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Old 07-16-2015, 11:01 AM
 
6,296 posts, read 3,547,517 times
Reputation: 7184

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tlvancouver View Post
From that same study:
"A middle age, Midwestern man with high-school diploma, low income and a tendency not to think his vote matters much: this is the identity of the average American anti-vaxxer."
The California situation is an anomaly, based largely on the media covering the celebrity endorsement of the fraudulent studies that promoted false risks. Perhaps they think their celebrity status also provides immunity
"Taking a close look at school immunization records submitted to the state, the publication finds that ritzier schools favored by the entertainment-industry elite have the highest numbers of families opting to exempt their kids from shots. It seems those Hollywood stars who freely inject themselves with Botox are refusing to poke their children with life-saving vaccines that are vital to the overall health of a community."
Wealthy Hollywood parents arenít vaccinating their children - The Mommy Files

So no, you're not part of an intellectual elite for being anti-vax, unless you're a Hollywood celebrity you're more likely (statistically) to be high school educated.
This is what you do not understand. No drug is 100% safe for 100% of the population. A parent or individual will never know what their own personal reaction will be to a drug, or vaccination, until they take for the first time.

Let me give Penicillin as an example. Perfectly safe, right? Well, my Dad was deathly allergic to Penicillin. I mean that literally. He went into cardiac arrest from a blood transfusion containing Penicillin. His allergy was listed on his chart. Do they test the blood supply for something like that?

I have absolutely no reaction at all to Penicillin as probably the majority of people. However, I found that I had a severe reaction to CIPRO. Took months to get my vision back. Did I know I would have this reaction to this antibiotic until I took it for the first time? Medicine says they are both safe, but obviously not for ALL.

Let me ask you this. One child dies from catching measles (RARE). One child dies from a MMR vaccination. Which child's life is worth more? Dead vaccinated child because his parents were doing the right thing to protect other children from dying? I doubt that view will give grieving parents very much comfort. All children lives are EQUAL. The dead child from measles was preventable? Well, the dead child from the vaccination was preventable also.

 
Old 07-16-2015, 11:06 AM
 
Location: Amongst the AZ Cactus
7,074 posts, read 4,895,532 times
Reputation: 7699
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlvancouver View Post
This is like playing irrationality roulette.

We've got the religious anti-vaxer, the conspiracy theorist, the natural foods only, the "vitamins cure everything", the "you're not the boss of me", the "my super human immune system fights off all illness, if your kid dies they must be weak", the "vaccines cause homosexuality", "it's all the immigrants' fault" and the ones that don't even know what they are...

Post a valid scientific or statistical point and spin the wheel, who knows which one it will land on. The response will be full of entitlement and indignation, with a large dose of "opinion" or "feelings", a side order of an unverifiable personal experience that supports their view (or a neighbor's experience, or an entire city with a red arm...).

Common denominator? A complete disregard for established science and immunology.
Hey, don't forget survival of the fittest/Darwinism.

I know, I know.....personal choice, no matter how "smart" or "stupid" one's view or choice is, we need someone to make you decide "right"!. And of course we have the never changing world of "science"/constant opposing views from experts on just about any health topic, always completely objective on all sides of course, decisions need to be determined by someone else outside of an individual. To have such thoughts!......Cringe! The horror!

Common denominator? A complete disregard for one's right to decide if the science is right/wrong for said individual and have control over what they put into their body no matter how silly/unreasonable you feel it is.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 11:13 AM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,401 posts, read 9,858,614 times
Reputation: 7441
Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
yeah, I'm outa here....you try and do something good and some people just refuse to read and see both sides of the coin, another problem with this world today...people think they can tell others how to live their lives...amazing.
It's ironic that this new warning from the FDA, which seems to at times come into conflict with the CDC, which has come out against NSAIDS safety( many made from Merck) expresses what a lot of people I included have believed long before the warnings came out. As these doctors say, long term injury is more helpful in catching the real risks of these medicines than clinical trials. Patients should use their own discretion when taking these medicines.
They go on to state this applies to all medicine. I'm not sure what people claim, "Hard Science" is but it certainly doesn't undermine human long term injury and death reports. It also does not undermine ones personal feeling about the choices they make, those choices regarding Advil or Celebrex could very well have prevented a heart attack.

Something we are as confident about as a couple of Advil for sore knees can be a risk we have to decide to take and weigh out those risks. Mandating raises the question, how can people take their own health into their own hands as recommended regarding other medicines from doctors and scientist and the FDA if they are threatened to have important parts of their life removed like public school or employment?

The contradictions are blatant.

This is a really thorough discussion on the Diane Rehm show I thought you'd like. It talks about the new warning, and the choices we should be making about our own health.

https://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2...in-medications
There is a small red, "listen" button. It's a great conversation and the similarities to what we are talking about, those things we are mentioning on here apply and are echoed throughout the show.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 11:16 AM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,401 posts, read 9,858,614 times
Reputation: 7441
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
Hey, don't forget survival of the fittest/Darwinism.

I know, I know.....personal choice, no matter how "smart" or "stupid" one's view or choice is, we need someone to make you decide "right"!. And of course we have the never changing world of "science"/constant opposing views from experts on just about any health topic, always completely objective on all sides of course, decisions need to be determined by someone else outside of an individual. To have such thoughts!......Cringe! The horror!

Common denominator? A complete disregard for one's right to decide if the science is right/wrong for said individual and have control over what they put into their body no matter how silly/unreasonable you feel it is.
Glad my husband listened to me when I told him taking Advil everyday after work for his sore muscles (recommended by his doctor as a safe alternative) didn't seem like a good idea. He has high blood pressure, and when this came out he looked at me and said "well, glad I listened to you and not the doc." His doctor is now not recommending this medicine and has recommended Tylenol or Aspirin.

*I wanted to add, the reason I warned him was because my brother passed away from complications due to NSAIDS he was on for a chronic back injury. So yes, I had a family member that died because of it. It was very sad, but later it became a useful experience none the less.

Last edited by PoppySead; 07-16-2015 at 11:34 AM.. Reason: Wanted to add without a new post.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 11:18 AM
 
Location: Marquette, Mich
1,185 posts, read 457,031 times
Reputation: 2499
Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
I am not imposing anything on you or dictating to you and was trying to be as nice as possible about this in my posts...sister don't start yelling at me....and yes I do understand how a parent feels who loses a child....you don't know me from Adam nor do you know what I've been thru...so don't you dare yell at me or start assuming...chill

If you look at my posts, I said I could see both sides of this!!!!!!!!



Where in God's name did I say that YOU don't understand the scariness of being immune deficient...missy, you need to think before you react...I'm not telling anyone here how to think or believe....what I was doing, was sharing my own personal feelings and thoughts, which again I will add, I can see both sides of this....the pros and cons...of both sides, period!!!

and because of that you come in here and slam me with all of this? This is not having a controlled conversation, this is pysco babbel....you fly off the hook b/c you think I'm talking against you...

Lady, you need to re-read before you go attacking someone....seriously....talk about reaction...

I'm sorry you've experienced the health issues you have, but your not the only one who has experienced sadness of health issues...and loss, believe me....what works for you might not work for me....or visa versa and if you can't understand that, then our conversation needs to be limited....
sorry, I'm happy to hear you out, but you need to calm down and use an inside voice to communicate, otherwise we accomplish nothing, do we.

And BTW, I'm not about to list my problems to you....or anyone else, to prove my point.
You can slow your roll. I think if either of us has been heated, it may be this post from you. I have not "flown off the hook." And, um, you brought up a few things in your medical history. I did so as a response to that, and it had relevance. And I don't engage in "psycho babbel"--I don't even know what you refer to there.

You know, of all my college classes, the most bang for my buck was that philosophy class where the prof taught about the importance of not imposing our meaning systems on others. You can forcefully defend your point without resorting to histrionics and insult. Yes, I am passionate about this. Yes, I think I am looking at things objectively. Yes, I may get frustrated or even angry. But I don't resort to name calling or try to control how anyone expresses herself. You are engaging in a free exchange. I did not "slam you" with anything. If challenged, I will back up my statements. You are free to do the same.

But your tone here is not helping your arguments.

Oh, and if you assume my all caps were yelling, I'm sorry. They are emphasis. That is all. I don't need to yell anything at anyone, and certainly not on a web forum.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 11:21 AM
 
Location: BC, Arizona
1,170 posts, read 790,989 times
Reputation: 2377
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
Hey, don't forget survival of the fittest/Darwinism.

I know, I know.....personal choice, no matter how "smart" or "stupid" one's view or choice is, we need someone to make you decide "right"!. And of course we have the never changing world of "science"/constant opposing views from experts on just about any health topic, always completely objective on all sides of course, decisions need to be determined by someone else outside of an individual. To have such thoughts!......Cringe! The horror!

Common denominator? A complete disregard for one's right to decide if the science is right/wrong for said individual and have control over what they put into their body no matter how silly/unreasonable you feel it is.
To the bolded yes, in California if you don't want to homeschool and your child is healthy.

I am glad that state legislators are protecting the children from the impact of irrational decisions that impact not only themselves but others. [insert rebuttal about all the other things government could do - yawn]

Choice:

Nobody is forced to vaccinate. You want choice? You've got choice all over the place.

Choose not to vaccinate, choose to homeschool in California.

Choose not to homeschool in California, choose to vaccinate or move elsewhere (a chart was provided earlier which showed you the states that still allow "personal exemptions".

If personal "feeling" exemptions (not actual medical exemptions remain) are eliminated in your new state, repeat the process.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 11:25 AM
 
Location: BC, Arizona
1,170 posts, read 790,989 times
Reputation: 2377
 
Old 07-16-2015, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
23,272 posts, read 28,076,984 times
Reputation: 28731
Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
Promote means to encourage, not demand or mandate a law....

in this day and age, what kind of risk are you talking about?

When people started questioning (which was a good thing) that so called epidemic that was in Florida....all of a sudden you didn't hear anything else about it.....????

I'm sorry but your wrong in this...you cannot tell people how to live their lives and to think and believe as you do....

besides, if your kid is vaccinated, there is no danger....if you can call chicken pox or measles danger? They are not life threatening diseases...now if we were talking about ebola, then that is a whole different ball game.
What "so called epidemic in Florida"?

Repeating (I have lost count of how many times this has been said in this thread and others): Some people are not protected by their vaccinations!!!!!!! They may not respond, or they may have lost their protection due to compromised immune systems.

Measles is not life threatening? Sixteen people die every hour from measles worldwide. A woman with a compromised immune system, here in the US, died a few weeks ago from measles. A four year old boy in the US is in hospice, dying from neurological damage from measles he had when he was an infant too young to be vaccinated.

Deaths from chicken pox are less common, but they do happen. Twenty percent of pregnant women who get chicken pox develop pneumonia, and before the availability of antiviral medication, forty percent of them died. Babies can be infected in utero, resulting in fetal loss or if the infection is near delivery, a baby infected at birth.

Measles and chicken pox can indeed be life threatening.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
well I'm sorry but when you say California, to me your talking about a whole lot of illegals who just don't care....plus those kids are coming into this country with disease, so America has put this on herself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
now tell me, how many of those kids are illegals?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
sorry but your wrong...those kids are all coming from other countries and do not have any vaccinations...
that is why they set up camps for them...however, we hear nothing more about them and they are now in our schools....
Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
RIGHT!!! Sorry but the amount of illegal children in this country is just insane....and they don't have their shots....
Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
Honestly, I'm not doubting you, and I believe your telling the truth, but what I'm saying is, the number of illegals way outnumber U.S. Citizens you know....that are not vaccinated....there are way more illegals that are not....
When you persist in an opinion that multiple posters tell you is wrong, you might want to stop and consider that you might be wrong.

My daughter in law is from Mexico. She tells me that parental permission is not needed to vaccinate a child there. If the health department discovers a child is not vaccinated, someone goes to the home and administers the vaccine. If there is only a sitter there, the child gets the vaccine and a record is left for the parent.

The children who illegally crossed the border from Central America were mostly vaccinated. Some even had their shot records with them. The illnesses they had were the same that American kids get, mostly colds and diarrhea (which may have actually been due to change in diet).

Countries around the globe vaccinate. Illegal immigrants are not the source of measles and whooping cough here. Whooping cough is home grown. It was never eliminated. Measles is imported, mostly by unvaccinated Americans who travel to areas where measles still circulates but also by legal visitors (we call those folks tourists and business travelers).

I do not like illegal immigration either, but illegal immigrants are not bringing vaccine preventable diseases to the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
An Atheist believes the president looses credibility because he blesses the United States in name of a God in the sky or heavens that blesses and protects us all from an evil angel named Satan who is responsible for bad events.
I think you will find that atheists do not give a hoot what the President believes about God or Satan, since to an atheist neither of those exist.

Quote:
actually, what are the chances a kid that is vaccinated for chicken pox gets chicken pox, whopping cough, and measels?
Sorry I can't spell worth a darn....
Why would you expect a child who got chicken pox vaccine to be protected against measles and whooping cough? Seriously, your understanding of vaccines is so flawed you need to either stop discussing them or read something about them that does not come from an anti-vax web site.

Start here:

https://books.google.com/books/about...d=tWRKH-bz6qgC

Quote:
Originally Posted by leebeemi View Post
I am trying to stay caught up, but my head is spinning. I want to clarify a couple of things without responding to specific posters because I think people sometimes only respond to the fact that there's a counterpoint, instead of actually considering the point someone else is trying to make.

VAERS data is not a reliable source for vaccine injury stats. The reason isn't necessarily making FALSE claims, but making claims they sincerely believe to be true but simply are not. Since not all reports to VAERS are from medical professionals, the claims made are not necessarily valid. A parent who BELIEVES a report to be valid is not necessarily right. AND, many incidents are not made--but those aren't all serious incidents. For example, I have never submitted a report based on a mild fever, soreness at the injection site, swelling, headache, etc. Those may or may not be things due to a vaccination, or they could be coincidental. It's like the flu--I may get the flu shortly after getting a shot, but it's likely because I was exposed to it PRIOR to getting the shot.

I am not for vaccine mandates just to protect my child. It's not a child=child situation. The problem is that rising rates in unvaccinated children means the potential for spreading preventable, dangerous illness rises. Risk goes up. So what seems a simple decision that only affects ONE child is, in fact, impacting far more. It's not my choice trumping your choice. It is that your choice has far-reaching implications.

I really wish each and every person stating how common and normal and insignificant these illnesses would just stop. They are not like that for everyone. Each one has potentially serious impact. You cannot equate YOUR experience to the entire population. Just as I understand not everyone will get as sick as I did with chickenpox, it is YOUR responsibility to understand that some WILL get sicker than you did.

I like multi-quotes. Makes it easier for me to get caught up. Please keep on multi-quotin'!

If a person who is vaccinated travels to an area where illnesses they are vaccinated for are active, the odds that they get sick are low. Which is great. But more importantly, that means they will not continue to spread the illness to OTHER people. Posters keep saying there hasn't been an epidemic since "whenever." But the larger the unvaccinated population gets, the more likely a large outbreak (even an epidemic) becomes. This is not a "YOU" choice. This is an "ALL OF US" choice. I do not respect the choice to put others at risk based on faulty logic and bunk science.

If you are opposed to vaccines because you are afraid, I get it. But understand, you are being manipulated by people capitalizing on that fear. Over and over again, there are articles, studies, opinions, etc., being cited that have clearly been proven wrong. Proven. Wrong. But the response is along the lines of, "Pfft, I don't believe you, 'cause you're just part of the conspiracy to inject poison into the population." Nowhere has there been a, "Hmmm, that's an excellent point, and I hadn't considered that." Present me with something factual, from a reputable source, that I can verify and find support for, then I will consider your evidence. I have tried to keep up, but I have not yet seen one single thing that I can grab onto. You are not giving me anything that I can trust. Sorry, it is not good enough just to have published things. I can publish something. It doesn't make it a trustworthy publication.

Laymen do not have a firm grip on scientific process or terminology. Take the term "toxin." We throw it around like it means something. It really doesn't. Do you know what a toxin is? It's a poisonous substance produced within animal or plant cells. The kicker is, different substances are "toxic" at different concentrations/quantities/amounts. WATER can be toxic. Bee stings are toxins. Yes, for some, that's life-threatening. For most, not. Now, synthetic (man-made) substances can be "toxic," but are not technically toxins. See--it gets confusing. And we bandy things about because we read it here or there without having a firm understanding of what it means. So a "toxin" may or may not be life-threatening depending on how much of it there is. A great many substances may be "toxic" at one level, and not another.

Obtuse denial of fact isn't winning an argument. Obtuse denial of fact can be harmful. Especially when we're dealing with such high-stakes subjects. This CAN become life-or-death. I believe we have a responsibility to keep it from becoming that. Hence, vaccine mandates.

Whether you like the consequences or not, you do have a choice. It's not less of a choice because the consequence is significant. Even civil disobedience is a choice. You can oppose a law. You can refuse to comply with a law. But there will be consequences. That's the price of living in our society. It's how it's supposed to work. Sometimes it works how I want it to, sometimes it doesn't. I can oppose a law, I can refuse to comply with it. I will then pay the consequences.
Well said!

Off to continue multi-quotin'!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
So the more educated you are, the less likely you are to get vaccines? Why? Why would the poor or less educated by more easily vaccinated than those who have more education? What's your theory? Is it that those who are educated with more money are stupider than those who are poor or less educated or is it that they have more choices because that's what money buys? Like the ability to hire someone to home school your kids while you hold a job.
It's because there is a subset of misinformed "educated" people with no formal medical training who are convinced they know more than doctors about vaccines.

It is not true that "the more educated you are, the less likely you are to get vaccines". The larger subset of educated people do vaccinate.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 11:41 AM
 
Location: Amongst the AZ Cactus
7,074 posts, read 4,895,532 times
Reputation: 7699
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlvancouver View Post
To the bolded yes, in California if you don't want to homeschool and your child is healthy.

I am glad that state legislators are protecting the children from the impact of irrational decisions that impact not only themselves but others. [insert rebuttal about all the other things government could do - yawn]

Choice:

Nobody is forced to vaccinate. You want choice? You've got choice all over the place.

Choose not to vaccinate, choose to homeschool in California.

Choose not to homeschool in California, choose to vaccinate or move elsewhere (a chart was provided earlier which showed you the states that still allow "personal exemptions".

If personal "feeling" exemptions (not actual medical exemptions remain) are eliminated in your new state, repeat the process.

And equally, I have my version:

Choice:

- Nobody is forcing vaccinated/immune compromised people to hang around non-vaccinated people.

- Non-vaccinated/immune compromised/vaccinated people who think they aren't protected, the minority, can choose homeschool in California

- Choose not to homeschool in California, move elsewhere where one is comfortable.

- Those unvaccinated/immune compromised/vaccinated people who think they aren't protect might consider staying completely out of public spaces ANYWHERE in the city/state/country/world as outbreaks are just as likely in those spots as they are to happen in CA public school.

This serves the vast majority.

And most importantly, doesn't provide strings(ie one need to vaccinate to attend public school) if they choose not to put things in their body they aren't comfortable with and are ok with taking on additional risk.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 11:50 AM
 
Location: BC, Arizona
1,170 posts, read 790,989 times
Reputation: 2377
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
And equally, I have my version:

Choice:

- Nobody is forcing vaccinated/immune compromised people to hang around non-vaccinated people.

- Non-vaccinated/immune compromised/vaccinated people who think they aren't protected, the minority, can choose homeschool in California

- Choose not to homeschool in California, move elsewhere where one is comfortable.

- Those unvaccinated/immune compromised/vaccinated people who think they aren't protect might consider staying completely out of public spaces ANYWHERE in the city/state/country/world as outbreaks are just as likely in those spots as they are to happen in CA public school.

This serves the vast majority.

And most importantly, doesn't provide strings(ie one need to vaccinate to attend public school) if they choose not to put things in their body they aren't comfortable with and are ok with taking on additional risk.
Thankfully the majority of people across the country, notwithstanding their political leanings, gender or age disagree with you.

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