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Old 07-16-2015, 09:18 AM
 
2,937 posts, read 1,785,716 times
Reputation: 6659

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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
An Atheist believes the president looses credibility because he blesses the United States in name of a God in the sky or heavens that blesses and protects us all from an evil angel named Satan who is responsible for bad events.
It's ironic that you believe you have the skills and ethics to judge what opinions you find valid or not. I think it's relative, and quite frankly a belief you're simple not accustomed to. It's validity doesn't depend on how many times you've heard it, or how strange it sounds to you that someone would believe this. Everyone has the right to their belief, or opinions and what they hold as truth for themselves regardless.

There are people in very respected positions that believe far more invalidated ideals than this one. They hold most high office positions in this country. I doubt you can provide any proof to confirm their beliefs.

They still expect respect and I find it rude to disrespect ones opinion just because you don't think the argument fits your understanding when you most certainly apply that understanding and respect to similar invalid beliefs.
Thank you for disrespecting my opinion with your opinion.

 
Old 07-16-2015, 09:18 AM
 
Location: Marquette, Mich
1,213 posts, read 466,960 times
Reputation: 2580
I am trying to stay caught up, but my head is spinning. I want to clarify a couple of things without responding to specific posters because I think people sometimes only respond to the fact that there's a counterpoint, instead of actually considering the point someone else is trying to make.

VAERS data is not a reliable source for vaccine injury stats. The reason isn't necessarily making FALSE claims, but making claims they sincerely believe to be true but simply are not. Since not all reports to VAERS are from medical professionals, the claims made are not necessarily valid. A parent who BELIEVES a report to be valid is not necessarily right. AND, many incidents are not made--but those aren't all serious incidents. For example, I have never submitted a report based on a mild fever, soreness at the injection site, swelling, headache, etc. Those may or may not be things due to a vaccination, or they could be coincidental. It's like the flu--I may get the flu shortly after getting a shot, but it's likely because I was exposed to it PRIOR to getting the shot.

I am not for vaccine mandates just to protect my child. It's not a child=child situation. The problem is that rising rates in unvaccinated children means the potential for spreading preventable, dangerous illness rises. Risk goes up. So what seems a simple decision that only affects ONE child is, in fact, impacting far more. It's not my choice trumping your choice. It is that your choice has far-reaching implications.

I really wish each and every person stating how common and normal and insignificant these illnesses would just stop. They are not like that for everyone. Each one has potentially serious impact. You cannot equate YOUR experience to the entire population. Just as I understand not everyone will get as sick as I did with chickenpox, it is YOUR responsibility to understand that some WILL get sicker than you did.

I like multi-quotes. Makes it easier for me to get caught up. Please keep on multi-quotin'!

If a person who is vaccinated travels to an area where illnesses they are vaccinated for are active, the odds that they get sick are low. Which is great. But more importantly, that means they will not continue to spread the illness to OTHER people. Posters keep saying there hasn't been an epidemic since "whenever." But the larger the unvaccinated population gets, the more likely a large outbreak (even an epidemic) becomes. This is not a "YOU" choice. This is an "ALL OF US" choice. I do not respect the choice to put others at risk based on faulty logic and bunk science.

If you are opposed to vaccines because you are afraid, I get it. But understand, you are being manipulated by people capitalizing on that fear. Over and over again, there are articles, studies, opinions, etc., being cited that have clearly been proven wrong. Proven. Wrong. But the response is along the lines of, "Pfft, I don't believe you, 'cause you're just part of the conspiracy to inject poison into the population." Nowhere has there been a, "Hmmm, that's an excellent point, and I hadn't considered that." Present me with something factual, from a reputable source, that I can verify and find support for, then I will consider your evidence. I have tried to keep up, but I have not yet seen one single thing that I can grab onto. You are not giving me anything that I can trust. Sorry, it is not good enough just to have published things. I can publish something. It doesn't make it a trustworthy publication.

Laymen do not have a firm grip on scientific process or terminology. Take the term "toxin." We throw it around like it means something. It really doesn't. Do you know what a toxin is? It's a poisonous substance produced within animal or plant cells. The kicker is, different substances are "toxic" at different concentrations/quantities/amounts. WATER can be toxic. Bee stings are toxins. Yes, for some, that's life-threatening. For most, not. Now, synthetic (man-made) substances can be "toxic," but are not technically toxins. See--it gets confusing. And we bandy things about because we read it here or there without having a firm understanding of what it means. So a "toxin" may or may not be life-threatening depending on how much of it there is. A great many substances may be "toxic" at one level, and not another.

Obtuse denial of fact isn't winning an argument. Obtuse denial of fact can be harmful. Especially when we're dealing with such high-stakes subjects. This CAN become life-or-death. I believe we have a responsibility to keep it from becoming that. Hence, vaccine mandates.

Whether you like the consequences or not, you do have a choice. It's not less of a choice because the consequence is significant. Even civil disobedience is a choice. You can oppose a law. You can refuse to comply with a law. But there will be consequences. That's the price of living in our society. It's how it's supposed to work. Sometimes it works how I want it to, sometimes it doesn't. I can oppose a law, I can refuse to comply with it. I will then pay the consequences.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 09:20 AM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
3,510 posts, read 2,951,827 times
Reputation: 6379
Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
Honestly, I'm not doubting you, and I believe your telling the truth, but what I'm saying is, the number of illegals way outnumber U.S. Citizens you know....that are not vaccinated....there are way more illegals that are not....

...



What you are arguing is unsupported by facts or logic. Mexico and other Central American nations have far lower rates of diseases such as measles and whooping cough. Mexico had 2 measles cases for the entire nation last year. Vaccination is mandatory and vaccination rates are higher than here in the U.S.


As much as you seem to want it to be true, immigrants from those countries are not responsible for a major spike in vaccine-preventable diseases.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 09:20 AM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,398 posts, read 9,897,422 times
Reputation: 7441
Quote:
Originally Posted by randomparent View Post
Wrong. She's talking about my former neighbors in Sonoma and Marin county. Lots of money and education but not a whole lot of common sense. Made my kids' pediatrician and the administration at their private school absolutely nuts!
So the more educated you are, the less likely you are to get vaccines? Why? Why would the poor or less educated by more easily vaccinated than those who have more education? What's your theory? Is it that those who are educated with more money are stupider than those who are poor or less educated or is it that they have more choices because that's what money buys? Like the ability to hire someone to home school your kids while you hold a job.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 09:24 AM
 
Location: BC, Arizona
1,170 posts, read 795,763 times
Reputation: 2377
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
https://www.aclu.org/your-right-equality-education

DO ALL KIDS HAVE THE RIGHT TO AN EQUAL EDUCATION?

Yes! All kids living in the United States have the right to a free public education. And the Constitution requires that all kids be given equal educational opportunity no matter what their race, ethnic background, religion, or sex, or whether they are rich or poor, citizen or non-citizen. Even if you are in this country illegally, you have the right to go to public school. The ACLU is fighting hard to make sure this right isn't taken away.

In addition to this constitutional guarantee of an equal education, many federal, state and local laws also protect students against discrimination in education based on sexual orientation or disability, including pregnancy and HIV status.

In fact, even though some kids may complain about having to go to school, the right to an equal educational opportunity is one of the most valuable rights you have. The Supreme Court said this in the landmark Brown v. Board of Education case when it struck down race segregation in the public schools.

If you believe you or someone you know is being discriminated against in school, speak up! Talk to a teacher, the principal, the head of a community organization or a lawyer so they can investigate the situation and help you take legal action if necessary.
Wrong. Legally wrong. Applying this to mandatory vaccinations is not applicable, the legality of these provisions has been clearly established. Next.

Last edited by tlvancouver; 07-16-2015 at 09:29 AM.. Reason: Last sentence
 
Old 07-16-2015, 09:24 AM
 
Location: The analog world
17,086 posts, read 9,882,128 times
Reputation: 22750
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juram View Post
I know you'd like to point the finger at illegals but is just isn't the case. In the vast majority of recent measles outbreaks, they were linked to unvaccinated Americans that went overseas and brought the disease back with them.
I was just going to mention that! All of my former neighbors traveled extensively. I think our small private school had a vax rate of under fifty percent, and I still can't wrap my head around the stupidity. Our pediatrician just threw up his hands, because there was no convincing the parents of their folly. And the school administrator was basically apoplectic about it, but what was she to do?
 
Old 07-16-2015, 09:25 AM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
3,510 posts, read 2,951,827 times
Reputation: 6379
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
So the more educated you are, the less likely you are to get vaccines? Why? Why would the poor or less educated by more easily vaccinated than those who have more education? What's your theory? Is it that those who are educated with more money are stupider than those who are poor or less educated or is it that they have more choices because that's what money buys? Like the ability to hire someone to home school your kids while you hold a job.


Actually that is only true in certain areas, not nationwide.

The average anti-vaxxer is probably not who you think she is - Quartz

Non-college educated: People with a high school diploma as their highest education level are 11% more likely to be against vaccines.

In lower income brackets
: People earning less than $25,000 a year are 50% more likely to distrust vaccines

Donít go to doctors: anti-vaxxers are 88% more likely not to have seen a doctor in the past year.

Liberal: 60% of anti-vaxxers describe their political leaning as liberal.

45 to 54 years old: People in this age group are 26% more likely than any other to oppose vaccinations.

Men: 56% anti-vaxxers are men and 44% are female (compared to an average population ratio of 49% men and 51% women).
 
Old 07-16-2015, 09:28 AM
 
Location: The analog world
17,086 posts, read 9,882,128 times
Reputation: 22750
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
So the more educated you are, the less likely you are to get vaccines? Why? Why would the poor or less educated by more easily vaccinated than those who have more education? What's your theory? Is it that those who are educated with more money are stupider than those who are poor or less educated or is it that they have more choices because that's what money buys? Like the ability to hire someone to home school your kids while you hold a job.
Hubris.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 09:31 AM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,398 posts, read 9,897,422 times
Reputation: 7441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juram View Post
Actually that is only true in certain areas, not nationwide.

The average anti-vaxxer is probably not who you think she is - Quartz

Non-college educated: People with a high school diploma as their highest education level are 11% more likely to be against vaccines.

In lower income brackets
: People earning less than $25,000 a year are 50% more likely to distrust vaccines

Donít go to doctors: anti-vaxxers are 88% more likely not to have seen a doctor in the past year.

Liberal: 60% of anti-vaxxers describe their political leaning as liberal.

45 to 54 years old: People in this age group are 26% more likely than any other to oppose vaccinations.

Men: 56% anti-vaxxers are men and 44% are female (compared to an average population ratio of 49% men and 51% women).
Or in simple terms, only relevant when you want it to be. I understand. So it will just depend.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 09:33 AM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,398 posts, read 9,897,422 times
Reputation: 7441
Quote:
Originally Posted by randomparent View Post
Hubris.
Do you lack of self confidence in your theory? I can't really reply to name calling so I'll leave it at that.
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