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Old 04-26-2015, 07:28 PM
 
8,326 posts, read 8,605,753 times
Reputation: 26005

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dysgenic View Post
I believe the Declaration of Independence pretty much destroys any notion of the legality of using violence to force people to use needles to inject their children with chemicals.
The Declaration of Independence is that, a declaration. It is unlike the Constitution in that the United States was not even a legal entity at the time it was issued. It even says it doesn't grant anyone any rights. It says that all the rights it speaks of are "God given". Legislatures pass laws and the Continental Congress was not a state or national legislature. The Declaration imposes no requirements or penalties on anyone. Hence, by no definition is the Declaration of Independence a law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dysgenic View Post
Of course the declaration of independence is legally binding.
Your argument is nonsensical for the reasons explained above. Go take a course in American History at your local college and university. Ask your instructor these questions and than get back to us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Some of them will have decide between putting food on the table or vaccinating. Not everyone can stay home and homeschool. Not everyone can afford to.

Yes, people who question vaccines do tend to be highly educated and intelligent. Income is not always in line with education nor is cost of living. Many have to work no matter what. Not everyone can have a flexible schedule which means that some will be forced against their will to have their children vaccinated due to the elimination of exemptions.

People have the right to have equal access to public education. It's wrong to force them out of the system over something like this.
The right of access to such education can be waived by noncompliance with rules. Your children can't attend school in the nude. They can't bring cigarettes and smoke them in class. They can't party in class and refuse to let the teacher teach.

I do toy with ideas like putting all non-vaccinated children in the same classroom together. Perhaps, that would persuade some non-vaccinators to get vaccinated. I've often thought many of them are simply a selfish lot that avoid vaccinating on the assumption that all the other kids around their children will be vaccinated. That way they avoid taking even the slightest bit of tiny risk that does come with immunization and make others do the work for them. Put their kids in a class with other totally non-vaccinated kids and I bet many would change their tune completely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dysgenic View Post
That is untrue, that's the problem. See the Declaration of Independence.
Even if the Declaration of Independence were a law, it wouldn't keep you from having to vaccinate your kids. The same language about liberty is in the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution and the Supreme Court has ruled in Jacobson v. Massachusetts and Zucht v. King that states may require citizens to vaccinate. If you have a different opinion, fine. That's all it is: Your opinion standing on its own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Post after post you call people who don't vaccinate for everything on the schedule, "conspiracy theorists" and refer to Jenny McCarthy as their leader. It really shows a lack of understanding as well as a lack of regard for people who do not feel the same way about vaccines or health as you do. The fact is, most people vaccinate willingly. Narrowing in on the tiny subset of the population who does not is misguided and seems almost like a witch hunt. Maybe one day you'll be forced into undergoing a medical intervention or treatment that you disagree with. Maybe then you'll understand. Of course by then it will be too late and you'll only be able to thank yourself for opening the door to this type of government overreach.
Vaccination has been mandated for over a hundred years. Its not new. Its not an example of "Big Brother" encroaching ever more on your freedom. Freedom and liberty have their limits. Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins. Your right to send your child to school ends when you don't vaccinate that child to help prevent the spread of contagious disease.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dysgenic View Post
I do understand your argument, I just don't agree. I don't agree that I have a responsibility toward a (debatable) potential eventuality that may or may not occur. Especially when that responsibility includes the forced injection of a child. And I also believe that vaccines do cause autism- especially MMR.
Belief in the Tooth Fairy or the Easter Bunny has as much evidence to support it as anti-vaccination propaganda.

These studies all show there is no link between autism and vaccination. Read carefully and get back to me.


CDC - Concerns About Autism - Vaccine Safety

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
People will have to choose between paying their bills or vaccinating. Your doubt will not change that fact. Not everyone can homeschool.
Your child's right to education should not trump my child's right to an education. You have no right to be free from disease. None. You should not be able to force people into getting vaccines if they are against them. It's just wrong.
It won't trump that right if you'll take little Johnny down to the doc and get him his shots. I bet you could do that in about an hour if you tried. Prevention of contagious disease is within the police powers of a state which historically and legally include the right to protect the health, welfare, and safety of their inhabitants. You can believe that mandatory vaccination laws interfere with your rights if you want too. The courts don't accept that idea and their opinion is the one that counts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dysgenic View Post
You see, yet another ad hominem attack. This time trying to insinuate that I am a conspiracy monger simply because I don't believe that violence against children should be lawful. But apparently, you do.
You don't make arguments. You simply offer one run-on opinion after another. Its a bit tedious to see it. A real argument would be saying "I believe X because (citation to articles, authority)" with an explanation of what those articles mean. You don't seem to understand that when all you do is say things like "vaccines cause autism" that you haven't made an argument. You've stated nothing, but a silly and unsupportable opinion.

That is why you aren't taken seriously.

Last edited by markg91359; 04-26-2015 at 08:20 PM..

 
Old 04-26-2015, 07:37 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
3,510 posts, read 2,800,599 times
Reputation: 6371
Quote:
Originally Posted by dysgenic View Post
Please show me where The Constitution and Declaration of Independence contradict each other. Your entire claim is a cleverly framed lawyers argument intended to make it look as if things are different than they really are.





All anyone can do is shake their head and laugh at this point.
 
Old 04-26-2015, 07:51 PM
 
8,546 posts, read 5,279,681 times
Reputation: 9115
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
I do toy with ideas like putting all non-vaccinated children in the same classroom together. Perhaps, that would persuade some non-vaccinators to get vaccinated. I've often thought many of them are simply a selfish lot that avoid vaccinating on the assumption that all the other kids around their children will be vaccinated. That way they avoid taking each the slightest bit of tiny risk that does come with immunization and make others do the work for them. Put their kids in a class with other totally non-vaccinated kids and I bet many would change their tune completely.
I don't think those who don't vaccinate would feel threatened by being put in a classroom filled with others who don't vaccinate. Lol! Your thoughts show a total and complete lack of understanding of the group that you are attempting to insult.

Quote:
Vaccination has been mandated for over a hundred years. Its not new. Its not an example of "Big Brother" encroaching ever more on your freedom. Freedom and liberty have their limits. Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins. Your right to send your child to school ends when you don't vaccinate that child to help prevent the spread of contagious disease.
One hundred years ago one vaccine was mandated due to an outbreak. That is quite different from forcing people to vaccinate for any and every available vaccine that bureaucrats decide to put on the schedule. Some like you are comfortable walking down this road. Others see it as a risky path.

Quote:
It won't trump that right if you'll take little Johnny down to the doc and get him his shots. I bet you could do that in about an hour if you tried. Prevention of contagious disease is within the police powers of a state which historically and legally include the right to protect the health, welfare, and safety of their inhabitants. You can believe that mandatory vaccination laws interfere with your rights if you want too. The courts don't accept that idea and their opinion is the one that counts.
If I thought x vaccine was the best thing for little Johnny then I would already have had little Johnny vaccinated for x. The law is not always moral. It can be twisted and manipulated. As a lawyer, I'm sure you know that.
 
Old 04-26-2015, 07:56 PM
 
1,918 posts, read 1,090,778 times
Reputation: 2074
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
The Declaration of Independence is that, a declaration. It is unlike the Constitution in that the United States was not even a legal entity at the time it was issued. It even says it doesn't grant anyone any rights. It says that all the rights it speaks of are "God given". Legislatures pass laws and the Continental Congress was not a state or national legislature. The Declaration imposes no requirements or penalties on anyone. Hence, by no definition is the Declaration of Independence a law.


If it's 'just a document', why is it taught in school? Answer- it's taught in school because the whole country is based upon that document.

Quote:
Your argument is nonsensical for the reasons explained above. Go take a course in American History at your local college and university. Ask your instructor these questions and than get back to us.
I think I'm on safe ground when I say that The Declaration of Independence is an important document. I don't need to confirm that with any of your recommended authority figures.

Quote:
The right of access to such education can be waived by noncompliance with rules. Your children can't attend school in the nude. They can't bring cigarettes and smoke them in class. They can't party in class and refuse to let the teacher teach.
All of your examples are extremely poor as none of them involve violence, imposition, or coercion against the students.

Quote:
I do toy with ideas like putting all non-vaccinated children in the same classroom together. Perhaps, that would persuade some non-vaccinators to get vaccinated. I've often thought many of them are simply a selfish lot that avoid vaccinating on the assumption that all the other kids around their children will be vaccinated. That way they avoid taking each the slightest bit of tiny risk that does come with immunization and make others do the work for them. Put their kids in a class with other totally non-vaccinated kids and I bet many would change their tune completely.
I'd be fine with this, for one.


Quote:
Even if the Declaration of Independence were a law, it wouldn't keep you from having to vaccinate your kids. The same language about liberty is in the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution and the Supreme Court has ruled in Jacobson v. Massachusetts and Zucht v. King that states may require citizens to vaccinate. If you have a different opinion, fine. That's all it is: Your opinion standing on its own.
The point does not require the Declaration of Independence, or The Constitution, or any other document or law to prove its veracity. Violence and coercion are wrong.


Quote:
Vaccination has been mandated for over a hundred years. Its not new. Its not an example of "Big Brother" encroaching ever more on your freedom. Freedom and liberty have their limits. Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins
.

This analogy is terrible. You are taking the victim and trying to make him the perpetrator.

Quote:
Your right to send your child to school ends when you don't vaccinate that child to help prevent the spread of contagious disease.
The only way this is true is if vaccines aren't effective in the first place.


Quote:
Belief in the Tooth Fairy or the Easter Bunny has as much evidence to support it as anti-vaccination propaganda.

These studies all show there is no link between autism and vaccination. Read carefully and get back to me.


CDC - Concerns About Autism - Vaccine Safety
I can assure you that I've spent ample time studying the facts. I believe that pretty much anyone that looks into this matter in enough depth will inevitably come to the same conclusion that I have.
By the way I wouldn't believe anything that the CDC says. They are an extremely unreliable source based upon my research.


Quote:
It won't trump that right if you'll take little Johnny down to the doc and get him his shots. I bet you could do that in about an hour if you tried. Prevention of contagious disease is within the police powers of a state which historically and legally include the right to protect the health, welfare, and safety of their inhabitants. You can believe that mandatory vaccination laws interfere with your rights if you want too. The courts don't accept that idea and their opinion is the one that counts.
The only way this argument hold any water at all is if vaccines aren't effective in the first place.


Quote:
You don't make arguments. You simply offer one run-on opinion after another. Its a bit tedious to see it. A real argument would be saying "I believe X because (citation to articles, authority)" with an explanation of what those articles mean. You don't seem to understand that when all you do is say things like "vaccines cause autism" that you haven't made an argument. You've stated nothing, but a silly and unsupportable opinion.

That is why you aren't taken seriously.
Oh, please. There is no difference between you saying that vaccines don't cause autism and me saying they do.
 
Old 04-26-2015, 07:57 PM
 
1,918 posts, read 1,090,778 times
Reputation: 2074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juram View Post



All anyone can do is shake their head and laugh at this point.
This is another ad hominem attack.
 
Old 04-26-2015, 08:13 PM
 
8,326 posts, read 8,605,753 times
Reputation: 26005
Quote:
Originally Posted by dysgenic View Post
If it's 'just a document', why is it taught in school? Answer- it's taught in school because the whole country is based upon that document.



I think I'm on safe ground when I say that The Declaration of Independence is an important document. I don't need to confirm that with any of your recommended authority figures.



All of your examples are extremely poor as none of them involve violence, imposition, or coercion against the students.



I'd be fine with this, for one.




The point does not require the Declaration of Independence, or The Constitution, or any other document or law to prove its veracity. Violence and coercion are wrong.


.

This analogy is terrible. You are taking the victim and trying to make him the perpetrator.



The only way this is true is if vaccines aren't effective in the first place.




I can assure you that I've spent ample time studying the facts. I believe that pretty much anyone that looks into this matter in enough depth will inevitably come to the same conclusion that I have.
By the way I wouldn't believe anything that the CDC says. They are an extremely unreliable source based upon my research.




The only way this argument hold any water at all is if vaccines aren't effective in the first place.




Oh, please. There is no difference between you saying that vaccines don't cause autism and me saying they do.
No, the difference is that if you had bothered to read the link, you'd see that nine separate scientific studies have been conducted since 2003 that examine whether there is a link between autism and vaccines. All nine of those studies show there is no link.

All you have is a unsupported opinion claiming there is such a link.

I'd give up before you make yourself look any more foolish.

Last edited by markg91359; 04-26-2015 at 08:22 PM..
 
Old 04-26-2015, 08:20 PM
 
1,918 posts, read 1,090,778 times
Reputation: 2074
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
No, the difference is that if you had bothered to read the link, you'd see that nine separate secintific studies have been conducted since 2003 that examine whether there is a link between autism and vaccines. All nine of those studies show there is no link.

All you have is a unsupported opinion claiming there is such a link.

I'd give up before you make yourself look any more foolish.
For the most part, I don't post links. It's my experience that the posting of links usually just leads to an attack of the source, so it never helps. Links don't prove a thing, anyway.
 
Old 04-26-2015, 08:28 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,568 posts, read 26,190,928 times
Reputation: 26618
Quote:
Originally Posted by dysgenic View Post
Please show me where The Constitution and Declaration of Independence contradict each other. Your entire claim is a cleverly framed lawyers argument intended to make it look as if things are different than they really are.
They do not contradict one another. It is just that the Constitution is not based on the Declaration of Independence.

Mark's the lawyer, not me!

Quote:
Nothing. The point is that if violence is used to force parents into injecting their innocent children with chemicals by needle, most do not have the practical option of pulling their kids out of school as a countermeasure. And of course, no one has the option of opting out of paying for the school system in the first place.
No one forces you to vaccinate. How you deal with the consequences is totally up to you.

In my neck of the woods, only property owners pay for schools. That means plenty of people pay not a single penny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
I don't think those who don't vaccinate would feel threatened by being put in a classroom filled with others who don't vaccinate. Lol! Your thoughts show a total and complete lack of understanding of the group that you are attempting to insult.

One hundred years ago one vaccine was mandated due to an outbreak. That is quite different from forcing people to vaccinate for any and every available vaccine that bureaucrats decide to put on the schedule. Some like you are comfortable walking down this road. Others see it as a risky path.

If I thought x vaccine was the best thing for little Johnny then I would already have had little Johnny vaccinated for x. The law is not always moral. It can be twisted and manipulated.
Since a lot of people who do not vaccinate understand herd immunity quite well and are deliberately taking advantage of it in order to allow their children to escape the teeny, teeny, teeny risks associated with vaccination, yes they would feel threatened.

The vaccines on the schedule are the ones that cover the diseases that are most likely to affect school age children. If new vaccines come out for illnesses that can kill and maim kids, they will be put on the list.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Juram View Post


All anyone can do is shake their head and laugh at this point.
Yep!
 
Old 04-26-2015, 08:50 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,568 posts, read 26,190,928 times
Reputation: 26618
Quote:
Originally Posted by dysgenic View Post
If it's 'just a document', why is it taught in school? Answer- it's taught in school because the whole country is based upon that document.
Quote:
I think I'm on safe ground when I say that The Declaration of Independence is an important document. I don't need to confirm that with any of your recommended authority figures.
No, it is taught because it is an important document in its own right. It said to Britain that we were no longer subjects of King George III. Think of it as a letter of resignation.

It does not establish any laws, and the Constitution is not "based" on it.

Quote:
All of your examples are extremely poor as none of them involve violence, imposition, or coercion against the students.
Quote:
The point does not require the Declaration of Independence, or The Constitution, or any other document or law to prove its veracity. Violence and coercion are wrong.
Nope, the examples are just fine. School vaccine mandates do not involve violence, imposition, or coercion, either.

Quote:
This analogy is terrible. You are taking the victim and trying to make him the perpetrator
You are welcome to take your case to the courts. Good luck with that, since precedent is strongly against you.

Quote:
The only way this is true is if vaccines aren't effective in the first place.
Repeating this over and over does not make it true. Might want to give it up.


Quote:
I can assure you that I've spent ample time studying the facts. I believe that pretty much anyone that looks into this matter in enough depth will inevitably come to the same conclusion that I have.
By the way I wouldn't believe anything that the CDC says. They are an extremely unreliable source based upon my research.
If you are not willing to divulge your sources, all you are left with is your opinion, which does not hold water since it seems to be based on a very poor understanding of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

If you can explain to me the difference between the Fab and Fc regions of an antibody, I will believe you have studied some real facts. If not, I can be pretty sure you do not know what the facts are and you base your opinion on anti-vax woo from the likes of Mercola.

The experts at the CDC would have no problem telling me about antibodies and how they work. I will believe them, not you.

Quote:
Oh, please. There is no difference between you saying that vaccines don't cause autism and me saying they do.
There's a world of difference, since you have no facts to support your opinion.
 
Old 04-26-2015, 09:19 PM
 
8,546 posts, read 5,279,681 times
Reputation: 9115
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Since a lot of people who do not vaccinate understand herd immunity quite well and are deliberately taking advantage of it in order to allow their children to escape the teeny, teeny, teeny risks associated with vaccination, yes they would feel threatened.

The vaccines on the schedule are the ones that cover the diseases that are most likely to affect school age children. If new vaccines come out for illnesses that can kill and maim kids, they will be put on the list.
You read way too many pro vaccine propaganda blogs.
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