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Old 07-25-2015, 06:45 PM
 
Location: Washington state
4,726 posts, read 2,327,421 times
Reputation: 13833

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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Then vaccines don't work after all since "you actually have to catch it" right?



You can't say that exposure to the disease without catching it doesn't cause immunity then say the exposure via vaccine without catching it does cause immunity.

Which is it? Exposure does or doesn't cause immunity?

Some diseases have a higher transmissibility rate than others. For measles, it's 90%. Some diseases are lower. So you stand a higher chance of getting some diseases than of getting others. So you can be exposed to a disease and sometimes not catch it. Exposure to someone sick is not going to give you immunity unless you become sick.

When you get a vaccine, either dead virus or modified live virus is used to cause a controlled reaction in your body to the vaccine, so that your immune system will recognize that disease in the event that you get exposed to the real thing and then you don't get sick. And yes, if you get the vaccine, all things going well, at that point you would be immune to the disease.


What you call 'exposure to the disease' when you are exposed to a sick person and when someone says you were 'exposed to the vaccine' when you get a shot are two different subtle meanings of the word 'exposure'.

I can give you a shot, and use the term "exposure" by saying "I've exposed you to the vaccine", and any normal person hearing that word 'vaccine' in conjunction with the word 'exposed' is going to know the exposure that is being talked about was about getting a shot, not that you were being exposed to a diseas by locking you in a room full of sick people.

It's simply two ways of using the same word, which is unique to the English language. As in, I can be exposed too long to the sun, which will give me a sunburn, or I can be exposed to learning, which should fuel my curiosity about the world. See how I've used the same word to convey two slightly different meanings?

See, this is the thing that makes me doubt you when you say you're a scientist. Under no circumstance should I have to explain something that elementary to anyone who has had even the most basic scientific training in any subject, let alone biology, as you say you have had.

Or are you just being deliberately obtuse? I'm not trying to be rude because I'd really like to know. If you don't understand something, that's more forgivable than just playing stupid.

 
Old 07-25-2015, 07:23 PM
 
Location: Washington state
4,726 posts, read 2,327,421 times
Reputation: 13833
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
I suppose then she is saying that all the "old folks" who lived before the MMR vaccine came out, but never actually caught measles themselves despite being exposed to it all around them, are not really immune to measles?
And she would be correct.

Quote:

Guess those people must be vaccinated too? Very least PROVE your immunity by a titer!!!!! Cannot hurt to get vaccinated to measles even if you are 60, 70, or 80 years old if you never actually had the disease as a child?
Absolutely they should be vaccinated, especially now more than ever, with the number of parents who refuse to vaccinate their children. You know, some of these diseases are hard on kids and they can and will kill children, but they're absolutely nasty on adults. Same with Lassa fever. Small children recover, adults mostly die. Same with polio. Infants may not even get sick, older children become sick, and can be paralyzed or die.

If you've never seen an adult with chicken pox, you're in for a treat. You can get chicken pox in your throat, in the lining of your stomach, down your wind pipe, in your vagina. And older people have a harder time fighting off the infections that result from measles and other diseases, like pneumonia for instance. We lose 30 to 40 thousand people a year to flu and flu related illnesses. Do you see 40,000 people a year dying of the vaccine? No, you don't. Even if those older people recover from flu, they may have to be in a hospital for several days and here you are, wondering why Medicare costs are so high.

Besides, you can be sick and incubating measles, for example, for a week before you break out. Just think of all the kids that may be walking around incubating measles and exposing everyone to the disease. Measles is 90% transmissible. That means for every 10 people exposed to the disease, 9 will get it. Yeah, I'd get the vaccine if I hadn't had measles.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
I reserve my right as an adult to refuse to have my very own "personal care provider", free preventative medical treatment (including even Tetanus vax), to health insurance proved medical treatment when sick, or dying.
You better hope your kid never gets tetanus then. It's a one way trip to the morgue if he does. Tetanus is like rabies. Your kid won't get sick and recover. He'll get sick and die.




Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post

You want to keep repeating the immunology learned via CDC and vaccine manufacturers?
Yes, because the science is proven. What you're doing now by denying the science is basically like telling us we're all mistaken because the world is really flat. And no one with a lick of sense believes that. But basically, by denying the science, that's the theory you're pushing.
Quote:


There have been cases of HIV in newborns that even multiplied but was eliminated and later testing showed no infection. V6. No 3 - Natural resistance to HIV/AIDS
And there have been cases, one or maybe two if my memory serves me right, of people who have spontaneously recovered from rabies without receiving the rabies shot. Are you telling me that if your child gets bitten by a confirmed rabid animal, on the basis of just one or two people people recovering without the vaccine and everyone else dying, that you would deny the vaccine to your child? You think your child is going to be the third miracle or something?

When it comes to HIV, are you talking about the one girl in France? Sorry, I don't read your links because usually they're on the order of how I found clean living and changed my points and plugs.

And you do know there are different strains of HIV, right? There is one in Africa that kills much faster than the strain we have here in the US. That particular HIV strain infects someone, turns into AIDS, and kills its host within several years, unlike the ten or 15 years we see here in the US. Just thought you should know.
 
Old 07-25-2015, 08:18 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,581 posts, read 26,233,109 times
Reputation: 26643
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
... because I don't really care what the "science" is either way.
What you are admitting with this post is that anything you say about vaccines is based on totally uninformed opinion and worthless.

You are not only anti-vax, you are anti-science. Just back away from the keyboard, throw your car keys away, turn off the air conditioning, and go live in a cave far from civilization.
 
Old 07-25-2015, 11:24 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,402,797 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Asymptomatic infection definition - MedicineNet - Health and Medical Information Produced by Doctors

"Asymptomatic infection: An infection without symptoms. Also known as inapparent or subclinical infection."

Aren't you embarrassed to be arguing about a definition that can be confirmed at any of thousands of sources? An asymptomatic infection is an infection. It is just not causing symptoms.

It is possible to produce antibodies and not eliminate the pathogen. That is exactly what happens with HIV.

I learned about immunology in college and undergraduate school. Those courses enable me to understand articles about vaccines and information from the CDC.
So an infection without symptoms is an infection (with known symptoms) that doesn't cause symptoms? So it isn't an infection... because there are no symptoms to which the infection should have.
Which is it... Does an infection cause symptoms or not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
No, dear heart, if the organism is present in the body an infection has occurred. It may or may not cause symptoms, and asymptomatic infections can last a long time. Typhoid is a good example of that.
No... dear heart. An infection means that symptoms are present. If there are no symptoms then infection has not taken place. The immune system has eliminated the source of the pathogen and infection was subverted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Some people do indeed have natural resistance to HIV. Their cells lack the protein receptors HIV needs to invade cells. They never become infected.

There was some hope that aggressive treatment of HIV in newborns might prevent infection, however, the initial case that raised that possibility relapsed. Others have had long term remissions of HIV after stopping treatment, but eventually relapsed.

All of those people were infected, however.
The link I provided said that the newborns were never infected even though HIV had replicated. This means that you are not infected until you are symptomatic. HIV is dormant until it becomes (symptomatic) AIDS. There is no harm in HIV. UNTIL it becomes AIDS (symptomatic).

Should I say that again so you can understand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Most vacccines do produce long term immunity.
No they don't. Most vaccines last from 1-10 years. Look at the data.

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
No. Antibodies do not always indicate immunity. People can have antibodies to pertussis and get it again. People have antibodies to HIV and continue to be infected. Not all antibodies are neutralizing antibodies.

Virus neutralization by antibodies
So you are proving my point. A person can be immune without antibodies but the antibodies being present can mean active immunity. A person who is asymptomatic could (and does) present with antibodies yet they are not infectious. They could be immune or have a vaccine type immunity which wanes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
What you are describing is how the immune system fights an infection. An infection has to happen to trigger the process.
No.. an infection is when the pathogen is so numerous that the body cannot fight it properly and symptoms occur. If there are no symptoms then the infection did not occur.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Antidiphtheria Antibody Responses in Patients and Carriers of Corynebacterium diphtheriae in the Arkhangelsk Region of Russia

The study was performed during a diphtheria outbreak. Everyone who saw a doctor for a sore throat was cultured for diphtheria and all contacts of patients whose cultures were positive were also cultured.

Three groups were studied:

1. Those with diphtheria infection and diphtheria disease due to toxin production
2. Those who were infected with diphtheria infection but who also had another infection that probably caused the symptoms the patient had. These patients were called symptomatic carriers. They did not have the physical findings associated with diphtheria toxin production.
3. Those who were infected but had no symptoms. They got tested because they were contacts of someone who had symptoms. The were asymptomatic carriers.

All three groups were infected with diphtheria.

The asymptomatic carriers had the highest antibody titers when initially tested. That means that they were protected from having symptoms, but did not clear the infection.



They will not be immune if they were only exposed and never infected. Not every exposure results in an infection.
A study with 43 were thought to have diphtheria but only 15 were confirmed. The others were thought to be carriers or asymptomatic. All but one were found to have antibodies so upon exposure 42 out of 43 were found to be immune even though only 15 were infected..and your point is?

Last edited by katjonjj; 07-25-2015 at 11:32 PM..
 
Old 07-25-2015, 11:57 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,402,797 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
And she would be correct.

Absolutely they should be vaccinated, especially now more than ever, with the number of parents who refuse to vaccinate their children. You know, some of these diseases are hard on kids and they can and will kill children, but they're absolutely nasty on adults. Same with Lassa fever. Small children recover, adults mostly die. Same with polio. Infants may not even get sick, older children become sick, and can be paralyzed or die.

If you've never seen an adult with chicken pox, you're in for a treat. You can get chicken pox in your throat, in the lining of your stomach, down your wind pipe, in your vagina. And older people have a harder time fighting off the infections that result from measles and other diseases, like pneumonia for instance. We lose 30 to 40 thousand people a year to flu and flu related illnesses. Do you see 40,000 people a year dying of the vaccine? No, you don't. Even if those older people recover from flu, they may have to be in a hospital for several days and here you are, wondering why Medicare costs are so high.

Besides, you can be sick and incubating measles, for example, for a week before you break out. Just think of all the kids that may be walking around incubating measles and exposing everyone to the disease. Measles is 90% transmissible. That means for every 10 people exposed to the disease, 9 will get it. Yeah, I'd get the vaccine if I hadn't had measles.
Yet by vaccinating kids we foist the disease upon adults. Really nice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
You better hope your kid never gets tetanus then. It's a one way trip to the morgue if he does. Tetanus is like rabies. Your kid won't get sick and recover. He'll get sick and die.
What are the chances of a kid getting tetanus or rabies? Can you give them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
Yes, because the science is proven. What you're doing now by denying the science is basically like telling us we're all mistaken because the world is really flat. And no one with a lick of sense believes that. But basically, by denying the science, that's the theory you're pushing.And there have been cases, one or maybe two if my memory serves me right, of people who have spontaneously recovered from rabies without receiving the rabies shot. Are you telling me that if your child gets bitten by a confirmed rabid animal, on the basis of just one or two people people recovering without the vaccine and everyone else dying, that you would deny the vaccine to your child? You think your child is going to be the third miracle or something?
You are presenting a strawman here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
When it comes to HIV, are you talking about the one girl in France? Sorry, I don't read your links because usually they're on the order of how I found clean living and changed my points and plugs.

And you do know there are different strains of HIV, right? There is one in Africa that kills much faster than the strain we have here in the US. That particular HIV strain infects someone, turns into AIDS, and kills its host within several years, unlike the ten or 15 years we see here in the US. Just thought you should know.
So you don't read information and so you don't know. OK... we get it.
 
Old 07-25-2015, 11:57 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,581 posts, read 26,233,109 times
Reputation: 26643
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
So an infection without symptoms is an infection (with known symptoms) that doesn't cause symptoms? So it isn't an infection... because there are no symptoms to which the infection should have.
Which is it... Does an infection cause symptoms or not?
An infection may or may not cause symptoms:

Infection definition - MedicineNet - Health and Medical Information Produced by Doctors

"Infection: The invasion and multiplication of microorganisms such as bacteria, viruses, and parasites that are not normally present within the body. An infection may cause no symptoms and be subclinical, or it may cause symptoms and be clinically apparent."


Quote:
No... dear heart. An infection means that symptoms are present. If there are no symptoms then infection has not taken place. The immune system has eliminated the source of the pathogen and infection was subverted.
An infection may or may not cause symptoms:

Infection definition - MedicineNet - Health and Medical Information Produced by Doctors

"Infection: The invasion and multiplication of microorganisms such as bacteria, viruses, and parasites that are not normally present within the body. An infection may cause no symptoms and be subclinical, or it may cause symptoms and be clinically apparent."

Quote:
The link I provided said that the newborns were never infected even though HIV had replicated. This means that you are not infected until you are symptomatic. HIV is dormant until it becomes (symptomatic) AIDS. There is no harm in HIV. UNTIL it becomes AIDS (symptomatic).

Should I say that again so you can understand?
If you have HIV in your body you have been infected with HIV, whether you have symptoms of AIDS or not.

Quote:
No they don't. Most vaccines last from 1-10 years. Look at the data.
Measles and Hepatitis B do not require boosters. Tetanus and diphtheria should be boosted every 10 years. Pertussis requires one adult booster, given as the Tdap. Most adults will never need to be boosted for mumps and rubella. Varicella vaccine protects for at least 20 years. That's as long as we have info on it.

The flu vaccine is the only one that has to be repeated annually.

So, no, Most vaccines do not last only one to ten years.

Quote:
So you are proving my point. A person can be immune without antibodies but the antibodies being present can mean active immunity. A person who is asymptomatic could (and does) present with antibodies yet they are not infectious. They could be immune or have a vaccine type immunity which wanes.
An infection will cause the immune system to make antibodies. The person may or may not be immune. An infected person may make antibodies but not clear the infection. If so, he can give the infection to someone else.

Quote:
No.. an infection is when the pathogen is so numerous that the body cannot fight it properly and symptoms occur. If there are no symptoms then the infection did not occur.
Infection definition - MedicineNet - Health and Medical Information Produced by Doctors

"Infection: The invasion and multiplication of microorganisms such as bacteria, viruses, and parasites that are not normally present within the body. An infection may cause no symptoms and be subclinical, or it may cause symptoms and be clinically apparent."

Quote:
A study with 43 were thought to have diphtheria but only 15 were confirmed. The others were thought to be carriers or asymptomatic. All but one where found to have antibodies so upon exposure 42 out of 43 were found to be immune even though only 15 were infected..and your point is?
No, all of the people in the study were infected with diphtheria organisms, proved by throat cultures.

Infection definition - MedicineNet - Health and Medical Information Produced by Doctors

"Infection: The invasion and multiplication of microorganisms such as bacteria, viruses, and parasites that are not normally present within the body. An infection may cause no symptoms and be subclinical, or it may cause symptoms and be clinically apparent."

You can get diphtheria more than once. The antibodies do not eliminate the organism from the body. Fortunately, it can be eradicated with antibiotics.
 
Old 07-26-2015, 12:10 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,581 posts, read 26,233,109 times
Reputation: 26643
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
What are the chances of a kid getting tetanus or rabies? Can you give them?
About 40,000 people in the US are treated for rabies exposure annually.

CDC - Surveillance of Tetanus - Chapter 16 - Vaccine Preventable Diseases

"A review of tetanus in U.S. children under age 15 years from 1992 through 2000 found that 11 of the 13 non-neonatal cases occurred in children who were unvaccinated because of religious or philosophic objections."

We do not see many tetanus infections in the US because the vaccination rate against it is so high.
 
Old 07-26-2015, 03:23 AM
 
2,442 posts, read 1,806,035 times
Reputation: 4644
Katonjj, you are mistaken and SuzyQ is correct in every post for the last three pages.

One small clarification: you don't need MMR boosters, but in people who seroconvert with the first vaccine, the second does provide a small boosting effect (in addition to seroconversion for those who didn't with the first).
 
Old 07-26-2015, 07:37 AM
 
Location: Marquette, Mich
1,025 posts, read 388,944 times
Reputation: 2333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
There are others who agree. For people who think like I do, others need to speak out to assure them that they are not alone. It is a freedom issue also. You do know that, don't you?

You need to understand that not all old people who "somehow" managed to survive your deadly diseases as children, push vaccinations from their own horrific experiences.

I have found many people my age go on sites and counter from their own childhood experiences what media and health professionals portray. Freedom of information. There is no freedom of information when only one view is allowed to speak.

I do care far more about the freedom of choice issue than the health issue. If you cannot control what medicine does to your own body, you have no freedom at all. That is a basic concept and was the reason for the Nuremberg Codes.
One big problem with this line of thought is not all people experience illness the way you did. When your "freedom" comes at the expense of others, we have a problem. So when "media and health professionals" talk about the fundamental seriousness of these diseases, countering that it isn't that bad (and your proof is your own experience) is ridiculous.
 
Old 07-26-2015, 09:58 AM
 
5,674 posts, read 3,217,069 times
Reputation: 6656
Quote:
Originally Posted by leebeemi View Post
One big problem with this line of thought is not all people experience illness the way you did. When your "freedom" comes at the expense of others, we have a problem. So when "media and health professionals" talk about the fundamental seriousness of these diseases, countering that it isn't that bad (and your proof is your own experience) is ridiculous.
You may not like it, but an adult has the right to refuse any and all medical treatment. Besides which, you will never know what adult has or hasn't had every single vaccination on the CDC list.

You simply get your own vaccinations to protect yourself. Then why would you care if the supermarket cashier, person sitting next to you at work or on a plane is fully vaccinated? That is something you will never ever know, and nothing you can do about it.
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