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Going back to what started this thread in the first place, in the end, all the jawing from the anti-vaxxer folks is going to be for naught. The law in California, will stand, even if enough signatures are acquired to force a referendum, the law has over 70% approval in the state. It will be upheld.
Going forward, more State Legislatures are now emboldened to simply ignore the anti-vax lobby and proceed to protect the majority of their constituents. You'll see an outcry for laws just like the one in California the next time we see another outbreak of measles or other vaccine-preventable diseases and its not an "if", but a "when" considering that that in some area's, you have less than a 50% overall vaccination rate.
When the world doesn't end in California, when kids are regularly being vaccinated to go to school and they don't start sprouting third and fourth arms, it will make laws like it more palatable in many other places. We've already seen that West Virginia and Mississippi who have had tough vaccination programs in place for a long time, haven't suffered any fallout from it.
In California people will gripe and moan and stomp their feet and over time, the vast majority of them other than the truly hardcore people, will get over it, move on and find a new cause celebre.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juram
They turned one doctor into the Incredible Hulk apparently.
Yes, and realistically speaking all of us who vaccinate don't really want your 5 arm sprouting exaggeration of people who don't want this vaccine or that one. I truly hope you don't take yourself seriously because it's really difficult for me to think anything you say touches even slightly on the reality of what those who oppose mandates are concerned with. I don't even know why you bother. You sound ridiculous and a bit far from reality. It seems as though all your information is done through hyper internet sites and not talking to anyone in California who is actually concerned about mandates. Trust me, they know the world isn't ending, but they are going to stay in court on this for a long time. And a move to impeach Dr. Pan is already underway.
For some it is the sheer volume is such a short time... never before have newborns to toddlers been exposed to so much so soon.
A school nurse may or not be able to give a child aspirin... yet, we are suppose to blindly accept anything the government wants to inject into our bodies?
I'm not anti vaccination... I do work with many physicians in a hospital setting and it is interesting how many of them will delay and space out vaccinations for their own children or insist on a particular one and avoid others intended for the same purpose.
There is such a thing as Informed Consent...
I vaccine as well, but spaced it out and most of the controversy in CA is about this exactly. Some people want to space them out, and some want to skip hpv or the yearly flu vaccine. It's not like they all think people will start sprouting nuclear eyebrows. It's a pretty normal concern for a lot of parents I talk to when I'm at home in Laguna.
You posted it twice and missed the key words both times: a person who is immune to a disease.
A small number of vaccine recipients do not develop immunity.
A "small number" of people, the minority, should not dictate rules that everyone must follow. Nothing is 100% in life we agree. And just like everyone who doesn't get the measles vaccine will get the measles. Its a 2 way street. Majority rules in our society.
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Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
I have no idea what you are trying to say here. What "group is very, very small"? If you mean people truly harmed by vaccines, yes, that group is very small.
Vaccine mandates are not there for the protection of the majority who are immune by virtue of being vaccinated. They are there to protect the minority who are not protected by the vaccine, who are not old enough to be vaccinated, who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons, or who have compromised immune systems, like the lady who died a few weeks ago.
People who can't take vaccine shots or aren't immune even after taking a vaccine is who I was referring too as a very small group.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
All of that is entirely true. It has nothing to do with vaccines, though. Other health problems in the country need to be dealt with, but that does not mean we should ignore dropping vaccination rates.
I was simply responding to the comment you made in your own post that "Most of the decisions people make affect only themselves." And it has much to do with vaccines directly because indeed, MOST of the decisions people make with vaccines(to vaccinate or not) only affect themselves. Majority.MOST. That is the take away point. You come from a minority rules perspective on this vaccine law and perhaps other aspects of life. I say society/laws should function in a MAJORITY rules perspective, what benefits the MAJORITY. And for many of us, free choice is a very large benefit, especially when the majority is served.
We differ big time here and we have both made our views very clear.
That has nothing to do with vaccination. It has to do with doctors realizing that some things cannot be fixed by medicine. Vaccine preventable diseases are something that can be fixed.
Yes, Stanford, thank you!
It has to do with "good for you, but not for me" that many are fond of doing these days and ties in with Ultrarunner's experience with seeing Dr.'s making their own picky choices.
Those in CA with this law have to listen to a Dr.'s advice, even if they don't feel comfortable/agree with it if they want to get into public schools. I think the choice of saying no should be another option and still be able to attend public schools given many don't feel everyone in the med field has their best interest in mind, as illustrated in that Standford study.
A wink is as good as a nod.....
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Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
Public health trumps your "freedom of choice".
When something you believe in/are against is forced upon you via law with strings attached to it that only benefits a small minority at the expense of taking away majority choice, get back to me on that and let me know if you feel the same.
I vaccine as well, but spaced it out and most of the controversy in CA is about this exactly. Some people want to space them out, and some want to skip hpv or the yearly flu vaccine. It's not like they all think people will start sprouting nuclear eyebrows. It's a pretty normal concern for a lot of parents I talk to when I'm at home in Laguna.
There is absolutely no reason to "space out" vaccines for a healthy child. Even "Dr. Bob" Sears of alternative schedule fame admits that.
Even if someone is absolutely convinced the shots need to be given over a longer interval, just get them all in before time to start school.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64
A "small number" of people, the minority, should not dictate rules that everyone must follow. Nothing is 100% in life we agree. And just like everyone who doesn't get the measles vaccine will get the measles. Its a 2 way street. Majority rules in our society.
But it is the majority who want all healthy children to be vaccinated.
We know that the failure rate for vaccines is small, but we do not know, on an individual level, who the people are for whom the vaccine did not work. One vaccine might not work for a particular person, or more than one, while another might fail for a different person, or more than one. Any of us might be the person for whom one of the vaccines did not work, and, short of getting titers done (expensive) most do not know a vaccine failed until they catch the disease.
Quote:
I was simply responding to the comment you made in your own post that "Most of the decisions people make affect only themselves." And it has much to do with vaccines directly because indeed,MOST of the decisions people make with vaccines(to vaccinate or not) only affect themselves. Majority MOST.That is the take away point. You come from a minority rules perspective on this vaccine law and perhaps other aspects of life. I say society/laws should function in a MAJORITY rules perspective, what benefits the MAJORITY. And for many of us, free choice is a very large benefit, especially when the majority is served.
It seems we do not disagree at all, since it is the majority who want every person who is medically able to do so to be vaccinated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64
When something you believe in/are against is forced upon you via law with strings attached to it that only benefits a small minority at the expense of taking away majority choice, get back to me on that and let me know if you feel the same.
Mandates benefit us all. Those in the vaccinated majority do not know which of them are actually unprotected, as I said above.
Last edited by suzy_q2010; 07-15-2015 at 07:04 PM..
Not that it is really relevant... here are the specific areas with the most volume..
General Surgery
Gynecology
Neurosurgery
Ophthalmology (Eye)
Oral Surgery
Orthopaedics
Otorhinolaryngology (Ear, Nose and Throat)
Pain Management
Plastic Surgery
Podiatry
Urology
The Hospital Chief of Anesthesia is highly respected and was very selective for his own children... noticed that I DID NOT say he was anti vaccinations...
Pharmaceutical companies are in business to be profitable... I have a right to be informed and many parents expressing concerns are just that...
He might be a well respected anesthesiologist, but that doesn't mean he knows squat about immunizations. Talk to a pediatrician, ob, family practitioner, internal med, infectious disease doc if you want info about IZs. I do see gyn on there, but the rest have nothing to do with vaccines.
When something you believe in/are against is forced upon you via law with strings attached to it that only benefits a small minority at the expense of taking away majority choice, get back to me on that and let me know if you feel the same.
It's fear induced and works well. Look at the Japanese camps after the war. They were for everyone's safety. Wink It's not the first time fear mongering accomplished a set of ridiculous laws. Won't be the last. That's why it's important for those who see clearly to speak out and go to the courts. Sometimes you have to magnify the obvious. Fear is one thing that can be used over and over again to grab a majority for certain objectives. History proves this.
I vaccine as well, but spaced it out and most of the controversy in CA is about this exactly. Some people want to space them out, and some want to skip hpv or the yearly flu vaccine. It's not like they all think people will start sprouting nuclear eyebrows. It's a pretty normal concern for a lot of parents I talk to when I'm at home in Laguna.
Exactly...
and it is not a fallacy that the government has granted immunity or assumed responsibility for much of the vaccination program or that millions have been paid out...
It's only a infinitesimal stat as some might point out... that is as long as it is not your child.
Could very well be my circle of medical professionals in my little corner of the Bay Area is not representative of the larger medical community...
To those who are quick to dismiss... I suppose next they will say No Medical Doctor has ever taken a stand against the program as it now exists.
Bless you if it gives you comfort to know your child has had every vaccine possible... never know when you might take an unplanned trip to the Congo... so make sure you have your child covered for those...
A "small number" of people, the minority, should not dictate rules that everyone must follow. Nothing is 100% in life we agree. And just like everyone who doesn't get the measles vaccine will get the measles. Its a 2 way street. Majority rules in our society.
Majority rules is no different than Mob Rules...
The United States is a Representative Democracy founded by it's Constitution... if this was not the case... how could a single judge or panel of judges overturn the will of the people???
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It's not the first time fear mongering accomplished a set of ridiculous laws. Won't be the last. That's why it's important for those who see clearly to speak out and go to the courts. Sometimes you have to magnify the obvious. Fear is one thing that can be used over and over again to grab a majority for certain objectives. History proves this.
