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Old 07-16-2015, 03:24 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
23,452 posts, read 28,322,096 times
Reputation: 29049

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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
I am the same as you, I don't oppose vaccines, I oppose mandates of vaccines and threats of job loss or public and private schooling if you don't comply. They can try to say we are anti vax ignorant fools all they want but that doesn't make it true.
If you do not oppose vaccines, why do you continue to bad mouth them?

Quote:
Plenty of people who voluntarily vaccinate are against mandates on a government schedule like we live in a policed state. It's just pitting one side against another, and I'm sick to death of being asked which side I'm on, provax or antivax. Most of us are on neither, we are on the anti mandate side. Education does the job, and transparency would be a great improvement.
Education did not do the job. Vaccination rates are too low in some areas, and we have seen large outbreaks of measles in the last few years. If education was working, that would not happen. By discouraging people from vaccinating, you are part of the problem.

Quote:
People find it fishy that their are 30,000 or more cases reported to VAERS each year but no expert scientist can find a link to even one awarded case of injury. We will pay you but this does not mean we think the vaccine is responsible. Come on, really?
It seems you think that repeating this over and over will magically make it true.

1. Not all VAERS reports represent injuries due to vaccines. Only a small percentage are. They are investigated and decisions about causality are made. The goal is to identify patterns of similar problems that suggest the problem is caused by the vaccine. If there are 30,000 reports of different problems, none of those may be due to the vaccine. On the other hand, ten reports of the same problem may be significant. We now know vaccines do not cause autism. Anyone reporting autism to VAERS is doing so because of the manufactured controversy, and other research has excluded vaccines as a cause of autism. No decisions about awards are made by VAERS investigators. Claims for awards are not processed through VAERS.

2. Claims for compensation for injuries are made to the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. That is a no fault system. Causation is assumed for specific complications known to be caused by vaccines when they happen within a time frame that the vaccine is known to cause them.

VAERS and the compensation program are totally separate. The fact that you do not know that demonstrates ignorance that invalidates anything you say about either of them.

"... their[sic] are 30,000 or more cases reported to VAERS each year but no expert scientist can find a link to even one awarded case of injury" is a lie, and I can only conclude you are bent on trying to mislead people. That places you squarely in the anti-vax camp.

Quote:
Some of us think, wow, clever, that way you don't have to list any new side effects. Great for business, not so great for consumers. And now, not so great for those victims of mandates.
Serious adverse effects of vaccines are rare. "Side effects" are not. "Side effects" are things like a sore arm or mild fever.

New vaccines are added to the list for compensation at the compensation program.

Intussuception has been added to the table as a compensable complication of rotavirus vaccine:

https://www.federalregister.gov/arti...-for-rotavirus

Anyone who decides to vaccinate due to mandates has to be willing to accept the (tiny) risks of vaccinating.

Quote:
Taking the consumer aspect out of capitalism relating to drug companies is a really underhanded way of tilting the tables. There is no balance there, and that raises questions that can't be answered with "it's just the best thing to do for disease control." This is my objection any way. I find it odd, and want more answers.
This statement makes no sense at all. Are you saying consumers should vote on whether we have vaccines or not?

Vaccines work. Too many people have bought the pseudoscience about them and are not vaccinating. Education efforts are fruitless because moms with music degrees think they know more about vaccines than pediatricians. That's why we now have a new law in California that says the only exemptions from vaccination to attend school will be for valid medical reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner View Post
It is not imaginary that there has been a piling on of vaccines... even in recent history.

From 5 in 1995

Notice to Readers Recommended Childhood Immunization Schedule -- United States, January 1995

to 14 in 2014

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedule...2014-child.pdf

I guess time will tell and short of time... there is no way of know until after the fact.
You miscounted. there were nine vaccines in 1995. DPT and MMR are six vaccines, not two.

Why is protection against more diseases bad? I really have a hard time figuring that one out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
The flu shots are yearly so more negative accidents happen. Even if the vaccines were perfect, people who handle them are not. The more we pump out the more issues will arise. Contaminated, stored wrong, given wrong, etc.

There are many that aren't public, on a smaller scale. Storage problems occur more than we think I've heard. They have tried giving new warnings, hopefully it works.
Despite all that, vaccines managed to eradicate smallpox and we are near eradication of polio.

Millions of doses of vaccines are given that are not contaminated and not stored improperly.

Except in areas where people are not using vaccines, we are not having large outbreaks of vaccine preventable diseases.

Sounds like somebody is doing something right to me.

By the way, flu vaccine is hard because it has to be made under a very short time deadline. The anti-vax contingent really likes to pick on flu vaccine because it is less effective than some of the others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
My guess would be these diseases. There is Significant Variation in the Share of the Uninsured that is Below the Medicaid Expansion Limit Across States | The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation will definitely be more to come. Hopefully the trials for them are longer than the one for Viox. Given Merck's rep for rushing trials.
The link does not work.

Why is the ability to prevent more diseases bad?

 
Old 07-16-2015, 04:51 AM
 
26,366 posts, read 24,547,211 times
Reputation: 16045
Quote:
leebeemi; That question assumes the child had a shot, right? I mean, that example is, "The child received a vaccine and died as a result of that vaccine," if I'm reading correctly. And that's a horrible scenario, of course. I am deeply saddened by any situation that leads to the death of a child--anyone would be. Pro- and anti-vaxxers alike.
Yes, that is exactly what I meant

Quote:
So the question becomes: Is it worth the risk to vaccinate? If I'm evaluating based on factual evidence, the answer is yes. Because any numbers will indicated the RISK of a fatal or significantly severe reaction to the vaccine is much lower than the risk of a fatal or significantly severe reaction to the disease.
Its not worth the risk to the person who looses their child b/c of a vaccine, no, absolutely not. And I believe any parent who had a child die from a vaccine would change their tune awfully fast. Even you.



Quote:
Now, if I had a child who had a severe reaction, and then had another child, would I have reason to be more cautious? More afraid? I'd say that's reasonable. But I'd have to work with my doctor on it. I had a near-fatal reaction to a pertussis vaccination as a child, but my parents opted to have me get my remaining vaccinations and have my sister fully vaccinated. Just as I had my children vaccinated, and have now received my full pertussis vaccination. None of those decisions was made lightly. But, even given the FACT that I had a severe reaction, it was a better risk to move forward with vaccinations in each case. There was information available, there were resources to consult. We didn't just flip a coin.
I don't believe there is a right or wrong on this subject....I had all the vaccines and was fine....however, not everyone feels this way, due to someone they know, or a family member who had a reaction, or worse, died or ended up with some kind of disabeling disease b/c of the vaccine.

Quote:
It's easy to let hyperbole and misinformation make us scared. It's easy to trust the easy way out--and it is the easy way out to opt out of vaccinations. No fuss, no muss. Until you infect someone who DIDN'T make that same choice. None of us lives in a vacuum. And, in the state of CA, if you want to send your children to public schools, unless there is a medical reason for exemption, they will need to be vaccinated. If you have fears, talk to your doctor about whether they are reasonable. But be prepared to find out that they may not be.
Yes, it is easy, but this isn't hyperbole, or misinformation....and if you believe that, you are sorely misinformed...and I suggest then, you sit down and speak with a parent who lost their child due to a vaccine and argue your points so confidently....

People, we have to stop and think and consider each other, not everyone is the same, not everyone thinks and feels the same, especially due to experience.

I've seen what vaccines do to dogs, especially little dogs...I've also seen the good they do.....

So what I'm saying and you all, should be very very careful, b/c you cannot dictate to others how to think and feel....

but, it should be up to the parent to decide....and not anyone else.

and that is my stance...I am not against it, in the least, but I am against telling others how to live their lives...

I had Measles as a kid, also had mumps and chicken pox...they were all childhood diseases....a very few died...I don't know anyone in my school or town that died...but yes, we were kept home....gosh in those days, doctors came to the house...lol...and I do remember the mumps and how sick I was, the others, no biggy....except I scratched the chicken pox on my face and it left a scar...lol

and whoever said side effects are rare that isn't true....I do remember many kids getting side effects and almost dying from Penacillian. So, I wouldn't say they are rare, (be very careful of your choice of words, everyone) otherwise, every commercial wouldn't be listing all the side effects on TV, to cover their butts) Side effects do happen to people....everyone is different.

I can't use certain soaps....or eat seafood....while others can...some kids are allergic to peanut butter.

I've been immune deficient ever since I was a kid...always sick, with something...so, I could have very easily had a reaction to some of the vaccines...drugs that I was given....as I do today.

Its easy to conclude something, when it doesn't affect you, or a loved one...but when it does, then, it becomes a whole different story, please remember that folks.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 06:44 AM
 
6,409 posts, read 3,594,818 times
Reputation: 7353
My daughter was in the Military and got every vaccination under the sun before she went to boot camp. She spent the entire time in the Infirmary. Severe pains in her stomach, vomiting, and diarrhea. So bad that she dehydrated and had to be put on IV. Doctors couldn't find anything wrong with her. Probably an allergy they said.

She was given medical leave to go home and be tested. It was found that she is severely allergic to red meat. The Military gave her a medical discharge, which she did not want. They told her that they would not keep her with that allergy.

So how is all this relative to vaccines? Quite a number of vaccines contain bovine products. If I even put a few teaspoons of beef broth in cooking, it has her on the floor in pain and in the bathroom for hours. I highly doubt she even knows that some vaccines contain red meat ingredients. Do most people? We have heard that Flu shots contain eggs, and people with egg allergies should not take them. Do people with red meat allergies know that certain vaccines contain bovine products? Her doctor said that a milk allergy can sometimes also include a red meat allergy. How many babies and children have cow's milk allergies?

These animal ingredients in vaccines also brings up another objection. How about Vegans? They do not want to eat animal products, which includes eggs. Forcing them to be injected with animal products which be the like forcing them to eat animals. Philosophical Objection to ingredients in vaccines. So you would take away this choice from them also?

I will post the link again, if anyone wants, of the CDC's list of ingredients in all vaccines, which includes bovine, calf, monkey, eggs, and also embryo and fetal tissue (Religious Objection). One size does NOT fit all. People need to research and make their own choices based on what is best for them.

Last edited by Jo48; 07-16-2015 at 07:01 AM..
 
Old 07-16-2015, 06:46 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 26 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,020 posts, read 102,689,903 times
Reputation: 33083
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
And most of those affected were adults.
The median age was 22. Assuming one is an adult at 18, you are correct. However, half were under 22.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 06:50 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 26 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,020 posts, read 102,689,903 times
Reputation: 33083
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I'm actually upset that I cannot come in contact with these childhood diseases. I need the booster. If I can't, as a person who experienced chicken pox, come in contact with a child with chicken pox then I am more likely to have shingles.

Chicken pox vaccine associated with shingles epidemic

I've been exposed to all of these diseases yet have I been symptomatic... NO. Why? They are so contagious yet I have not been infected. Is it the red wine I drink every once in a while or is it the nutritional diet I adhere to? Why is it that I can be exposed as an unvaccinated person yet not get the disease?
As with smallpox, you don't get it.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 07:16 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 26 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,020 posts, read 102,689,903 times
Reputation: 33083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juram View Post
So Julie who is 16 is going to approach her boyfriend Joe, also 16 and ask him to get presceened for HPV before they have sex?


Because that sound exactly like the sort of thing two hormone-overloaded teenagers will do in the heat of the moment.
Actually, the test is not recommended for males. No way to test them.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 07:22 AM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,398 posts, read 9,900,280 times
Reputation: 7441
Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
Yes, that is exactly what I meant



Its not worth the risk to the person who looses their child b/c of a vaccine, no, absolutely not. And I believe any parent who had a child die from a vaccine would change their tune awfully fast. Even you.





I don't believe there is a right or wrong on this subject....I had all the vaccines and was fine....however, not everyone feels this way, due to someone they know, or a family member who had a reaction, or worse, died or ended up with some kind of disabeling disease b/c of the vaccine.



Yes, it is easy, but this isn't hyperbole, or misinformation....and if you believe that, you are sorely misinformed...and I suggest then, you sit down and speak with a parent who lost their child due to a vaccine and argue your points so confidently....

People, we have to stop and think and consider each other, not everyone is the same, not everyone thinks and feels the same, especially due to experience.

I've seen what vaccines do to dogs, especially little dogs...I've also seen the good they do.....

So what I'm saying and you all, should be very very careful, b/c you cannot dictate to others how to think and feel....

but, it should be up to the parent to decide....and not anyone else.

and that is my stance...I am not against it, in the least, but I am against telling others how to live their lives...

I had Measles as a kid, also had mumps and chicken pox...they were all childhood diseases....a very few died...I don't know anyone in my school or town that died...but yes, we were kept home....gosh in those days, doctors came to the house...lol...and I do remember the mumps and how sick I was, the others, no biggy....except I scratched the chicken pox on my face and it left a scar...lol

and whoever said side effects are rare that isn't true....I do remember many kids getting side effects and almost dying from Penacillian. So, I wouldn't say they are rare, (be very careful of your choice of words, everyone) otherwise, every commercial wouldn't be listing all the side effects on TV, to cover their butts) Side effects do happen to people....everyone is different.

I can't use certain soaps....or eat seafood....while others can...some kids are allergic to peanut butter.

I've been immune deficient ever since I was a kid...always sick, with something...so, I could have very easily had a reaction to some of the vaccines...drugs that I was given....as I do today.

Its easy to conclude something, when it doesn't affect you, or a loved one...but when it does, then, it becomes a whole different story, please remember that folks.
I expect to see a lot more cases like this in the future.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1312454

5-year-old Frankie Warner has been barred from P.S. 36 for not receiving a chicken pox vaccination. Her parents say receiving the vaccine could prove deadly to her infant sister who suffers from a rare auto-immune disorder.

A lot of children and parents will feel like outcast. But it will be worth it since they are pitted against their children best interest. Isolating a certain population is a bad idea, unethical and inexcusable to me. The real fact is that we aren't comparing deaths from vaccines to death from the Measles historically. The truth is people don't die from the Measles in great numbers here today. So the risks don't equate. When or if that changes then they will be equal. Today more people report injury and death related to vaccination then they do the Measles in our country. To prevent "what if" scenarios with the threat of leaving a certain part of our population without a good education is in my view unnecessary and absurd.


If we get to compare today's statistics to historical incident then I'll start using historical data like the Cutter Laboratories disaster. We can all fear a repeat today. Same perspective.

The Cutter incident was one of the worst pharmaceutical disasters in U.S. history, and exposed several thousand children to live polio virus on vaccination.[5] The NIH Laboratory of Biologics Control, which had certified the Cutter polio vaccine, had received advance warnings of problems: in 1954, staff member Dr. Bernice Eddy had reported to her superiors that some inoculated monkeys had become paralyzed (pictures were sent as well). William Sebrell, the director of NIH wouldn't hear of such a thing.[3]

The mistake produced 120,000 doses of polio vaccine that contained live polio virus. Of children who received the vaccine, 40,000 developed abortive poliomyelitis (a form of the disease that does not involve the central nervous system), 56 developed paralytic poliomyelitis—and of these, five children died from polio.[6] The exposures led to an epidemic of polio in the families and communities of the affected children, resulting in a further 113 people paralyzed and 5 deaths.[5] The director of the microbiology institute lost his job, as did the equivalent of the assistant secretary for health. Oveta Culp Hobby stepped down. Dr Sebrell, the director of the NIH, resigned.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutter_Laboratories

Last edited by PoppySead; 07-16-2015 at 07:39 AM..
 
Old 07-16-2015, 07:31 AM
 
26,366 posts, read 24,547,211 times
Reputation: 16045
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
My daughter was in the Military and got every vaccination under the sun before she went to boot camp. She spent the entire time in the Infirmary. Severe pains in her stomach, vomiting, and diarrhea. So bad that she dehydrated and had to be put on IV. Doctors couldn't find anything wrong with her. Probably an allergy they said.

She was given medical leave to go home and be tested. It was found that she is severely allergic to red meat. The Military gave her a medical discharge, which she did not want. They told her that they would not keep her with that allergy.

So how is all this relative to vaccines? Quite a number of vaccines contain bovine products. If I even put a few teaspoons of beef broth in cooking, it has her on the floor in pain and in the bathroom for hours. I highly doubt she even knows that some vaccines contain red meat ingredients. Do most people? We have heard that Flu shots contain eggs, and people with egg allergies should not take them. Do people with red meat allergies know that certain vaccines contain bovine products? Her doctor said that a milk allergy can sometimes also include a red meat allergy. How many babies and children have cow's milk allergies?

These animal ingredients in vaccines also brings up another objection. How about Vegans? They do not want to eat animal products, which includes eggs. Forcing them to be injected with animal products which be the like forcing them to eat animals. Philosophical Objection to ingredients in vaccines. So you would take away this choice from them also?

I will post the link again, if anyone wants, of the CDC's list of ingredients in all vaccines, which includes bovine, calf, monkey, eggs, and also embryo and fetal tissue (Religious Objection). One size does NOT fit all. People need to research and make their own choices based on what is best for them.
I'm sorry your daughter experienced this...my son was also in the military, and received probably the same vaccines and more, b/c he went over to Afghanistan....so even more vaccines were necessary...and this proves my point...he did ok with them...but his daughter is a chronic diabetic...and sometimes I can't help but wonder....? Yanno....? I'm not saying those vaccines, hurt her, but I'm also not saying they didn't. She has allergies terrible and ashma...and eye problems, and she is only 13.

My son or his wife did any drugs....nor did they drink, but whose to say? No one can prove it not to be true or to be true....

What I'm saying is, if you want your kids vaccinated fine...do it, but if you don't thats ok to...

This world is crazy, the media instills fear....when it shouldn't even be an issue.
People think, it's ok to tell others how they should think and feel and it's not ok.....period.

I don't approve of being gay, nor approve of abortion, but it's none of my business to tell people who to live their lives....that is between them and their God, and if you outlaw abortions, you will have women going back to coat hanger abortions, believe me, they will get it anyway they can. And that is my point with vaccines...unless their is an outbreak, then it is necessary to take all precautions.

OK, here is an example, they bring patients over to this country, from Africa with ebola? But, insist now that you must have vaccinations for chicken pox, etc????? Does that make any sense???

Like I said, I had all those childhood diseases....some it may kill, but a very small amount of child now a days die from Chicken pox....so you can look at both sides of this, and say, if the kid had the vaccine, he'd still be alive....

This is life....and it is never 100% full proof no matter how humans would like it to be...life is hard, sometimes, we sometimes are made to deal with horrible situations, but nothing we do is going to change thing and make it 100% safe.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 07:52 AM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,398 posts, read 9,900,280 times
Reputation: 7441
Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
I'm sorry your daughter experienced this...my son was also in the military, and received probably the same vaccines and more, b/c he went over to Afghanistan....so even more vaccines were necessary...and this proves my point...he did ok with them...but his daughter is a chronic diabetic...and sometimes I can't help but wonder....? Yanno....? I'm not saying those vaccines, hurt her, but I'm also not saying they didn't. She has allergies terrible and ashma...and eye problems, and she is only 13.

My son or his wife did any drugs....nor did they drink, but whose to say? No one can prove it not to be true or to be true....

What I'm saying is, if you want your kids vaccinated fine...do it, but if you don't thats ok to...

This world is crazy, the media instills fear....when it shouldn't even be an issue.
People think, it's ok to tell others how they should think and feel and it's not ok.....period.

I don't approve of being gay, nor approve of abortion, but it's none of my business to tell people who to live their lives....that is between them and their God, and if you outlaw abortions, you will have women going back to coat hanger abortions, believe me, they will get it anyway they can. And that is my point with vaccines...unless their is an outbreak, then it is necessary to take all precautions.

OK, here is an example, they bring patients over to this country, from Africa with ebola? But, insist now that you must have vaccinations for chicken pox, etc????? Does that make any sense???

Like I said, I had all those childhood diseases....some it may kill, but a very small amount of child now a days die from Chicken pox....so you can look at both sides of this, and say, if the kid had the vaccine, he'd still be alive....

This is life....and it is never 100% full proof no matter how humans would like it to be...life is hard, sometimes, we sometimes are made to deal with horrible situations, but nothing we do is going to change thing and make it 100% safe.
I know it's difficult to trust pharma. Last month the doctor would strongly recommend my husband take Advil for his arthritis, yet this month it's a no because they've found out after numerous death and injury it isn't safe to take Advil for chronic pain relief. Science is as perfect as humans are and that's the only fact we can rely on. That simply leaves our own discretion. Which is why threatening it is wrong.
http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/f...k-201507138138
 
Old 07-16-2015, 07:55 AM
 
26,366 posts, read 24,547,211 times
Reputation: 16045
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
I know it's difficult to trust pharma. Last month the doctor would strongly recommend my husband take Advil for his arthritis, yet this month it's a no because they've found out after numerous death and injury it isn't safe to take Advil for chronic pain relief. Science is as perfect as humans are and that's the only fact we can rely on. That simply leaves our own discretion. Which is why threatening it is wrong.
FDA strengthens warning that NSAIDs increase heart attack and stroke risk - Harvard Health Blog - Harvard Health Publications
Geeze, for the past, oh, say 3 years I've been eating Advil for pain?

many years ago, when I was young, and my son was a toddler, I would tell friends, and family that I tried very hard not to take any pain meds, or meds of any kind....reason being, any med is a drug/chemical....which could have an adverse effect on the body, so I intended to wait as long as I could, until a later age, when there is no alternative.

you have to weigh it all and every person is different...but to rely on meds at an early age, is bad....and my own personal opinion, taking drugs for anxiety, and depression, in some cases is logical, but in others its bad, b/c you never learn to deal with the bad.

Like I said, life isn't easy...and most of the time its very hard...but, the bad times happen for a reason....it makes us stronger, and helps us realize the happiness when we are gifted with such....but taking drugs isn't a good thing to rely on....

thank you for the link
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