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Old 07-22-2015, 08:02 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
23,273 posts, read 28,076,984 times
Reputation: 28731

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Pandemic Flu History | Flu.gov

Is this "junk science" from Dr. Mercola or Dr. Jenny? Other than the 1918/1919, I was alive for all the rest of them, and probably had them.

Read what Flu.gov. has to say about people being born before these dates and having immunity from previous outbreaks. Flu strains change THAT much so a person's immune system from having had them cannot recognize the main strain and fight it off? They give one example where people under 23 had the most outbreaks because they had never been exposed before.

Apparently Flu.Gov. thinks that may be be case, but of course that must be hush, hush for it will not sell Flu Shots, especially to "vulnerable immune compromised elderly" people who were exposed to these flu outbreaks in their younger years.
Infection with one flu strain will not make you immune to all of them. I believe you said earlier that you have had flu many times, did you not? Yes, flu strains do change that much.

If your immune system is compromised, all bets are off. Even previous vaccination may not protect you, as we see with the woman who recently died from measles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
LOL I rarely disagree with you too however, listed in the symptoms of the flu is indeed diarrhea even though it is more common in kids. I suspect that the diarrhea was more of a complication than an original symptom.

I still think that my immune system was preoccupied which made the flu worse.
We know, it had to be the flu vaccine! Of course - it's always the vaccine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
If this is implemented, who is to say if a homeschool family isn't fined, jailed, or held down to be forcefully vaccinated.
If it hasn't happened in Mississippi and W. Virginia, I doubt it will happen in California. I am all for the fine, though. That would be a great idea. Australia has set a precedent with financial penalties for not vaccinating.

 
Old 07-22-2015, 08:23 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,645,837 times
Reputation: 1694
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
Just because someone has been vaccinated doesn't mean they are completely protected. Babies in utero, small babies too young to get vaccines and people whose immune systems have been compromised, like cancer and transplant patients, even those who have been vaccinated, can still get a disease.

When you get vaccinated, you're protecting those people, not just the ones who choose not to get vaccinated.

We're arguing now about a woman in Washington state who had been vaccinated, but had her immune system compromised, and she was exposed to measles at a medical clinic where the measles patient was. The woman died of measles.

She shouldn't have and there's no excuse for someone to pass on a disease they should have vaccinated for to begin with.

You asked a legit question and that's the answer.
Yet you just said that a vaccinated person could have no protection...
 
Old 07-22-2015, 08:40 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,645,837 times
Reputation: 1694
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
...snip...
If it hasn't happened in Mississippi and W. Virginia, I doubt it will happen in California. I am all for the fine, though. That would be a great idea. Australia has set a precedent with financial penalties for not vaccinating.
Mississippi has very easy homeschooling laws. "Other than the Certificate of Enrollment, there are no current Mississippi state laws concerning requirements for home schooling programs." "Compulsory attendance – Between 6 and 17 years of age.
No educational requirements for parents.
No standardized testing.
No reporting procedure."
Source
Even WA is more strict than that!

W. Virginia is more like WA except that WA parents have to have some college:
"Compulsory attendance– Begins with the school year in which the sixth birthday is reached prior to September 1 of such year or upon enrolling in a publicly supported kindergarten program and, subject to subdivision (3) of this subsection, continues to the sixteenth birthday or for as long as the student continues to be enrolled in a school system after the sixteenth birthday.
Parent Qualifications – High School Diploma or GED
Testing – In West Virginia you can test or submit a portfolio or negotiate with your county superintendent to use some other type of academic assessment. Official interpretation of assessment laws.
Record Keeping – Submit an outline of a plan of instruction.
Assistance – Superintendent must supply materials if requested. Student may attend school classes part-time."
Source
CA laws?
"Homeschooling families have four legal options for doing so:
  1. Establishing your own home-based private school,
  2. Enrolling in a private school that offers independent study (PSP)
  3. Using a public school independent study program (ISP) or charter school that caters to homeschoolers, or
  4. If you have a credential, using the tutorial option."
Source

Credentials mean you have to have a teaching degree. Plus the law (SB277) applies to the first 2 as being private schools and may include charter schools as well as public school ISP because of the labels. Number 4 is not an option for 99% of homeschoolers because the parent has to have a teaching degree.

So tell me... what parent can avoid vaccinating their kid in CA?

PS... Australia took away personal and religious exemptions but I see no evidence of a fee/fine. You have a link?
 
Old 07-22-2015, 08:49 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,072 posts, read 10,271,083 times
Reputation: 20103
Maybe 355 pages of comments is enough on this topic until the referendum is at hand.

It's getting to be boring repetition and no one is changing anyone's mind.

Just sayin'.

Last edited by phetaroi; 07-22-2015 at 09:40 PM..
 
Old 07-22-2015, 09:19 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
23,273 posts, read 28,076,984 times
Reputation: 28731
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Yet you just said that a vaccinated person could have no protection...
What he said was that someone who has been vaccinated but who develops immune compromise may no longer be protected by vaccinations he received, like the woman in Washington. Also, some people just do not respond to some vaccines and are not protected, though for most vaccines that is a small percentage of those who receive it. That is the reason that even people who are vaccinated want every healthy person to be vaccinated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
So tell me... what parent can avoid vaccinating their kid in CA?
It looks like there are plenty of options to me.

Quote:
PS... Australia took away personal and religious exemptions but I see no evidence of a fee/fine. You have a link?
No Cookies | dailytelegraph.com.au

"Prime Minister Tony *Abbott and Social Services Minister Scott Morrison will today announce the historic reforms, which mean parents who fail to immunise their children will no longer be paid the $200-a-week childcare benefit, the $7500-a-year childcare rebate or the $726 Family Tax Benefit A annual supplement.

The combined childcare and welfare payments at risk could amount to up to $30,000 a year for a family with two young children. The changes will come into effect from January 1, 2016."

Note that "welfare" does not mean what it does in the US.
 
Old 07-22-2015, 09:32 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,645,837 times
Reputation: 1694
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
What he said was that someone who has been vaccinated but who develops immune compromise may no longer be protected by vaccinations he received, like the woman in Washington. Also, some people just do not respond to some vaccines and are not protected, though for most vaccines that is a small percentage of those who receive it. That is the reason that even people who are vaccinated want every healthy person to be vaccinated.
Again... you can take all steps to be vaccinated according to the schedule and yet still be susceptible to the disease. Also.. the woman in WA is still not identified. It's a ruse. There is no proof the woman even exists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
It looks like there are plenty of options to me.
What options for CA residents? Vaccinate or get a teaching degree? Vaccinate or don't get an education? Vaccinate or go to truancy court? What options are there in CA?
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
No Cookies | dailytelegraph.com.au

"Prime Minister Tony *Abbott and Social Services Minister Scott Morrison will today announce the historic reforms, which mean parents who fail to immunise their children will no longer be paid the $200-a-week childcare benefit, the $7500-a-year childcare rebate or the $726 Family Tax Benefit A annual supplement.

The combined childcare and welfare payments at risk could amount to up to $30,000 a year for a family with two young children. The changes will come into effect from January 1, 2016."

Note that "welfare" does not mean what it does in the US.
"Failure to immunise" [sic]??? What if I choose to immunize my child with the actual disease and they have it but they did not get a vaccine? Then what? Do they have to prove they are immune? How? Scientists realize that antibody studies don't predict immunity. Many patients who are unable to produce antibodies are immune to certain diseases.

What then? We force vaccinations on immune individuals?
 
Old 07-22-2015, 10:46 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
23,273 posts, read 28,076,984 times
Reputation: 28731
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Again... you can take all steps to be vaccinated according to the schedule and yet still be susceptible to the disease.
But the risk of not being immune is small with most vaccines. Most vaccinated people are immune. For someone who claims to be a scientist, you apparently have absolutely no understanding of how to assess risk when it comes to vaccines and the diseases they prevent.

Quote:
Also.. the woman in WA is still not identified. It's a ruse. There is no proof the woman even exists.
That her family chooses not to identify her means she does not exist? That is very likely the craziest thing you have said here.

15-119-WA-MeaslesRelatedDeath :: Washington State Dept. of Health

From the Washington State Department of Health:

"The death of a Clallam County woman this spring was due to an undetected measles infection that was discovered at autopsy.

The woman was most likely exposed to measles at a local medical facility during a recent outbreak in Clallam County. She was there at the same time as a person who later developed a rash and was contagious for measles. The woman had several other health conditions and was on medications that contributed to a suppressed immune system. She didn’t have some of the common symptoms of measles such as a rash, so the infection wasn’t discovered until after her death. The cause of death was pneumonia due to measles.

This tragic situation illustrates the importance of immunizing as many people as possible to provide a high level of community protection against measles. People with compromised immune systems often cannot be vaccinated against measles. Even when vaccinated, they may not have a good immune response when exposed to disease; they may be especially vulnerable to disease outbreaks. Public health officials recommend that everyone who is eligible for the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine get vaccinated so they can help protect themselves, their families, and the vulnerable people in their community."

I hardly doubt the Washington State Department of Health would lie about her. It knows her name (and where she was exposed to measles) even if we do not.

Quote:
What options for CA residents? Vaccinate or get a teaching degree? Vaccinate or don't get an education? Vaccinate or go to truancy court? What options are there in CA?
What schools and parents need to know about the new vaccination law | EdSource

"Parents who do not want to vaccinate will have two options for their kindergartners and seventh graders starting in fall 2016: obtain a medical exemption to vaccinations or enroll in homeschooling or independent study."

"According to the California Homeschool Network, parents who wish to homeschool have four options:

The first is to establish their own private home school by filing a private school affidavit. Parents are free to collaborate with other homeschools. Homeschools are required to teach California mandated subject areas, but have latitude as to when and how such subjects are taught.

The second option is to join another private home school and become a “satellite” home school.

Third, parents may enroll in a district or charter public school that offers independent study. The student receives assignments from a teacher but fulfills most of the work independently.

The fourth option is to homeschool by hiring a credentialed tutor."

Quote:
"Failure to immunise" [sic]??? What if I choose to immunize my child with the actual disease and they have it but they did not get a vaccine? Then what? Do they have to prove they are immune? How? Scientists realize that antibody studies don't predict immunity. Many patients who are unable to produce antibodies are immune to certain diseases.

What then? We force vaccinations on immune individuals?
I do not know why you used "[sic]" after "immunise". The quote is from an Australian source. That is the way the word is spelled in Australia.

The word is being used as a synonym for vaccination.

Immunize | Definition of immunize by Merriam-Webster

"immunize:
verb im·mu·nize \ˈi-myə-ˌnīz\
to give (someone) a vaccine to prevent infection by a disease"

All they have to do is prove the vaccines have been given. Antibody titers are presumptive evidence of immunity. Someone with an undetectable titer would need a booster as a minimum, and the pattern of rise in antibodies after a booster can help determine whether the person was indeed already immune.

http://www.bloodtiters.com/

Not many people who produce antibodies are not immune, and few immune people fail to make antibodies. The vast majority of people who are immune to a diseases - by being infected or by being given a vaccine -are immune. You are trying to make it sound as if there are large numbers of people for whom antibody titers would not reveal the status of immunity. That is not true.
 
Old 07-22-2015, 10:48 PM
 
625 posts, read 468,771 times
Reputation: 1729
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juram View Post
I was actually wondering this myself.
Wow, several of your posts border on book-length.
 
Old 07-22-2015, 11:42 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,645,837 times
Reputation: 1694
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
But the risk of not being immune is small with most vaccines. Most vaccinated people are immune. For someone who claims to be a scientist, you apparently have absolutely no understanding of how to assess risk when it comes to vaccines and the diseases they prevent.
I already told you that my argument is that there is concern and vaccination should be a choice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
That her family chooses not to identify her means she does not exist? That is very likely the craziest thing you have said here.

15-119-WA-MeaslesRelatedDeath :: Washington State Dept. of Health

From the Washington State Department of Health:

"The death of a Clallam County woman this spring was due to an undetected measles infection that was discovered at autopsy.

The woman was most likely exposed to measles at a local medical facility during a recent outbreak in Clallam County. She was there at the same time as a person who later developed a rash and was contagious for measles. The woman had several other health conditions and was on medications that contributed to a suppressed immune system. She didn’t have some of the common symptoms of measles such as a rash, so the infection wasn’t discovered until after her death. The cause of death was pneumonia due to measles.

This tragic situation illustrates the importance of immunizing as many people as possible to provide a high level of community protection against measles. People with compromised immune systems often cannot be vaccinated against measles. Even when vaccinated, they may not have a good immune response when exposed to disease; they may be especially vulnerable to disease outbreaks. Public health officials recommend that everyone who is eligible for the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine get vaccinated so they can help protect themselves, their families, and the vulnerable people in their community."

I hardly doubt the Washington State Department of Health would lie about her. It knows her name (and where she was exposed to measles) even if we do not.
The reason they don't want to disclose is because... why? It's suspect. The woman is unnamed and supposedly got measles from some unnamed unvaccinated source... and the family doesn't call for all people to be vaccinated? Still sounds fishy to me. If we don't have a positive ID then there is a chance that the woman is fictional. IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
What schools and parents need to know about the new vaccination law | EdSource

"Parents who do not want to vaccinate will have two options for their kindergartners and seventh graders starting in fall 2016: obtain a medical exemption to vaccinations or enroll in homeschooling or independent study."

"According to the California Homeschool Network, parents who wish to homeschool have four options:

The first is to establish their own private home school by filing a private school affidavit. Parents are free to collaborate with other homeschools. Homeschools are required to teach California mandated subject areas, but have latitude as to when and how such subjects are taught.

The second option is to join another private home school and become a “satellite” home school.

Third, parents may enroll in a district or charter public school that offers independent study. The student receives assignments from a teacher but fulfills most of the work independently.

The fourth option is to homeschool by hiring a credentialed tutor."
Yet if you read the bill, it includes public and private school... this leaves hiring a credentialed tutor... um... a teacher to homeschool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
I do not know why you used "[sic]" after "immunise". The quote is from an Australian source. That is the way the word is spelled in Australia.
I added the [sic] because I spell it differently. Meaning that it is not my spelling but theirs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
The word is being used as a synonym for vaccination.

Immunize | Definition of immunize by Merriam-Webster

"immunize:verb im·mu·nize \ˈi-myə-ˌnīz\
to give (someone) a vaccine to prevent infection by a disease"
Actually the definition of immunization is: "
the fact or process of becoming immune, as against a disease."
Being vaccinated does not mean being immune. You and others have said so. Some who are vaccinated are not immune because the vaccine is not 100% effective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
All they have to do is prove the vaccines have been given. Antibody titers are presumptive evidence of immunity. Someone with an undetectable titer would need a booster as a minimum, and the pattern of rise in antibodies after a booster can help determine whether the person was indeed already immune.

http://www.bloodtiters.com/

Not many people who produce antibodies are not immune, and few immune people fail to make antibodies. The vast majority of people who are immune to a diseases - by being infected or by being given a vaccine -are immune. You are trying to make it sound as if there are large numbers of people for whom antibody titers would not reveal the status of immunity. That is not true.
So my question was more about the actual disease. I had chicken pox but when I applied for a job at the local hospital they wanted to vaccinate against chicken pox. I had to prove my immunity by a titer which cost me $200... Why when I know I had the disease already. Should we have to prove immunity? Really?
 
Old 07-23-2015, 05:34 AM
 
6,296 posts, read 3,547,517 times
Reputation: 7184
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
Good for you. I'm alive too, but I had pneumonia from the 1958 Hong Kong flu pandemic. That cost my parents a lot of money and worry. Consider us "the lucky ones".

You are aware, of course, that the swine flu that went around in 2009 killed over 12,000 people in the US, many of them children.

You seriously don't think 50 million people were killed by the 1918 flu? You think the rest of it is junk science? Let me tell you, that's akin to saying the Holocaust never happened. Because those flus did happen. Those people did die. If you want to deny that, ....just....wow.
I not going to post the links again, but the White House did declare a National State of Emergency in 2009. So what happened? Nothing. There were no forced vaccinations for that Pandemic.

Do you think government should have forced flu shots on everyone in 2009? Do you think that would have saved those 12,000 people?
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