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Old 07-16-2015, 09:39 AM
 
Location: The analog world
17,086 posts, read 9,887,713 times
Reputation: 22750

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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
Do you lack of self confidence in your theory? I can't really reply to name calling so I'll leave it at that.
Huh? I'm talking specifically about my former neighbors and acquaintances who automatically dismissed the expertise of medical professionals because they "knew better." They were infuriating for many reasons, and they made my kids' pediatrician, a family friend, absolutely crazy because he could not talk any sense into them.

 
Old 07-16-2015, 09:41 AM
 
Location: BC, Arizona
1,170 posts, read 796,154 times
Reputation: 2377
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juram View Post
Actually that is only true in certain areas, not nationwide.

The average anti-vaxxer is probably not who you think she is - Quartz

Non-college educated: People with a high school diploma as their highest education level are 11% more likely to be against vaccines.

In lower income brackets: People earning less than $25,000 a year are 50% more likely to distrust vaccines

Donít go to doctors: anti-vaxxers are 88% more likely not to have seen a doctor in the past year.

Liberal: 60% of anti-vaxxers describe their political leaning as liberal.

45 to 54 years old: People in this age group are 26% more likely than any other to oppose vaccinations.

Men: 56% anti-vaxxers are men and 44% are female (compared to an average population ratio of 49% men and 51% women).
From that same study:
"A middle age, Midwestern man with high-school diploma, low income and a tendency not to think his vote matters much: this is the identity of the average American anti-vaxxer."
The California situation is an anomaly, based largely on the media covering the celebrity endorsement of the fraudulent studies that promoted false risks. Perhaps they think their celebrity status also provides immunity
"Taking a close look at school immunization records submitted to the state, the publication finds that ritzier schools favored by the entertainment-industry elite have the highest numbers of families opting to exempt their kids from shots. It seems those Hollywood stars who freely inject themselves with Botox are refusing to poke their children with life-saving vaccines that are vital to the overall health of a community."
Wealthy Hollywood parents arenít vaccinating their children - The Mommy Files

So no, you're not part of an intellectual elite for being anti-vax, unless you're a Hollywood celebrity you're more likely (statistically) to be high school educated.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 09:42 AM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
3,510 posts, read 2,953,119 times
Reputation: 6379
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
Or in simple terms, only relevant when you want it to be. I understand. So it will just depend.

I'm not sure the point that you are trying to make, that people educated but in completely unrelated fields know what they are talking about because they are well versed in their own field?


In college I had friends that completed degrees in business, philosophy and economics. Their science education pretty much ended with general biology and intro physics. Though they are all sharp individuals and now possess graduate degrees, I would not trust their slightly informed views on medicine and biology over those of someone who spent the better part of the decade in that field. I can read up on economics and philosophy but I'm certainly not going to try and lecture someone who has spent their whole lives studying in those fields.



You can be educated and have absolutely no understanding of the underlying science behind vaccination, you can be educated and completely lack in all common sense. In the Army we called it "book smarts" vs "street smarts." You can be incredibly "book smart" but still an idiot when it comes to how you handle your life decisions.


In the end, I defer to the doctors and scientists worldwide and the volumes of data which indicate that vaccination is incredibly effective. I might not be the sharpest tool in the shed but I was blessed with the ability to use reason and common sense when approaching things.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 09:43 AM
 
Location: BC, Arizona
1,170 posts, read 796,154 times
Reputation: 2377
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
Do you lack of self confidence in your theory? I can't really reply to name calling so I'll leave it at that.
Do you even know what hubris means? Or do you think you know better so don't need to look it up [edit: if you look it up, you'll get the joke]. It wasn't an insult but an observation on the entertainment elite who think they are better than pesky infectious diseases.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 09:46 AM
 
Location: The analog world
17,086 posts, read 9,887,713 times
Reputation: 22750
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlvancouver View Post
From that same study:
"A middle age, Midwestern man with high-school diploma, low income and a tendency not to think his vote matters much: this is the identity of the average American anti-vaxxer."
The California situation is an anomaly, based largely on the media covering the celebrity endorsement of the fraudulent studies that promoted false risks. Perhaps they think their celebrity status also provides immunity
"Taking a close look at school immunization records submitted to the state, the publication finds that ritzier schools favored by the entertainment-industry elite have the highest numbers of families opting to exempt their kids from shots. It seems those Hollywood stars who freely inject themselves with Botox are refusing to poke their children with life-saving vaccines that are vital to the overall health of a community."
Wealthy Hollywood parents aren’t vaccinating their children - The Mommy Files

So no, you're not part of an intellectual elite for being anti-vax, unless you're a Hollywood celebrity you're more likely (statistically) to be high school educated.
The bolded is pretty funny and absolutely true of the crowd to which I referred in my recent posts. I'm not saying they represent the majority of anti-vaxxers, but they were some of the biggest culprits in my former California stomping grounds. Very wealthy, very educated, and full of misplaced hubris.

Another big group were the Birkenstock-wearing crowd, who think organics are the solution to everything. Being an aspiring greenie myself, I'm supportive of healthy living, but eschewing vaccines just boggles my mind.

Last edited by randomparent; 07-16-2015 at 09:59 AM..
 
Old 07-16-2015, 09:49 AM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
3,510 posts, read 2,953,119 times
Reputation: 6379
Quote:
Originally Posted by randomparent View Post
The bolted is pretty funny and absolutely true of the crowd to which I referred in my recent posts. I'm not saying they represent the majority of anti-vaxxers, but they were some of the biggest culprits in my former California stomping grounds. Very wealthy, very educated, and full of misplaced hubris.


Vaccines=Bad and unnatural.


Injecting yourself with botulinum toxin which literally will kill you at a high enough dose=A-Okay.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 09:52 AM
 
Location: Marquette, Mich
1,214 posts, read 467,892 times
Reputation: 2580
Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
Yes, that is exactly what I meant



Its not worth the risk to the person who looses their child b/c of a vaccine, no, absolutely not. And I believe any parent who had a child die from a vaccine would change their tune awfully fast. Even you.





I don't believe there is a right or wrong on this subject....I had all the vaccines and was fine....however, not everyone feels this way, due to someone they know, or a family member who had a reaction, or worse, died or ended up with some kind of disabeling disease b/c of the vaccine.



Yes, it is easy, but this isn't hyperbole, or misinformation....and if you believe that, you are sorely misinformed...and I suggest then, you sit down and speak with a parent who lost their child due to a vaccine and argue your points so confidently....

People, we have to stop and think and consider each other, not everyone is the same, not everyone thinks and feels the same, especially due to experience.

I've seen what vaccines do to dogs, especially little dogs...I've also seen the good they do.....

So what I'm saying and you all, should be very very careful, b/c you cannot dictate to others how to think and feel....

but, it should be up to the parent to decide....and not anyone else.

and that is my stance...I am not against it, in the least, but I am against telling others how to live their lives...

I had Measles as a kid, also had mumps and chicken pox...they were all childhood diseases....a very few died...I don't know anyone in my school or town that died...but yes, we were kept home....gosh in those days, doctors came to the house...lol...and I do remember the mumps and how sick I was, the others, no biggy....except I scratched the chicken pox on my face and it left a scar...lol

and whoever said side effects are rare that isn't true....I do remember many kids getting side effects and almost dying from Penacillian. So, I wouldn't say they are rare, (be very careful of your choice of words, everyone) otherwise, every commercial wouldn't be listing all the side effects on TV, to cover their butts) Side effects do happen to people....everyone is different.

I can't use certain soaps....or eat seafood....while others can...some kids are allergic to peanut butter.

I've been immune deficient ever since I was a kid...always sick, with something...so, I could have very easily had a reaction to some of the vaccines...drugs that I was given....as I do today.

Its easy to conclude something, when it doesn't affect you, or a loved one...but when it does, then, it becomes a whole different story, please remember that folks.
And you can't dictate how I feel. Seriously. Don't impose your meaning system on me. I don't feel the same way you do. You are doing that very thing, saying I don't understand how that parent would feel, so I should change my tune. I'm saying YOU don't understand how a parent who loses a child due to illness feels, so consider that.

I was a child that had a life-threatening reaction to a pertussis vaccination. Me. My parents almost lost me. They STILL elected to have me get the remaining vaccinations, and to have my sister vaccinated fully, including pertussis. I have had a complicated life of illness. That is one reason I'm very glad to have been vaccinated. I had a terrible, terrible case of chickenpox. I had scarlet fever. I was hospitalized with mono when I was 9. I have HPV and had to have a huge chunk of my cervix removed. I don't want to worry about measles. Or whooping cough. Or anything else. It is a weight off my mind. So don't tell me I don't understand the scariness of being immune deficient. My reaction is just different than yours. I have used the information I have found (through my own research and my doctors'), and my parents did the same for me when I was young.

I am fortunate that my children are happy and healthy. I understand that. But my foundational beliefs would not change if I had a child that had an allergic reaction to something. I mean, my mother can't eat shrimp. My dad is allergic to bees. It doesn't mean nobody should eat shrimp salad at a picnic.

I had neighbors that lost a daughter because she was hit by a car when she was playing outside. They continued to let their other children play outside in the subsequent years.

You are assuming an awful lot about me, and you are assigning feelings and beliefs that are not true. And you are denying that the choices others make may affect me or my children. IF THERE IS A MEDICAL REASON FOR EXEMPTION, IT CAN BE OBTAINED. But if the reason is "I'm scared," that is not going to be enough. If you can't get an exemption, but feel strongly enough about it, then you can choose to ignore the law. THERE WILL BE CONSEQUENCES. But if that feeling is strong enough, aren't the consequences worth it? If not, then a position may need to be reevaluated.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 09:54 AM
 
26,591 posts, read 52,361,982 times
Reputation: 20438
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
You miscounted. there were nine vaccines in 1995. DPT and MMR are six vaccines, not two.
Yes I did and thank you for catching it
 
Old 07-16-2015, 10:04 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
23,456 posts, read 28,322,096 times
Reputation: 29049
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
My daughter was in the Military and got every vaccination under the sun before she went to boot camp. She spent the entire time in the Infirmary. Severe pains in her stomach, vomiting, and diarrhea. So bad that she dehydrated and had to be put on IV. Doctors couldn't find anything wrong with her. Probably an allergy they said.
Why did she not tell the doctor who did her enlistment physical that beef broth made her sick?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
The real fact is that we aren't comparing deaths from vaccines to death from the Measles historically. The truth is people don't die from the Measles in great numbers here today. So the risks don't equate. When or if that changes then they will be equal. Today more people report injury and death related to vaccination then they do the Measles in our country. To prevent "what if" scenarios with the threat of leaving a certain part of our population without a good education is in my view unnecessary and absurd.
Are you really so obtuse that you do not understand that the reason "people don't die from the Measles in great numbers here today" is because we vaccinate against measles?!!!

Quote:
If we get to compare today's statistics to historical incident then I'll start using historical data like the Cutter Laboratories disaster. We can all fear a repeat today. Same perspective.
Do you not understand the technology to reduce the risk of such an incident is much better today? You really pretty much do not understand vaccines at all, do you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
I'm sorry your daughter experienced this...my son was also in the military, and received probably the same vaccines and more, b/c he went over to Afghanistan....so even more vaccines were necessary...and this proves my point...he did ok with them...but his daughter is a chronic diabetic...and sometimes I can't help but wonder....? Yanno....? I'm not saying those vaccines, hurt her, but I'm also not saying they didn't. She has allergies terrible and ashma...and eye problems, and she is only 13.

My son or his wife did any drugs....nor did they drink, but whose to say? No one can prove it not to be true or to be true....

What I'm saying is, if you want your kids vaccinated fine...do it, but if you don't thats ok to...

This world is crazy, the media instills fear....when it shouldn't even be an issue.
People think, it's ok to tell others how they should think and feel and it's not ok.....period.

And that is my point with vaccines...unless their is an outbreak, then it is necessary to take all precautions.

OK, here is an example, they bring patients over to this country, from Africa with ebola? But, insist now that you must have vaccinations for chicken pox, etc????? Does that make any sense???

Like I said, I had all those childhood diseases....some it may kill, but a very small amount of child now a days die from Chicken pox....so you can look at both sides of this, and say, if the kid had the vaccine, he'd still be alive....

This is life....and it is never 100% full proof no matter how humans would like it to be...life is hard, sometimes, we sometimes are made to deal with horrible situations, but nothing we do is going to change thing and make it 100% safe.
You say "the media instills fear" and in the same breath imply that your son's vaccinations caused your granddaughter's diabetes. Vaccines do not cause diabetes, but there is evidence that certain infections may do so. If there had been a vaccine against viruses that cause diabetes, would you have wanted your granddaughter to take it?

Despite all the angst over Ebola, the only threat most of those patients posed was to the people taking care of them. The general public was at risk only from the patient who traveled here on his own, not those brought in, with appropriate precautions, for treatment. The threat became a reality only in a hospital taken off guard and not prepared to take care of an Ebola patient. Chicken pox is a greater threat in the US, especially to children, than Ebola.

There is no intent for vaccines to make life 100% safe, but they do a spectacular job of making safer than it is without them. It is foolish to wait until there is a major outbreak to vaccinate. The goal is to prevent those outbreaks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
GAITHERSBURG, Md., April 12 ó A panel of federal drug advisers voted 20 to 1 Thursday to reject an application by Merck to sell its pain pill Arcoxia because of concerns that the drug could cause as many as 30,000 heart attacks annually if widely used.

Why would I trust a mandate using Merck vaccines? When they are only interested in profit. It's a conflict of interest to mandate their products, they are nothing more than a corporation. How can my consumerism be mandated? Merck doesn't have the cleanest safety record.
If by "consumerism" you mean the interest of the consumer, there are extensive protocols in place for monitoring the safety of vaccines. You just choose to pretend they do not exist. Your "consumerism" cannot be "mandated". There is no way to make any drug or medical treatment totally risk free.

Are you aware the FDA rejects more new drug applications than it accepts? Are you aware that there are people who use NSAIDs despite the cardiovascular risk because the alternative is to either suffer the pain or use narcotics, which have their own serious side effects and adverse effects?

Arcoxia, by the way, is available in 80 other countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etoricoxib

"A Cochrane systematic review assessed the benefits of single-dose etoricoxib in reduction of acute post-operative pain in adults. Single-dose oral etoricoxib provides good quality pain relief post-operatively in adults and adverse events are similar to placebo in the studies included. Etoricoxib given at a dose of 120 mg is as effective or even better than other analgesics that are commonly used."

Since you are alli n favor of "choice", shouldn't the FDA approve Arcoxia and let patients choose to take it if they understand the risks?
 
Old 07-16-2015, 10:04 AM
 
26,591 posts, read 52,361,982 times
Reputation: 20438
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
I know it's difficult to trust pharma. Last month the doctor would strongly recommend my husband take Advil for his arthritis, yet this month it's a no because they've found out after numerous death and injury it isn't safe to take Advil for chronic pain relief. Science is as perfect as humans are and that's the only fact we can rely on. That simply leaves our own discretion. Which is why threatening it is wrong.
FDA strengthens warning that NSAIDs increase heart attack and stroke risk - Harvard Health Blog - Harvard Health Publications
The link also mentions Vioxx... we kept a large supply of Vioxx on hand and it was extremely popular for some patients... it was pulled in 2004.
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