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Old 07-20-2015, 08:46 PM
 
Location: Marquette, Mich
1,022 posts, read 384,204 times
Reputation: 2322

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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
You think it is folly to "trust" your immune system but you "trust" vaccines. How is that any different? You say we shouldn't use faith in the equation... yet you have "faith" that vaccines will protect you. Many vaccinated children and adults get the diseases they are vaccinated against. Sometimes faith and trust doesn't work and sometimes medicine and science fails.

The FACT is that vaccines contain know poisons and are given to perfectly healthy people... what more could be a compelling reason for concern from some people? Unvaccinated children have to be exposed to a disease before they are dangerous to those who cannot vaccinate. Therefore, they are harmless to the average person. We are talking about a small percentage of people who don't vaccinate coming in contact with a small percentage of people who can't. The odds are...

Take the woman in Washington who died of pneumonia allegedly from an unvaccinated kid. Faceless, nameless person... get "preventable" disease... have complications... is immune compromised... exposed weeks earlier... news report comes out months later just days after CA bill passes... Smells Fishy to me.
No. You are assigning "faith" in a completely different way. "Belief" that all vaccines are bad, despite evidence to the contrary, is erroneous. That stubborn belief, without actual fact to back it up, is a faith in something that is unverifiable and illogical. "Faith" in science is completely different. I don't have a blind belief that vaccines are good. I look to evidence and fact, and that is my conclusion.

"Vaccines contain known poisons" is akin to yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. Are there things in vaccines that could be harmful to the average person. Well, yes. But remember--WATER can be harmful. It's about more than just a label. You are missing so much of the equation. It's misleading at best. I don't know how you are missing such a big piece of the puzzle. These illnesses are not harmless, and they are spread when not enough people are immune, which is achieved through vaccinations. Achieving immunity through actually contracting these illnesses is not efficient, nor is it desirable. The potential outcome of that scenario is seriously bad. Seriously.

And now a woman who dies of pneumonia is some kind of shill for promoting vaccines? Please tell me I have it wrong, that I have misunderstood. Because people die of these things. Really and truly. And at higher rates than the potential vaccination injuries, whether you believe it or not.

 
Old 07-20-2015, 09:19 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,386,559 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by leebeemi View Post
No. You are assigning "faith" in a completely different way. "Belief" that all vaccines are bad, despite evidence to the contrary, is erroneous. That stubborn belief, without actual fact to back it up, is a faith in something that is unverifiable and illogical. "Faith" in science is completely different. I don't have a blind belief that vaccines are good. I look to evidence and fact, and that is my conclusion.
No I'm not.. You have "faith" and a "belief" that vaccines are good and they work. The evidence is studies with bias. I set up many labs in college. I watched the students. They "tweaked" the results to reach a conclusion based on the given hypothesis. You choose to "believe" the vaccine works and is safe by "faith."
Quote:
Originally Posted by leebeemi View Post
"Vaccines contain known poisons" is akin to yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. Are there things in vaccines that could be harmful to the average person. Well, yes. But remember--WATER can be harmful. It's about more than just a label. You are missing so much of the equation. It's misleading at best. I don't know how you are missing such a big piece of the puzzle. These illnesses are not harmless, and they are spread when not enough people are immune, which is achieved through vaccinations. Achieving immunity through actually contracting these illnesses is not efficient, nor is it desirable. The potential outcome of that scenario is seriously bad. Seriously.
Ok so look at these stats:
Babies who follow the CDC immunization schedule are injected with nearly 5000mcg of
aluminum by 18 months of age.
Even back in the early 1900's they knew that aluminum was a neurotoxin.

"When aluminum is experimentally introduced to the central nervous system, several neurotoxic effects are observed:i.e. neurofibrillary changes, behavioral and cognitive deficits and enzymatic and neurotransmitter changes, as well as certain types of epileptic seizures."
Aluminum neurotoxicity in mammals - Springer
Seizures and syncope are common in HPV vaccine adverse reactions. Why? Because a series of three shots contains over 1500 mcg of aluminum in just a few months.

The safety level of aluminum is 4 to 5mcg per kilogram of body weight per day according to the FDA yet a child could receive shots with over 250 mcg of aluminum in it's first day of life with the Hep B shot. Most infants are born around 8lbs so what... 250 mcg is 100x above the toxicity levels that the body can handle?
That is poisoning our kids.
Quote:
Originally Posted by leebeemi View Post
And now a woman who dies of pneumonia is some kind of shill for promoting vaccines? Please tell me I have it wrong, that I have misunderstood. Because people die of these things. Really and truly. And at higher rates than the potential vaccination injuries, whether you believe it or not.
I live in WA and the woman is, to this day, unnamed and unidentified. Her illness and it's relationship with Measles is still unknown. The fact that it happened in April but was reported months later is suspect. You don't find that suspect? Let's apply our critical thinking skills here. WA reported the last case of measles in mid April yet she somehow got it after that time? From whom? Why isn't the WA DOH being more transparent? Why have the relatives of this woman not spoken out in support of vaccines? You would think they would but.... *crickets*
 
Old 07-21-2015, 01:03 AM
 
Location: Washington state
4,680 posts, read 2,302,044 times
Reputation: 13681
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post

I live in WA and the woman is, to this day, unnamed and unidentified. Her illness and it's relationship with Measles is still unknown. The fact that it happened in April but was reported months later is suspect. You don't find that suspect? Let's apply our critical thinking skills here. WA reported the last case of measles in mid April yet she somehow got it after that time? From whom? Why isn't the WA DOH being more transparent? Why have the relatives of this woman not spoken out in support of vaccines? You would think they would but.... *crickets*
They didn't find out she had measles until after the autopsy. And it wouldn't be the first time a news story "broke" months after it happened. I see that all the time.
 
Old 07-21-2015, 06:08 AM
 
5,644 posts, read 3,196,510 times
Reputation: 6628
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
If you waited till your daughters were 18, chances are they already had sex and already carry the HPV virus.

By the way, your "choice" to not get the HPV vaccine is fine, until you get cervical cancer and my insurance rates go up because your cancer has to be treated. Same with any breast cancer you may get. Thanks loads.
I am 67 and married for 41 years. Wouldn't I be dead by now if I carried that virus from my younger years? Make you insurance rates go up? Do you have Medicare?

My daughters are in their 30s and married, one to a woman. That vaccine was not invented when they were teens. CDC does not recommend the HPV vaccine to women over 26 years old.
 
Old 07-21-2015, 07:32 AM
 
Location: Marquette, Mich
1,022 posts, read 384,204 times
Reputation: 2322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
I am 67 and married for 41 years. Wouldn't I be dead by now if I carried that virus from my younger years? Make you insurance rates go up? Do you have Medicare?

My daughters are in their 30s and married, one to a woman. That vaccine was not invented when they were teens. CDC does not recommend the HPV vaccine to women over 26 years old.
Which is why it is given to preteens.

And, no. You wouldn't necessarily be dead. You could have HPV, which could cause genital warts or cancer or nothing.

People refusing to be vaccinated can cause a chain of events that affect public health. The more unvaccinated, the more impact that can have. And those that don't carry insurance that eventually need treatment for something drive up health care costs. And those that are insured that refuse vaccination that will eventually need treatment for something drive up rates. It's pretty simple. And true, whether acknowledged or not.

Head-slap-emoji indeed.
 
Old 07-21-2015, 08:03 AM
 
Location: Marquette, Mich
1,022 posts, read 384,204 times
Reputation: 2322
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
No I'm not.. You have "faith" and a "belief" that vaccines are good and they work. The evidence is studies with bias. I set up many labs in college. I watched the students. They "tweaked" the results to reach a conclusion based on the given hypothesis. You choose to "believe" the vaccine works and is safe by "faith."
Ok so look at these stats:
Babies who follow the CDC immunization schedule are injected with nearly 5000mcg of
aluminum by 18 months of age.
Even back in the early 1900's they knew that aluminum was a neurotoxin.

"When aluminum is experimentally introduced to the central nervous system, several neurotoxic effects are observed:i.e. neurofibrillary changes, behavioral and cognitive deficits and enzymatic and neurotransmitter changes, as well as certain types of epileptic seizures."
Aluminum neurotoxicity in mammals - Springer
Seizures and syncope are common in HPV vaccine adverse reactions. Why? Because a series of three shots contains over 1500 mcg of aluminum in just a few months.

The safety level of aluminum is 4 to 5mcg per kilogram of body weight per day according to the FDA yet a child could receive shots with over 250 mcg of aluminum in it's first day of life with the Hep B shot. Most infants are born around 8lbs so what... 250 mcg is 100x above the toxicity levels that the body can handle?
That is poisoning our kids.


I live in WA and the woman is, to this day, unnamed and unidentified. Her illness and it's relationship with Measles is still unknown. The fact that it happened in April but was reported months later is suspect. You don't find that suspect? Let's apply our critical thinking skills here. WA reported the last case of measles in mid April yet she somehow got it after that time? From whom? Why isn't the WA DOH being more transparent? Why have the relatives of this woman not spoken out in support of vaccines? You would think they would but.... *crickets*
Oh, my. Lets see...where to start...

I am telling you "faith" in the unknown, unprovable, not-verifiable is not the same as a "faith" born of a reliance on information, fact, and scientific analysis. I cannot conduct empirical testing on every vaccine myself, so I have to rely on those that have. In analyzing data, I come to conclusions based on fact. That is not the type of "faith" that if I let the air around me boost my immune system naturally, stay sufficiently hydrated, and eat kale & blueberries I will develop immunity to diseases naturally, and that all of the "poisons" in vaccines are killing us. You are assigning a definition of "faith" and "belief" to me that I am telling you is not the same as that. It is not. You can tell me once again that it is, but you will still be wrong.

Syncope is a fancy word for fainting. For several years, I fainted every time I tried to donate blood, and a good friend of mine faints every time she has to have blood drawn. It happens to some people, and seems especially prevalent in teens. Fainting is NOT considered a serious side effect of HPV vaccinations, by the way.

Do you know that the body DOES expel aluminum? Not every mcg of aluminum taken in stays in the body. In fact, I believe that about half of the aluminum in the Hep B vaccine is gone after a day. I could look that up for everyone, but let's be frank--many of you won't believe it anyway.

As far as the woman in WA, why on earth would that make me suspicious. "Months" since April? It's July. That's not that long.The info was released on July 2. So if the last known active case of measles in WA was "late April" and the DOH released the statement on July 2, "months later means May & June? Pfft. That's not a long time. And the family is under no obligation to release her identity. Would it really convince you if you knew her name? Saw her grieving family on TV?

Good news, everyone! It's still safe to wear our tinfoil hats! Just don't eat them...
 
Old 07-21-2015, 08:34 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,498 posts, read 26,102,510 times
Reputation: 26471
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
You think it is folly to "trust" your immune system but you "trust" vaccines. How is that any different? You say we shouldn't use faith in the equation... yet you have "faith" that vaccines will protect you. Many vaccinated children and adults get the diseases they are vaccinated against. Sometimes faith and trust doesn't work and sometimes medicine and science fails.
Vaccines work more often than they fail, and they work whether anyone has "faith" in them or not. Expose a group of unvaccinated people to vaccine preventable diseases and most will get sick. Expose a group of vaccinated people and most will not.

Quote:
The FACT is that vaccines contain know poisons and are given to perfectly healthy people... what more could be a compelling reason for concern from some people? Unvaccinated children have to be exposed to a disease before they are dangerous to those who cannot vaccinate. Therefore, they are harmless to the average person. We are talking about a small percentage of people who don't vaccinate coming in contact with a small percentage of people who can't. The odds are...
The problem is that the percentage of people who do not vaccinate is getting larger, and people who do not vaccinate like to associate with others who do not vaccinate. That means in some areas of the country the odds of an unvaccinated person catching something and infecting a lot of people is very high.

Quote:
Take the woman in Washington who died of pneumonia allegedly from an unvaccinated kid. Faceless, nameless person... get "preventable" disease... have complications... is immune compromised... exposed weeks earlier... news report comes out months later just days after CA bill passes... Smells Fishy to me.
Any time one of these diseases harms someone permanently (and death is permanent, in case you did not know), the anti-vax approach is to deny it happens and insist it must be some kind of conspiracy. For goodness' sake, the family just wanted to have some privacy while they grieve. This death was not "preventable", it was preventable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
No I'm not.. You have "faith" and a "belief" that vaccines are good and they work. The evidence is studies with bias. I set up many labs in college. I watched the students. They "tweaked" the results to reach a conclusion based on the given hypothesis. You choose to"believe" the vaccine works and is safe by "faith."
If you believe vaccine studies are biased, you need to give an example of a biased study and explain why it is biased. Just one. Your saying "The evidence is studies with bias" does not make it true.

Quote:
Ok so look at these stats:
Babies who follow the CDC immunization schedule are injected with nearly 5000mcg of aluminum by 18 months of age.
Even back in the early 1900's they knew that aluminum was a neurotoxin.
I have already shown you the evidence that the small amount of aluminum in vaccines is not dangerous. Anyone with a solid background in science should be able to understand it. If you cannot, then I have question your scientific education. Sorry, I'll go with the evidence, not your opinion unsupported by facts.

Quote:
"When aluminum is experimentally introduced to the central nervous system, several neurotoxic effects are observed:i.e. neurofibrillary changes, behavioral and cognitive deficits and enzymatic and neurotransmitter changes, as well as certain types of epileptic seizures."

Aluminum neurotoxicity in mammals - Springer
You did not read all of that abstract, did you?

"Our electron microprobe analysis studies have not found the levels of aluminum or silicon in either the neurofibrillary tangles or amyloid cores reported elsewhere, nor have the levels of aluminum been elevated in approximately one half of the tangles and plaque cores examined to date."

The authors, who were trying to replicate the work of others on aluminum and Alzheimer's disease, did not find elevated levels of aluminum in the brain.

You are exposed to more aluminum from the environment than from vaccines. Aluminum from vaccines is like a drop in an ocean. It's inconsequential.

Quote:
Seizures and syncope are common in HPV vaccine adverse reactions. Why? Because a series of three shots contains over 1500 mcg of aluminum in just a few months.
Syncope is common; seizures are not. Simple hyperventilation can cause spasms of muscles that look like seizures to untrained people.

Symptoms of syncope:

Vasovagal syncope Symptoms - Mayo Clinic




"During a vasovagal syncope episode, bystanders may notice:
  • Jerky, abnormal movements"
That is just a common, old fashioned fainting spell.

Kids faint sometimes when they get shots. I know a teen who fainted just from getting a GYN exam.


Quote:
The safety level of aluminum is 4 to 5mcg per kilogram of body weight per day according to the FDA yet a child could receive shots with over 250 mcg of aluminum in it's first day of life with the Hep B shot. Most infants are born around 8lbs so what... 250 mcg is 100x above the toxicity levels that the body can handle?

That is poisoning our kids.
Study Reports Aluminum in Vaccines Poses Extremely Low Risk to Infants
Updated aluminum pharmacokinetics following infant exposures through diet and vaccination. - PubMed - NCBI

"Aluminum is found naturally in large quantities in the environment, often consumed through drinking water or ingesting certain foods, such as infant formula. Using the updated parameters, the authors found that the body burden of aluminum from vaccines and diet throughout an infant’s first year of life is significantly less than the corresponding safe body burden of aluminum, based on the minimal risk levels established by the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry."

http://www.chop.edu/centers-programs...m#.Va5KjqM5Iic

"The aluminum contained in vaccines is similar to that found in a liter (about 1 quart or 32 fluid ounces) of infant formula. While infants receive about 4.4 milligrams* of aluminum in the first six months of life from vaccines, they receive more than that in their diet. Breast-fed infants ingest about 7 milligrams, formula-fed infants ingest about 38 milligrams, and infants who are fed soy formula ingest almost 117 milligrams of aluminum during the first six months of life."

Quote:
I live in WA and the woman is, to this day, unnamed and unidentified. Her illness and it's relationship with Measles is still unknown. The fact that it happened in April but was reported months later is suspect. You don't find that suspect? Let's apply our critical thinking skills here. WA reported the last case of measles in mid April yet she somehow got it after that time? From whom? Why isn't the WA DOH being more transparent? Why have the relatives of this woman not spoken out in support of vaccines? You would think they would but.... *crickets*
The exposure is known, occurred in April, and her doctors did not suspect measles because she had no typical symptoms of measles (which is typical when the patient has a compromised immune system). Autopsy confirmed she died from measles. It is the prerogative of the family to not have the patient identified. If we wish to speculate why they choose to remain silent, what if they are known to be anti-vaccine? That makes as much sense as your dire implications of conspiracy.

15-119-WA-MeaslesRelatedDeath :: Washington State Dept. of Health

"The woman was most likely exposed to measles at a local medical facility during a recent outbreak in Clallam County. She was there at the same time as a person who later developed a rash and was contagious for measles. The woman had several other health conditions and was on medications that contributed to a suppressed immune system. She didn’t have some of the common symptoms of measles such as a rash, so the infection wasn’t discovered until after her death. The cause of death was pneumonia due to measles."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
I am 67 and married for 41 years. Wouldn't I be dead by now if I carried that virus from my younger years? Make you insurance rates go up? Do you have Medicare?

My daughters are in their 30s and married, one to a woman. That vaccine was not invented when they were teens. CDC does not recommend the HPV vaccine to women over 26 years old.
No, not everyone who has HPV gets cancer from it. However, 99.7% of women with cervical cancer have it due to HPV.

http://www.cancer.org/acs/groups/cid...002780-pdf.pdf

What about women older than 26? Should they get one of
the vaccines


Women over age 26 were not included in the first studies that were done to test the

vaccines. This means the FDA could not approve the vaccines for this age group. Since

that time, the use of Gardasil in women between 27 and 45 has been studied. It was found

that the vaccine helped protect against infection and disease from the HPV types

contained in the vaccine. It only helped the women who weren’t infected with those HPV

types before vaccination. Because the risk of infection and disease from HPV is low in

this age group, the vaccine didn’t seem to benefit many women. When the FDA reviewed

the data, it concluded that the vaccine didn’t help enough women to justify giving it to all

women up to age 45.


Women over 26 may discuss the vaccine with their doctors. Insurance coverage may be an issue.
 
Old 07-21-2015, 09:28 AM
 
5,644 posts, read 3,196,510 times
Reputation: 6628
Quote:
Originally Posted by leebeemi View Post
Which is why it is given to preteens.

And, no. You wouldn't necessarily be dead. You could have HPV, which could cause genital warts or cancer or nothing.

People refusing to be vaccinated can cause a chain of events that affect public health. The more unvaccinated, the more impact that can have. And those that don't carry insurance that eventually need treatment for something drive up health care costs. And those that are insured that refuse vaccination that will eventually need treatment for something drive up rates. It's pretty simple. And true, whether acknowledged or not.

Head-slap-emoji indeed.
What did you not understand? They do not give HPV vaccination to women over 26 years old. Actually, doctors are now starting to not recommend Pap tests for women over 65. This is not a matter of one size fits all women.

I am going to assume that you are not old enough to be on Medicare. If you aren't, then I will not be driving up YOUR rates since I only have Original Medicare; no supplemental insurance. Government pays Medicare bills, not private insurance companies.

Stop giving "pat answers" which are irrelevant to what I posted. Enough. Anyone YOUNG ENOUGH to get a HPV vaccination can choose to do so. If they don't want it for their children or themselves, that should be their business too.
 
Old 07-21-2015, 09:59 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,498 posts, read 26,102,510 times
Reputation: 26471
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
The safety level of aluminum is 4 to 5mcg per kilogram of body weight per day according to the FDA yet a child could receive shots with over 250 mcg of aluminum in it's first day of life with the Hep B shot. Most infants are born around 8lbs so what... 250 mcg is 100x above the toxicity levels that the body can handle?
That is poisoning our kids.
It appears your figures, for which you never provided a source, have been based on "Dr. Bob" Sears' analysis in his book on vaccines.

Here is why "Dr. Bob" is wrong about aluminum (among all the other things he is wrong about).

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org...r-of-dr-sears/

"... he goes on to distort what we do know about aluminum toxicity into a rationale to fear our current vaccine supply and schedule. For instance, we know that aluminum has been blamed for producing neurotoxicity in some patients with renal failure on long-term dialysis, and in some extremely premature infants given prolonged courses of aluminum-containing intravenous nutritional solutions. But this is not comparable to the exposure of healthy infants to adjuvant-containing vaccines given intramuscularly on a few, discrete occurrences over a period of months. Similar to the way the safety data for methylmercury is often incorrectly applied to the ethylmercury in thimerosal (and incorrect inferences of toxicity made), Dr. Sears uses safety limits set for something else, and incorrectly applies them to the aluminum in vaccine adjuvants.

Dr. Sears uses the FDAs maximum permissible level (MPL) of aluminum for large volume bags of intravenous fluids given chronically to premature infants (25 g/L), and extrapolates it to adjuvant-containing vaccines. He also uses the number 5 g/kg/day as the amount of aluminum found to cause toxicity in some premature infants receiving intravenous feeding solutions that contain aluminum. What he doesnt mention is that the 25 g/L number comes from studies showing that this concentration produces no tissue aluminum loading, and that it was chosen to allow room for other exposures. In fact, it is estimated that the aluminum in these intravenous feeding solutions accounts for only 10-15% of the total parenteral aluminum intake per kg body weight that premature infants receive in a given day while in intensive care. The number was set low to leave room for the other sources of parenteral aluminum these infants receive. Still, Dr. Sears uses this number as his standard against which he compares the aluminum content of vaccines. This is misleading for a number of reasons. First, the 25 g/L MPL for parenteral feeding bags says nothing about the maximum amount of aluminum that can be safely injected. This is obvious as the number is expressed as a concentration, not as an absolute amount of aluminum. The average premature infant would likely receive 100 ml/kg/day of solution, and therefore roughly 2.5-5 g per day of aluminum from this source. Again, accounting for only about 10-15% of the parenteral aluminum the infant would receive in a given day. Dr. Sears does acknowledge that the number isnt a maximum permissible amount of aluminum for injection, but he uses it anyway stating, in essence, that its all weve got. "

"But his use of the FDA limits for intravenous feeding solutions is misleading also because it ignores the difference between intravenous and intramuscular or subcutaneous injection of aluminum, as in the case of vaccines. In fact there is evidence, which Dr. Sears must have missed in his exhaustive review of the literature, that the aluminum from vaccines behaves differently than intravenously administered aluminum, and that the body burden of aluminum from vaccines is not so concerning when placed in the context of the background body burden of aluminum."

A detailed discussion of Dr. Bob's factual inaccuracies about aluminum is at the link.
 
Old 07-21-2015, 10:10 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,386,559 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by leebeemi View Post
Which is why it is given to preteens.

And, no. You wouldn't necessarily be dead. You could have HPV, which could cause genital warts or cancer or nothing.

People refusing to be vaccinated can cause a chain of events that affect public health. The more unvaccinated, the more impact that can have. And those that don't carry insurance that eventually need treatment for something drive up health care costs. And those that are insured that refuse vaccination that will eventually need treatment for something drive up rates. It's pretty simple. And true, whether acknowledged or not.

Head-slap-emoji indeed.
So you picket fast food places too? After all, good chance you are going to need more medical care from eating that crap. I think the unvaccinated few are the least of your health care worries.
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