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Old 07-16-2015, 12:54 PM
 
25,568 posts, read 23,458,366 times
Reputation: 15396

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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
What "so called epidemic in Florida"?

Quote:
Repeating (I have lost count of how many times this has been said in this thread and others): Some people are not protected by their vaccinations!!!!!!! They may not respond, or they may have lost their protection due to compromised immune systems.
and I'm loosing count of how many times I've said, I can see both sides of this...and b/c you and a few others refuse to look at both sides, we have this check mate...that's all it is....yes, I know, I have a compromised immune system...but that isn't the majority....

Quote:
Measles is not life threatening? Sixteen people die every hour from measles worldwide. A woman with a compromised immune system, here in the US, died a few weeks ago from measles. A four year old boy in the US is in hospice, dying from neurological damage from measles he had when he was an infant too young to be vaccinated.
We aren't talking worldwide, 16 people die every hour worldwide...we're talking about the U.S. here.

and yes, I don't doubt a woman died a few weeks ago from measles....some people do....just like some kids die from vaccines.


Quote:
Deaths from chicken pox are less common, but they do happen. Twenty percent of pregnant women who get chicken pox develop pneumonia, and before the availability of antiviral medication, forty percent of them died. Babies can be infected in utero, resulting in fetal loss or if the infection is near delivery, a baby infected at birth.
yes, I know that....they do indeed happen....

Quote:
Measles and chicken pox can indeed be life threatening.
yes, but less then more....









Quote:
When you persist in an opinion that multiple posters tell you is wrong, you might want to stop and consider that you might be wrong.
And what exactly do you call what your doing....? I can easily turn this around and counter....like I've said, I can see both points of view, but...your hell bent on attacking my personal beliefs of the cons of it...

Quote:
My daughter in law is from Mexico. She tells me that parental permission is not needed to vaccinate a child there. If the health department discovers a child is not vaccinated, someone goes to the home and administers the vaccine. If there is only a sitter there, the child gets the vaccine and a record is left for the parent.
This is not Mexico.....if it were, we'd be crossing over in to their country


Quote:
Countries around the globe vaccinate. Illegal immigrants are not the source of measles and whooping cough here. Whooping cough is home grown. It was never eliminated. Measles is imported, mostly by unvaccinated Americans who travel to areas where measles still circulates but also by legal visitors (we call those folks tourists and business travelers).
you cannot and will not totally eliminate diseases...every once in a while yo see something erupts that doctors haven't seen in years....and also, mice/rats carry awful diseases, so do birds....and that is why the worry about people being immune to antibiotics....

Quote:
I do not like illegal immigration either, but illegal immigrants are not bringing vaccine preventable diseases to the US.
see, this is where we disagree....no disease is 100% vaccine preventable...


Quote:
I think you will find that atheists do not give a hoot what the President believes about God or Satan, since to an atheist neither of those exist.
I'm not an atheist, but do get your point



Quote:
Why would you expect a child who got chicken pox vaccine to be protected against measles and whooping cough? Seriously, your understanding of vaccines is so flawed you need to either stop discussing them or read something about them that does not come from an anti-vax web site.
where did I say that, I said no such thing....

Start here:

https://books.google.com/books/about...d=tWRKH-bz6qgC



Well said!

Off to continue multi-quotin'!



It's because there is a subset of misinformed "educated" people with no formal medical training who are convinced they know more than doctors about vaccines.

It is not true that "the more educated you are, the less likely you are to get vaccines". The larger subset of educated people do vaccinate.
yanno what Suzi, I don't respond to your posts alot, due to your insulting remarks....
I can never understand, why people get so nasty due to a disagreement, or belief, that they resort to mean ness and insults as a last resort....why, why is it so necessary to be nasty?

 
Old 07-16-2015, 12:56 PM
 
Location: Amongst the AZ Cactus
7,074 posts, read 4,625,201 times
Reputation: 7672
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlvancouver View Post
Thankfully the majority of people across the country, notwithstanding their political leanings, gender or age disagree with you.
Which makes my point even more valid/doable. Let the few who make the "wrong" choice do what they want with no strings attached to attend something like public school as the vast majority of the herd will be fine/protected because the majority are doing "right" thing which makes this law completely unnecessary.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 01:09 PM
 
25,568 posts, read 23,458,366 times
Reputation: 15396
and by the way people, when you have a loved one who has multiple health illnesses, that are life changing and threatening, you grasp at straws and think illogically...so I'd like to thank the person who kindly offered their thoughts on behalf of why my grand daughter has diabetes...that it was illogical to believe that, thank you!!!

I don't know what shots and vaccines my son had when he left the country...but when you love someone your mind doesn't always think logically...you look for answers even though there are none.

I apologize to those of you who are insulted by my beliefs and those that are either for or against them....
I stand where I've always stood on this issue....on the fence, b/c I don't know...and I'm actually sorry I came into this thread. I know better!

I can understand everyone's points of view....but when someone starts yelling and resorting to insults nothing but nothing gets accomplished......

no one's an idiot....here....why can't we just all get along....

You can't force people to think and believe as you do, and when you loose tempers nothing gets accomplished....
 
Old 07-16-2015, 01:11 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
3,510 posts, read 2,818,593 times
Reputation: 6371
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
Which makes my point even more valid/doable. Let the few who make the "wrong" choice do what they want with no strings attached to attend something like public school as the vast majority of the herd will be fine/protected because the majority are doing "right" thing which makes this law completely unnecessary.


Except people making the wrong choice tend to cluster, creating more disease reservoirs, putting at risk those who were never even consulted in the process as we saw with the Disneyland outbreak.


The law is here to stay, people can gripe and moan and complain and stomp their feet, in the end they will either have to simply get over it, homeschool their kids or move.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 01:24 PM
 
Location: Amongst the AZ Cactus
7,074 posts, read 4,625,201 times
Reputation: 7672
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juram View Post
Except people making the wrong choice tend to cluster, creating more disease reservoirs, putting at risk those who were never even consulted in the process as we saw with the Disneyland outbreak.


The law is here to stay, people can gripe and moan and complain and stomp their feet, in the end they will either have to simply get over it, homeschool their kids or move.
I wasn't consulted either when I got some bad cases of flu over my life, especially when I was a young kid. We should have laws against such people, force them to get vaccines to protect me and others given how deadly/serious the flu can be to so many segments of our population.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 01:24 PM
 
Location: BC, Arizona
1,170 posts, read 754,954 times
Reputation: 2377
Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
and by the way people, when you have a loved one who has multiple health illnesses, that are life changing and threatening, you grasp at straws and think illogically...so I'd like to thank the person who kindly offered their thoughts on behalf of why my grand daughter has diabetes...that it was illogical to believe that, thank you!!!

I don't know what shots and vaccines my son had when he left the country...but when you love someone your mind doesn't always think logically...you look for answers even though there are none.

I apologize to those of you who are insulted by my beliefs and those that are either for or against them....
I stand where I've always stood on this issue....on the fence, b/c I don't know...and I'm actually sorry I came into this thread. I know better!

I can understand everyone's points of view....but when someone starts yelling and resorting to insults nothing but nothing gets accomplished......

no one's an idiot....here....why can't we just all get along....

You can't force people to think and believe as you do, and when you loose tempers nothing gets accomplished....
If you want to be informed, the data is there, it's not hard to find, it is clear and unequivocal (start with my graphic above). But might I suggest that as you look to learn, posting your "beliefs" that are admittedly uninformed isn't a way to be respected. Questions are good, but posting "beliefs" are not without some medical support for them.

If you search above I posted approximately 15 links to reputable medical studies. Asking what people "think" isn't the way to do it and on this site you'll see many of us getting frustrated when people put what they "think" as equal to thousands of peer reviewed medical studies on more than 25 million children that prove childhood vaccines are very safe and prevent deaths.

Look at it this way - you have a family member with multiple illnesses so you understand the impact of being ill.

Vaccines give you a chance to prevent more than 15 illnesses that kill and disable people, the odds of a serious adverse reaction to childhood vaccines are less than one in a million.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 01:30 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
3,510 posts, read 2,818,593 times
Reputation: 6371
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
I wasn't consulted either when I got some bad cases of flu over my life, especially when I was a young kid. We should have laws against such people, force them to get vaccines to protect me and others given how deadly/serious the flu can be to so many segments of our population.
Start a petition then, talk to politicians and doctors, if there is majority support for your cause, you might just succeed.


In the meantime, because it does have majority support, because it has the backing from both the medical and political establishment, mandatory vaccination is the law in California.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 01:32 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,706 posts, read 26,406,437 times
Reputation: 26886
Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
No, more so, it's a waste of time, b/c when someone does go in and google proof, they retort, that it's not true anyway, which is something I've learned over the years, with posting in here....
just like your posts, they are one person's opinion...
When someone tells you are wrong and provides facts to support it, that is not just opinion.


Quote:
I'm sorry, but that is one issue I won't agree with you on.....
Your belief that illegal immigrants are bringing vaccine preventable diseases into the US is a delusion.

Most people who come here illegally are vaccinated. It's a fact. Denying facts just makes you come across as incapable of learning.

Quote:
and this again, one person's opinion....
... backed by sources, if you bothered to follow the links in the article.

How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak - Vox

"But in the first half of 2014 alone, there were 288 cases. And nearly all of them, the CDC researchers wrote in findings published last June, stemmed from Americans traveling abroad and returning with the disease.

'Of the 288 cases, 280 (97 percent) were associated with importations from at least 18 countries,' they wrote. Many of these travelers were coming back from the Philippines, which has been dealing with a massive outbreak since fall 2013."

'What we've seen since the epidemic of measles was interrupted in 2000 is that we are continually getting measles coming in from overseas,' says Jane Seward, deputy director of the viral diseases division at the CDC. 'More often than not, it's US residents who go overseas for a trip to say, Europe, where they don't think they need to be vaccinated. They bring measles back.' "

Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
I have no bigotry toward legal immigrants...I have a girl friend who is a legal immigrant....but yes, I have a big huge problem with illegals! Period!

and yes indeed, I can feel however I like....and I would tend to say, and maybe I'm wrong on this, that there are way more American's vaccinated then unvaccinated.....

God, I came into this thread to offer light from both perspectives, and this.....

Just b/c you offer up links, doesn't mean they are correct.
You are entitled to "feel" however you like. Your "feeling" that illegal immigrants are bringing vaccine preventable diseases to the US is wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
This is what you do not understand. No drug is 100% safe for 100% of the population. A parent or individual will never know what their own personal reaction will be to a drug, or vaccination, until they take for the first time.

Let me give Penicillin as an example. Perfectly safe, right? Well, my Dad was deathly allergic to Penicillin. I mean that literally. He went into cardiac arrest from a blood transfusion containing Penicillin. His allergy was listed on his chart. Do they test the blood supply for something like that?

I have absolutely no reaction at all to Penicillin as probably the majority of people. However, I found that I had a severe reaction to CIPRO. Took months to get my vision back. Did I know I would have this reaction to this antibiotic until I took it for the first time? Medicine says they are both safe, but obviously not for ALL.

Let me ask you this. One child dies from catching measles (RARE). One child dies from a MMR vaccination. Which child's life is worth more? Dead vaccinated child because his parents were doing the right thing to protect other children from dying? I doubt that view will give grieving parents very much comfort. All children lives are EQUAL. The dead child from measles was preventable? Well, the dead child from the vaccination was preventable also.
No doctor would ever claim penicillin is 100% safe, just as he would never claim a vaccine is 100% safe
Do you think everyone offered Cipro should be tested for it first? Penicillin? No? then why refuse a vaccine because you might be allergic to it?

We would grieve for either dead child, but we would be grieving for a lot more children dead from measles than we would those dead from the vaccine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
Hey, don't forget survival of the fittest/Darwinism.

I know, I know.....personal choice, no matter how "smart" or "stupid" one's view or choice is, we need someone to make you decide "right"!. And of course we have the never changing world of "science"/constant opposing views from experts on just about any health topic, always completely objective on all sides of course, decisions need to be determined by someone else outside of an individual. To have such thoughts!......Cringe! The horror!

Common denominator? A complete disregard for one's right to decide if the science is right/wrong for said individual and have control over what they put into their body no matter how silly/unreasonable you feel it is.
You may choose not to vaccinate. No one will force you to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
It's ironic that this new warning from the FDA, which seems to at times come into conflict with the CDC, which has come out against NSAIDS safety( many made from Merck) expresses what a lot of people I included have believed long before the warnings came out. As these doctors say, long term injury is more helpful in catching the real risks of these medicines than clinical trials. Patients should use their own discretion when taking these medicines.
They go on to state this applies to all medicine. I'm not sure what people claim, "Hard Science" is but it certainly doesn't undermine human long term injury and death reports. It also does not undermine ones personal feeling about the choices they make, those choices regarding Advil or Celebrex could very well have prevented a heart attack.

Something we are as confident about as a couple of Advil for sore knees can be a risk we have to decide to take and weigh out those risks. Mandating raises the question, how can people take their own health into their own hands as recommended regarding other medicines from doctors and scientist and the FDA if they are threatened to have important parts of their life removed like public school or employment?

The contradictions are blatant.
Many people will continue to use Advil because they will find it relieves pain better than Tylenol or aspirin, both of which also have potential serious adverse effects, or narcotics. Shouldn't they have that choice?

You may choose not to vaccinate, just as you are free to ignore any other law you wish to. Just be prepared to deal with the consequences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
And equally, I have my version:

Choice:

- Nobody is forcing vaccinated/immune compromised people to hang around non-vaccinated people.

- Non-vaccinated/immune compromised/vaccinated people who think they aren't protected, the minority, can choose homeschool in California

- Choose not to homeschool in California, move elsewhere where one is comfortable.

- Those unvaccinated/immune compromised/vaccinated people who think they aren't protect might consider staying completely out of public spaces ANYWHERE in the city/state/country/world as outbreaks are just as likely in those spots as they are to happen in CA public school.

This serves the vast majority.

And most importantly, doesn't provide strings(ie one need to vaccinate to attend public school) if they choose not to put things in their body they aren't comfortable with and are ok with taking on additional risk.
Why do those who refuse to vaccinate healthy children get to dictate what everyone else does?

Sorry, it's not going to happen.
 
Old 07-16-2015, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,401 posts, read 9,598,934 times
Reputation: 7421
Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
and by the way people, when you have a loved one who has multiple health illnesses, that are life changing and threatening, you grasp at straws and think illogically...so I'd like to thank the person who kindly offered their thoughts on behalf of why my grand daughter has diabetes...that it was illogical to believe that, thank you!!!

I don't know what shots and vaccines my son had when he left the country...but when you love someone your mind doesn't always think logically...you look for answers even though there are none.

I apologize to those of you who are insulted by my beliefs and those that are either for or against them....
I stand where I've always stood on this issue....on the fence, b/c I don't know...and I'm actually sorry I came into this thread. I know better!

I can understand everyone's points of view....but when someone starts yelling and resorting to insults nothing but nothing gets accomplished......

no one's an idiot....here....why can't we just all get along....

You can't force people to think and believe as you do, and when you loose tempers nothing gets accomplished....
Use your ignore list. That way to can still carry on a normal less argumentative conversation with those who don't resort to combative debate tactics and just stick to those posters who can be civil even though they disagree. I've been quite pleased with it. Out of sight out of mind. Rules are maintain and all is well.

Last edited by PoppySead; 07-16-2015 at 01:43 PM..
 
Old 07-16-2015, 01:35 PM
 
Location: The analog world
16,139 posts, read 8,962,620 times
Reputation: 21538
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
And equally, I have my version:

Choice:

- Nobody is forcing vaccinated/immune compromised people to hang around non-vaccinated people.

- Non-vaccinated/immune compromised/vaccinated people who think they aren't protected, the minority, can choose homeschool in California

- Choose not to homeschool in California, move elsewhere where one is comfortable.

- Those unvaccinated/immune compromised/vaccinated people who think they aren't protect might consider staying completely out of public spaces ANYWHERE in the city/state/country/world as outbreaks are just as likely in those spots as they are to happen in CA public school.

This serves the vast majority.

And most importantly, doesn't provide strings(ie one need to vaccinate to attend public school) if they choose not to put things in their body they aren't comfortable with and are ok with taking on additional risk.
Let's hope you aren't ever diagnosed with a condition treated with immunosuppressive medications. What you're asking is impossible.
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