.

Your argument is so circuitous I get dizzy looking at it. Is it possible your child could have a severe reaction to a vaccine? Yes. Is it probable? No. It is very highly improbable, and much less probable than having a dangerous complication from a vaccine preventable disease.

We could prove that some of the injuries for which awards were made are not due to the vaccine, if we demanded proof from claimants? Is that what you want? For Guillain Barre syndrome, for example, the illness has only to fall within a certain time frame after the vaccination for an award to be made. In many people, the GBS very likely was related to an infection, not the vaccine. Do you want a claimant to have to prove he did not have GBS due to a Campylobacter infection?

Thanks for showing just how rare serious injuries due to vaccines are, especially when you realize some injuries were compensated that were not even due to the vaccine. The risk of a compensable injury - some of which resolved without any permanent harm - was one in a million doses.

No, that does not mean they cannot prove any of them. It means they did not have to.

The first rotavirus vaccine was pulled off the market because the association with intussusception was felt to be causal. Better vaccines were developed. Isn't that what you want: better vaccines? The problem is that in your view no vaccine will ever be good enough. Expecting a vaccine to be 100% safe is unrealistic. That's like insisting no automobiles should be produced until they are all 100% reliable and never break down.

The proven safety of vaccines is so great that we can ethically mandate vaccination.

In epidemiology, eliminated and eradicated are different concepts.

Eliminated means the disease no longer circulates in a location. In the US, that has been achieved. All measles cases happen because someone brings it in from another country.

Eradicated means it's gone worldwide. So far two viruses have been eradicated: smallpox and rinderpest (which affected ruminants, especially cattle). The eradication of polio is within reach.

Religious objections are in essence philosophical objections. None of the major religions in this country have strict prohibitions against vaccines. As your link shows, even the Catholic Church feels that the benefits of vaccines make it ethical to use them.

We have seen that people lie about religious exemptions, and those with religious objections do vaccinate when the disease gets up close and personal in their communities.

Sorry, but if the doctrine of the church you attend does not forbid vaccination, I do not believe you can claim to have a religious objection to it.

The amount of aluminum in vaccines is not toxic. You get more from food and water every day than from all the vaccines an individual will ever take. And no, getting it in a shot makes no difference. The same with all the other vaccine ingredients that ant-vaccinationists rail against, including formaldehyde.

"Natural" doctors get into trouble when they do things that hurt people. Do you really want them to be able to hurt people? as long as they do no harm, they are pretty well allowed to go their merry way. The fact that much of what they do is useless is just fine. As long as people want to pay for worthless "detoxification" they may do so.

Geier lost his license in multiple states, primarily because he was treating kids with autism with Lupron. He was doing harm.

Harpocrates Speaks: Mark Geier: Not a Leg to Stand On

"Dr. Geier, through his Institute of Chronic Illness and Genetic Centers of America, misdiagnosed autistic children with precocious puberty so he could claim that he was using Lupron on label, rather than for an unapproved, experimental indication (i.e., autism). This also allowed him to bill insurance companies for the lupron. His actions got him into hot water with various state medical boards, starting with his medical license in Maryland being suspended on April 27, 2011. Since then, one by one, 11 of his 12 medical licenses were suspended, an application for a thirteenth license in Ohio was denied, and some of those suspensions became complete revocations. The last actions I wrote about were the revocation of his license in Missouri and suspension of his Illinois license. At the time, the only state left in which Dr. Geier could practice was Hawaii.

As of April 11, 2013, that is no longer the case.

Although his license listing on the Hawaii state Professional and Vocational Licensing search has yet to be updated as of this writing, searching the state's RICO Complaint History database reveals that the board revoked his license last month. The case number is MED 2011-79-L (if the link to the PDF doesn't work, go to the OAH Decisions web site, click on OAH Final Orders and search for "Geier"). According to the Final Order, a petition for disciplinary action against Dr. Geier was filed on July 17, 2012, Geier was notified on November 19, and a hearing was held on February 5 of this year. Dr. Geier failed to appear for the hearing and did not file for exceptions or extensions to delay the hearing."

Geier did get his day in court in Maryland:


HIPAA does not apply to schools. Other laws do.

Vaccines have small failure rates. They protect all but a few who get them. Ninety percent of those who are not vaccinated will get measles if exposed; only 5% of vaccinated people will. That means an unvaccinated child is more likely to catch measles and expose someone else, including the five percent of vaccinated people for whom the vaccine did not work, babies too young to be vaccinated, and people with compromised immune systems.

Wow! Great job of packing multiple vaccine myths into one paragraph! See #1, 5, and 12 here:

Myths That Keep People From Vaccinating Their Kids

Informed consent has nothing to do with mandates. It is part of the process for everyone who vaccinates. This has been explained for you before.

Another myth and a conspiracy theory to top it off!

See #46.

Myths That Keep People From Vaccinating Their Kids

There is no squalene in any vaccine sold in the US. It is used in a flu vaccine available in Europe, but there have been no injuries attributable to it.

Shattering the Myths About Squalene in Vaccines | WIRED

Don't lick your fingers, though. There is natural squalene on them.

See #11 and 46:

Myths That Keep People From Vaccinating Their Kids

There is no fetal tissue in any vaccine.
Suzy can you break up your replies? This is really long...
Old 07-15-2015, 02:10 PM
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,992 posts, read 98,847,978 times
Reputation: 31412
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
I could see that happening. People lie about their addresses in order to get into better schools outside of their district so I don't see why people wouldn't lie about vaccination status to retain their right to choose as well as their right to access public education.
Yet you have gone on record as saying people wouldn't lie about a VAERS report to make money.

Originally Posted by OutdoorsyGal View Post
If you had been in my shoes, you may not find his religion irrelevant.
Yes their religion matters to me regarding their credibility.
But he could still be the better candidate, I am not arguing that.
I've never seen so much drug use as I did attending the SDA church. It was rampid.
Most of the women were on mind altering medications. And that's the least of their problems
For God's sake (pun intended)! Carson is not my candidate. He's an example of a pro-vaccine doctor who is a pediatrician.

@suzy-I think the law Jo is referencing is FERPA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family...nd_Privacy_Act
Old 07-15-2015, 02:13 PM
Location: california
920 posts, read 598,761 times
Reputation: 1064
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
For God's sake (pun intended)! Carson is not my candidate. He's an example of a pro-vaccine doctor who is a pediatrician.
I really don't care.

I never considered who you were endorsing, relax a bit.
Old 07-15-2015, 02:14 PM
6,952 posts, read 8,883,901 times
Reputation: 7809
I can't believe this is still a controversy at all. Vaccines are the reason we went from under a billion people to more than 6 billion in a couple of generations. Before vaccines, you had to have 11 kids in order to make sure 3 of them would survive to adulthood to support you in your old age. It's now clearly known that vaccines do not, after all, cause autism, and in fact the autistic child's severe reactions to some vaccines can flush out the symptoms sooner so they can get effective autism treatment years earlier. So where's the controversy? Some people get bad batches of vaccine, for sure, and some people have bad reactions to good vaccines. But the trade-off benefits are almost too big to measure.
Old 07-15-2015, 02:15 PM
Location: BC, Arizona
1,170 posts, read 748,319 times
Reputation: 2377
Originally Posted by OutdoorsyGal View Post
Suzy can you break up your replies? This is really long...
Facts are hard to comprehend.

Have you even read this thread?

I know it's "really long" but you're posting videos and links that have already been clearly addressed.
Old 07-15-2015, 02:19 PM
Location: Phoenix, AZ
3,510 posts, read 2,796,437 times
Reputation: 6371
Originally Posted by OutdoorsyGal View Post
Agreed. It could very well be history repeating itself (holocaust for example).

I am not totally against vaccinations but this big brother mentality of drugging ourselves to prevent bumps in the road without a real risk.
Smallpox, now that was a true threat.

Here's a photo on wiki of a child with small pox.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox

"The disease killed an estimated 400,000 Europeans annually during the closing years of the 18th century (including five reigning monarchs),[10] and was responsible for a third of all blindness"

Without a real risk, you mean like polio, measles, rubella and many other diseases that led to death, paralysis and permanent disability. There are plenty of diseases that humans struggle with already, no need to start bringing back entirely preventable diseases all based on nothing more than a series of conspiracy theories.

I'm guessing that the parents in Spain who recently lost their child to diphtheria, a disease that is completely preventable were it not for them deciding not to vaccinate their child, feel pretty let down and manipulated by the anti-vaccine crowd.


Here’s an interesting fact about diphtheria: When it was still a common illness in 1970s, it was known as “the strangling angel of children.” Here’s a less interesting one: Nearly three decades after its eradication in Spain, it’s back.
This new case comes in the form of a 6-year-old boy, whose parents are watching him “fight for his life” in a Barcelona intensive care unit. Since his diagnosis, eight other children he came in contact with have tested positive for the bacterium that causes the illness.
So why has a disease with a nickname that seems ripped straight from Game of Thrones back in a nation as developed as Spain? Simple: because his parents did not have him vaccinated against it—a decision his parents understandably have come to profoundly regret. Admittedly swayed by the anti-vaccination movement in the U.S., the couple is reportedly “destroyed” and feels “cheated” by the anti-vaxxers.
The boy, who had been in the pediatric intensive care unit of Vall d'Hebron university hospital since the end of May, died early on Saturday.
He was not vaccinated against diphtheria because his parents were against him getting inoculated amidst controversies over the shot's potential side effects.
The boy's treatment experienced delays because of difficulties in getting the right antitoxin in Europe. It was eventually provided by Russia.
The health services in Spain's Catalonia region said that one adult and nine other children were exposed to the bacteria but were lucky enough to have not developed the disease because they were all vaccinated.

Vaccination rates in Spain are high but health experts continue to urge parents to have their children vaccinated.

In Indonesia they've recently had a rash of diphtheria outbreaks and deaths......all linked back to fundamentalist groups that believed that vaccination was a conspiracy and an affront to their religious beliefs.

In Padang, 62 people are suspected to be infected, with six diagnosed positive and two dead, while in Aceh, 16 are infected and two have died from the disease. The city of Padang has declared the outbreak of diphtheria a public health emergency.

“When we traveled to Padang [during the outbreak], officials from the local health agency explained that there had been growing opposition to vaccination. People there deemed vaccines haram after hearing certain people saying so at the mosque. In strongly religious regions, these rumors are quite effective in turning people against immunization,” Piprim said. - See more at: Religious teaching blamed for diphtheria outbreaks | The Jakarta Post
These diseases didn't just stop being dangerous and are among the most infectious of all diseases. Its like people are happy to forget history and buy into the scare-mongering that vaccines are some nonsensical conspiracy rather than the greatest public health advancement ever.
Old 07-15-2015, 02:22 PM
5,648 posts, read 3,199,848 times
Reputation: 6629
Originally Posted by OutdoorsyGal View Post
Suzy can you break up your replies? This is really long...
She goes on and on and on. I do not think she understands that there are those of us who consider this a freedom and choice issue. She doesn't understand that there are those of us who DID vaccinate our own children, but believe in choice of others to refuse. Science is irrelevant to us, from either side.
Old 07-15-2015, 02:29 PM
Location: BC, Arizona
1,170 posts, read 748,319 times
Reputation: 2377
Originally Posted by jo48 View Post
she goes on and on and on. I do not think she understands that there are those of us who consider this a freedom and choice issue. She doesn't understand that there are those of us who did vaccinate our own children, but believe in choice of others to refuse. science is irrelevant to us, from either side.

and we have a winner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Old 07-15-2015, 02:34 PM
Location: california
920 posts, read 598,761 times
Reputation: 1064
Originally Posted by tlvancouver View Post
Facts are hard to comprehend.

Have you even read this thread?

I know it's "really long" but you're posting videos and links that have already been clearly addressed.
Try to follow along. I was not referring to this thread
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