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Old 08-01-2015, 06:55 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,583 posts, read 26,233,109 times
Reputation: 26643

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
I meant exactly what I said. It's a pretty straight forward response to an incorrect statement. If you want to read more into it and argue with me when I tell you that you are then I suppose that's fine. Carry on.
Again you refuse to clarify what you mean and supply evidence to support your opinion. We understand. You have no evidence. Carry on.

Quote:
Regarding healthy children and the flu. It's extremely rare for them to suffer serious complications. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous. I wouldn't feed a healthy three month old supplements and herbal antivirals but I would eat them myself while breastfeeding my three month old.
Complications from flu are not extremely rare when we have already had 144 pediatric deaths from the disease this year. There may be more when the new season starts in a few weeks. That does not count seriously ill children who were hospitalized but survived.

What evidence do you have that you could eat anything that would treat flu in a breast feeding baby? What if your baby is so ill he cannot nurse?

Quote:
The blogs that you continually share are packed full of propaganda. People can decide for themselves what the goal of the authors are. My opinion based on their inflammatory, mocking language and incredibly biased information is that they are not just genuine posters concerned about health. But hey, if you feel that getting your information from blog posts makes you a top notch scientist and that in turn makes you feel superior then by all means, do that.
Please give an example of "biased information" in anything I have posted. Are some of the people I link to extremely sarcastic? Yes. But you know what? They do a fine job of demolishing anti-vaccine pseudoscientific garbage. The sarcasm derives from their ability to see right through the anti-vax nonsense.

In addition, I post information from tons of primary sources. The few primary sources you have used in general do not say what you think they say, such as your claim that the risk of an abnormal Pap smear is only 6%. You misinterpreted that figure, ignoring that the cumulative risk of having an abnormal pap is 20 to 25%, and ignore the recommendation in your own source to vaccinate against HPV.

I never claim to be a "top notch scientist." I do know how to read and interpret scientific articles, though, and how to judge the quality of those studies. The cumulative evidence in those articles is that vaccines are safe and effective. The flu vaccine is indeed less effective than most; we hope for a good match, and we take the protection we can get. Less effective does not mean worthless. The HPV vaccine is pushing 100% effective when given before the recipient has any sexual experience at all, and despite your reliance on internet stories, close surveillance for serious adverse effects from the HPV vaccine shows those are pushing zero.

Quote:
If I'm a "science denier" then you are a "science abuser". My discussion regarding HPV is relevant to this conversation surrounding mandates.
You deny the total burden of disease caused by HPV, deny its effectiveness, and use internet stories as your "science". Sounds like denial to me.

Quote:
Vaccine mandates are not needed. The number of people who choose not to vaccinate for everything on the schedule is small. Clearly, adding HPV to the list of mandates discredits the argument that the mandates are needed to protect vulnerable children in the classroom. This is not about health.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Even if teens are "vulnerable" how can one justify barring entrance to school without the vaccine? What is the reason for that? The unvaccinated for HPV teen is not putting your vaccinated child in danger as they sit next to one another in school. There is absolutely no reason why they cannot attend school with the HPV vaccine.
Mandates are needed because we have clusters of unvaccinated people that increase the risk of large outbreaks of vaccine preventable diseases.

The health authorities in Rhode Island have decided that the HPV vaccine is effective and safe and that the safety justifies including it on the schedule for their students.

Quote:
In the vast majority of cases, flu is not dangerous. The "bottom line" is not a strong reason for mandates.
In a significant number of cases influenza causes severe disease. Deaths are not rare. Flu is not dangerous ... until it is.

Quote:
We already have high rates of vaccination. Trying to catch everyone in the net is overkill.
There are areas in this country with vaccination rates lower than the poorest countries on the planet, largely due to parents who have the same philosophy that you do. Blame those parents for the mandates. The more you try to convince people not to vaccinate, the more you contribute to the problem.

As "Dr. Bob" Sears warns his patients, do not tell anyone else you do not vaccinate, because when others follow your lead herd immunity fails and you can no longer count on it to protect your child.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Potatooo View Post
Why does everyone like to completely deny the link between vaccines and autism? It's not just the wakefield study folks, there's thousands supports this theory. I have severe autism myself and I truly believe if I would not have been vaccinated I wouldn't have to suffer with this terrible condition.

Do the right thing and fight against government mandated vaccines!!
Thw weight of the evidence tells us that vaccines do not cause autism. Your brain just is wired differently. Blaming your condition on vaccines is counterproductive. You would do better finding someone to help you maximize your potential, because while autism can certainly cause problems, those with it often have gifts, too. Find your gifts and build on them.

 
Old 08-01-2015, 08:15 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,583 posts, read 26,233,109 times
Reputation: 26643
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Shall we also mandate things like breastfeeding? That would save lives and billions of dollars as well.

Since there is no financial incentive for any industry in more women breastfeeding, I doubt that will ever happen. Formula makers would lobby hard against it. In the case of vaccines, industry supports intervention with their products and has the money to lobby for new mandates. It's a very biased system when it comes to making healthcare decisions for all. Very biased. Lives and money only seem to be important in terms of saving when there is money to be gained.
If money were the motive, doctors would stand to earn more by discouraging breast feeding. More sick babies to take care of, right? Formula makers can lobby away; I see no mandates for formula feeding, so their lobbying must not be very effective.

American Academy of Pediatrics | What the AAP Is Doing To Support Families

Mark presented the figures in a recent post on how much money vaccines save in direct and indirect health care costs. Encouraging parents to vaccinate is not in a pediatrician's best interest financially. He could make more money treating sick kids with vaccine preventable diseases. Pediatricians are lucky to break even on what they charge for vaccines, for which the insurance companies reimburse as little as they can.


Quote:
Imagine if we banned cigarettes, alcohol and sugar? How many lives and how much money would be saved?
Comparing lifestyle diseases and infectious diseases is comparing apples and grapefruit. It is irrelevant to the current discussion. Not every public health issue requires mandates.

I would love to see cigarettes banned; with the advent of e-cigarettes that might even eventually come to pass since novice nicotine addicts may choose them instead of traditional cigarettes. That is off topic, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
So you are saying that when our vaccination rate goes up, our cases of measles will follow? That is what is happening in Sudan. Vaccinations rate has been steadily rising in Sudan and currently stands at 85%. Measles cases are rising too it seems.
You really do not understand herd immunity, do you? Hint, it's not vaccinated people who are getting measles. For measles, an 85% vaccination rate is far too low to provide herd immunity; it needs to be 95% or higher because measles is so infectious. Measles is not going up in Sudan because the vaccination rate is going up. That is a classic example that correlation is not causation. Measles is going up in Sudan because the vaccination rate is not yet high enough to prevent the measles virus from circulating.
 
Old 08-01-2015, 09:59 PM
 
Location: Earth
4,506 posts, read 5,270,850 times
Reputation: 4933
Key CDC Scientist Who Downplayed Vaccine-Autism Connection Is Now Fleeing from Justice | Global Research - Centre for Research on Globalization

CDC Caught Hiding Data Showing Mercury in Vaccines Linked to Autism | Global Research - Centre for Research on Globalization

Centers for Disease Control (CDC) Caught Inflating Flu Deaths to Sell More Vaccines | Global Research - Centre for Research on Globalization

It seems the science gods at the completely trustworthy and benevolent CDC might just have an agenda after all...
 
Old 08-01-2015, 10:26 PM
 
15,324 posts, read 16,907,542 times
Reputation: 15053
Actually, no. Thorsen was not the primary scientist on the study you are trying to debunk. The CDC did not fund and was not involved in these studies.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org...anish-studies/

The two actual studies
MMS: Error

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Quote:
The activities of the Danish Epidemiology Science Centre and the National Centre for Register-Based Research are funded by a grant from the Danish National Research Foundation. This study was supported by the Stanley Medical Research Institute. No funding sources were involved in the study design.
Quote:
thereís so much other evidence that is consistent with the Danish studies and similarly shows that neither the MMR nor thimerosal in vaccines is associated with autism.
Quote:
What AoA, Safeminds, and other denialists refuse to understand is that science is rarely, if ever, a matter of a scientific consensus being based on one study, two studies, or a handful of studies. A scientific consensus is based on examining all the evidence from all relevant studies, deciding which studies are most methodologically powerful, and then synthesizing it all into a conclusion. Contrast this to how the anti-vaccine movement treats its ďbrave maverick doctorsĒ like Andrew Wakefield, Mark Geier, Rashid Buttar, et al, and the difference between real science and anti-vaccine pseudoscience couldnít be clearer.
 
Old 08-01-2015, 10:42 PM
 
Location: Earth
4,506 posts, read 5,270,850 times
Reputation: 4933
The Vaccine Hoax is Over. Documents from UK reveal 30 Yeas of Cover-up | nsnbc international
 
Old 08-01-2015, 10:43 PM
 
8,547 posts, read 5,287,811 times
Reputation: 9120
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
If money were the motive, doctors would stand to earn more by discouraging breast feeding. More sick babies to take care of, right? Formula makers can lobby away; I see no mandates for formula feeding, so their lobbying must not be very effective.
Breastfeeding is not exactly something that is well supported in our culture. Most mothers formula feed. I'm not talking about formula feeding mandates. You either missed my point or are just trying to change the subject. The point being, there are a lot of health behaviors that we could promote or "mandate" in order to save billions of dollars in health costs and save lives. Yet the focus seems to be only on forcing vaccinations on people. Why is the focus on vaccines? Why the mandates in this area while other areas such as breastfeeding, banning unhealthy foods and vices are not?

Quote:
You really do not understand herd immunity, do you? Hint, it's not vaccinated people who are getting measles. For measles, an 85% vaccination rate is far too low to provide herd immunity; it needs to be 95% or higher because measles is so infectious. Measles is not going up in Sudan because the vaccination rate is going up. That is a classic example that correlation is not causation. Measles is going up in Sudan because the vaccination rate is not yet high enough to prevent the measles virus from circulating.
You really do not understand sarcasm, do you? The article showed measles cases rising in Sudan, a country that is also seeing rising rates of vaccination. Re-read the conversation in context and maybe you will get it.
 
Old 08-01-2015, 10:58 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,583 posts, read 26,233,109 times
Reputation: 26643
The Centre for Research on Globalization is a conspiracy website.

A paean to North Korea:

North Korea, a Land of Human Achievement, Love and Joy | Global Research - Centre for Research on Globalization

North Korea won the Korean War? Who knew?

Apparently the Centre supported Gaddafi, too.

You might want to vet your source better for information on vaccines.
 
Old 08-01-2015, 11:06 PM
 
15,324 posts, read 16,907,542 times
Reputation: 15053
The supposed scientist who requested the records was Lucija Tomljenovic

https://www.metabunk.org/debunked-lu...er-shaw.t2444/

Producing dubious science to undermine the trust in vaccines.

Lucija Tomljenovic ę Radio Freethinker

Quote:
But it also dawned on me how negligent Tomljenovic was in her science. Itís a damning condemnation on the University of British Columbia when their researchers are this misinformed. She showed a series of graphs to indicated how vaccines werenít effective at saving lives. What she did was show the death rates of diseases: polio, measles etc, and then when the vaccine was licensed and when it was released. What she didnít do, most likely on purpose since I canít imagine any scientist being so utterly incompetent, was combine various vaccines like MMR, which came out well after the original measles vaccine. We of course made this known and what a surprise, when taken into account the drop in cases of polio started to exponentially decline right when the original vaccine was released and not the updated combination version came out.
Quote:
Anti-vaxers typically see conspiracies everywhere. During her talk, Tomljenovic listed a bunch of reasons why anti-vax studies donít get published. What she neglected to say is that every one of those reasons is a legitimate objection to a study (in any science) the vast majority of studies donít get published for these reasons, which is why the peer-review method is effective at weeding out the bad science from the good science.
More pseudo-scientific garbage from Tomljenovic and Shaw | Diplomatic Immunity

Lots of the claims cited are from Mercola's website and he is discredited by the FDA for illegal claims about the stuff he sells on the website.

Studies of twins with autism, along with an increasing number of implicated genes show that autism has a very strong though complicated genetic basis. Given autismís heterogeneity, it is unlikely that a single cause will be found that explains all cases of autism, and it is possible that other factors beyond genetics may play some role. Regardless of what is eventually found, some potential causes have been ruled out, including vaccines.
 
Old 08-01-2015, 11:22 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,583 posts, read 26,233,109 times
Reputation: 26643
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Breastfeeding is not exactly something that is well supported in our culture. Most mothers formula feed. I'm not talking about formula feeding mandates. You either missed my point or are just trying to change the subject. The point being, there are a lot of health behaviors that we could promote or "mandate" in order to save billions of dollars in health costs and save lives. Yet the focus seems to be only on forcing vaccinations on people. Why is the focus on vaccines? Why the mandates in this area while other areas such as breastfeeding, banning unhealthy foods and vices are not?
Because none of those other things are behaviors that can harm other people. Mandates are not needed. Increased breastfeeding rates is a worthy goal, but there is no way to mandate breast feeding. We will never attempt to ban alcohol again, but we do mandate that people not drink and drive - because that can injure other people. We do not ban cigarettes, but we do mandate where you cannot smoke them. Bad diets impact only the person with the bad diet. Getting people to eat better and exercise is another worthy goal, but there is no way to mandate diet and exercise.

We jolly well can and should mandate vaccines for public school attendance.

Quote:
You really do not understand sarcasm, do you? The article showed measles cases rising in Sudan, a country that is also seeing rising rates of vaccination. Re-read the conversation in context and maybe you will get it.
I get it. You are just tap dancing around what you said:

"So you are saying that when our vaccination rate goes up, our cases of measles will follow? That is what is happening in Sudan. Vaccinations rate has been steadily rising in Sudan and currently stands at 85%. Measles cases are rising too it seems."

Rodentraiser pointed out that there are areas in this country with even lower vaccination rates than Sudan, showing that the US could be in the same predicament as Sudan if measles is introduced into those low vaccine coverage areas. She never implied that increasing vaccination rates were the cause of the increased number of cases of measles. You definitely implied that is what you think, though: measles vaccine does not work.

It appears you still do not understand that Sudan is struggling to achieve herd immunity.
 
Old 08-01-2015, 11:26 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,583 posts, read 26,233,109 times
Reputation: 26643
Another crank web site:

nsnbc.me - RationalWiki

More conspiracy theories and woo.
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