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Old 08-02-2015, 08:42 PM
 
Location: BC, Arizona
1,170 posts, read 747,863 times
Reputation: 2377

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyborgt800 View Post
^^^ Yes, ask the people whom kill more people in this country each year through malpractice than anything else that kills. Yup! Those are the people to believe about something being safe for injection.

I can't tell you how many times doctors say one thing and I initially listened and got worse. Then I take the advice of a chiropractor or naturopath and the problem lessens or goes away...leaving the doctor to shake their head and say that shouldn't be! Yeah, because it's not profitable to big pharma so doctors don't endorse it!
"You know what they call alternative medicine that actually works? ... medicine."

 
Old 08-02-2015, 09:08 PM
 
Location: Marquette, Mich
1,022 posts, read 384,204 times
Reputation: 2322
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlvancouver View Post
"You know what they call alternative medicine that actually works? ... medicine."
There's a big difference between supporting wellness and curing disease, too. I drink plenty of water & eat my veggies to support my own wellness, but some garlic, lemon concoction won't cure a cold. And even if I'm very, very WELL, I can still catch an infectious disease.

Years ago, I saw a chiropractor. He required a "class" before beginning a prolonged treatment program, and offered them regularly. The reason was, he wanted to be clear about what he could and could not do. He could evaluate and treat certain mechanical issues related to manipulation of the spine. He could not cure a disease. He could potentially ease pain from tension headaches. He could not lower cholesterol. He could potentially relieve neck pain. He could not cure allergies. He was very, very good at what he could do. He did not suggest skipping vaccines. He did not claim to prevent the flu. Fast forward to one my husband saw more recently who threatened to drop him as a patient if he got a flu shot, and eventually suggested his back pain was due to lactose intolerance. That be crazy.
 
Old 08-03-2015, 07:05 AM
 
5,644 posts, read 3,196,510 times
Reputation: 6628
This is a very good article explaining Catholic Conscientious Objection to Vaccinations.

https://www.catholicculture.org/comm...tn.cfm?id=1074

Basically, the Church leaves it up to the individual parents.

It is briefly mentioned in this article Governor Perry's former mandate of the HPV vaccinations. That also gets into another religious objection; not the ingredients of the vaccine, but the future behavior of parents children.

While I do not want to turn this into a religious discussion, it is relevant to a religious objection to vaccination. There is a Catholic concept known as the "facilitation of a sin". In the case of HPV vaccination parents would be condoning and facilitating the sin of sex outside of marriage for their children.

Catholic Justice Scalia discussed this in his objection to the contraceptive mandate, "facilitation in the sin of artificial birth control". It is the same with Gardasil in facilitating the sin of sex outside of marriage.

So you would have religious objections not only with using fetal stem lines, but also with the condoning/facilitating the behavior of sex outside of marriage.

I am a former Catholic and graduated from Catholic schools. Yes, Suzy, there would be a religious objection to mandating Gardasil also. This is probably why Texas pulled that state mandate of HPV vaccination, and why so few states want to eliminate the religious exemption to vaccinations.
 
Old 08-03-2015, 09:03 AM
 
8,542 posts, read 5,264,452 times
Reputation: 9100
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Vaccine mandates will add pennies to Merck's bottom line while saving billions in direct and indirect health care costs. You can pay Merck or you can pay doctors, hospitals, and all the drug companies that make medications to treat vaccine preventable diseases.
I don't agree with you. Vaccines are profitable and there is reason to believe that they may contribute to chronic health problems such as autoimmune disease later in life. Merck does not lobby for vaccine mandates out of the goodness of their heart.

Quote:
Your assertion that the US medical community does not support breast feeding is false.
Why are our breastfeeding rates so extremely low if breastfeeding is so well supported in our society?

Quote:
Danger to other students is not behind the Rhode Island mandate. How many times to I have to say that? Danger to the individual from HPV associated diseases and cancers is.
So no danger to students, they are just using the opportunity to add it to the mandated schedule because they can? There is no reason whatsoever to mandate the HPV vaccine. If people wish to get it, they can. Mandate? No. Meanwhile in Japan.......

Quote:
Producing flu vaccine is difficult. It is not like any other vaccine, and effectiveness will vary from year to year depending on what strains are in the vaccine, what strains are circulating, and how the vaccine and the circulating strains match. Since we do not know how good the match will be until flu season is well underway, a gambler might want to hedge his bet by getting the vaccine.
All good reasons why the flu vaccine should never become a mandate.

Quote:
A good chicken soup might make you feel better and break up lung congestion but there is so far no evidence that it will kill flu virus.
Your ignorance about nutrition and using food as medicine is your problem, not mine. Your loss.

Quote:
Vaccines do not compromise the immune system. A healthy immune system processes the material in vaccines quite nicely, in the same way it would react to an infection with the organism against which the vaccine is directed. There is no evidence that vaccines cause type 1 diabetes, multiple sclerosis, lupus, or other autoimmune diseases.
Disagree.
 
Old 08-03-2015, 09:18 AM
 
Location: A place that's too cold
4,080 posts, read 4,050,157 times
Reputation: 10057
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
This is a very good article explaining Catholic Conscientious Objection to Vaccinations.

https://www.catholicculture.org/comm...tn.cfm?id=1074

Basically, the Church leaves it up to the individual parents.

It is briefly mentioned in this article Governor Perry's former mandate of the HPV vaccinations. That also gets into another religious objection; not the ingredients of the vaccine, but the future behavior of parents children.

While I do not want to turn this into a religious discussion, it is relevant to a religious objection to vaccination. There is a Catholic concept known as the "facilitation of a sin". In the case of HPV vaccination parents would be condoning and facilitating the sin of sex outside of marriage for their children.

Catholic Justice Scalia discussed this in his objection to the contraceptive mandate, "facilitation in the sin of artificial birth control". It is the same with Gardasil in facilitating the sin of sex outside of marriage.

So you would have religious objections not only with using fetal stem lines, but also with the condoning/facilitating the behavior of sex outside of marriage.

I am a former Catholic and graduated from Catholic schools. Yes, Suzy, there would be a religious objection to mandating Gardasil also. This is probably why Texas pulled that state mandate of HPV vaccination, and why so few states want to eliminate the religious exemption to vaccinations.
Jo, although I'm not Catholic, I understand what you're saying about "facilitation of a sin." While I do think religious exemptions, in general, are prone to abuse, in the case of HPV, I think you raise some valid points.
 
Old 08-03-2015, 10:58 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,498 posts, read 26,102,510 times
Reputation: 26471
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
This is a very good article explaining Catholic Conscientious Objection to Vaccinations.

https://www.catholicculture.org/comm...tn.cfm?id=1074

Basically, the Church leaves it up to the individual parents.

It is briefly mentioned in this article Governor Perry's former mandate of the HPV vaccinations. That also gets into another religious objection; not the ingredients of the vaccine, but the future behavior of parents children.

While I do not want to turn this into a religious discussion, it is relevant to a religious objection to vaccination. There is a Catholic concept known as the "facilitation of a sin". In the case of HPV vaccination parents would be condoning and facilitating the sin of sex outside of marriage for their children.

Catholic Justice Scalia discussed this in his objection to the contraceptive mandate, "facilitation in the sin of artificial birth control". It is the same with Gardasil in facilitating the sin of sex outside of marriage.

So you would have religious objections not only with using fetal stem lines, but also with the condoning/facilitating the behavior of sex outside of marriage.

I am a former Catholic and graduated from Catholic schools. Yes, Suzy, there would be a religious objection to mandating Gardasil also. This is probably why Texas pulled that state mandate of HPV vaccination, and why so few states want to eliminate the religious exemption to vaccinations.
There is no evidence that people who are vaccinated have different sexual behaviors from people who are not.

Catholics, sex, and contraception:

Guttmacher Statistic on Catholic Women?s Contraceptive Use

"By their early 20s, some 79% of never-married women—and 89% of never-married Catholic women—have had sex."

"Among women who are currently at risk of unintended pregnancy, 88% overall—and 87% of Catholics—use a method other than natural family planning."

It appears that Catholics are having sex outside marriage and using contraception without any facilitation being needed at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
I don't agree with you. Vaccines are profitable and there is reason to believe that they may contribute to chronic health problems such as autoimmune disease later in life. Merck does not lobby for vaccine mandates out of the goodness of their heart.
Please provide the evidence showing that vaccines contribute to chronic health problems such as autoimmune disease later in life. Internet anecdotes are not evidence.

Quote:
Why are our breastfeeding rates so extremely low if breastfeeding is so well supported in our society?
Because it is not easy, especially if a mom works. My daughter in law did it, but it required great dedication. It took nursing and pumping around the clock for months to get her milk supply established. My husband's niece recently had a baby and has had a problem with mastitis. Many mothers are just not motivated enough to do it. Doctors who take care of babies do encourage breast feeding.

Quote:
So no danger to students, they are just using the opportunity to add it to the mandated schedule because they can? There is no reason whatsoever to mandate the HPV vaccine. If people wish to get it, they can. Mandate? No. Meanwhile in Japan.......
It appears there are anti-vax quacks in Japan, too. That does not mean the US should follow Japan's lead. Political leaders in some areas of Pakistan are thwarting efforts to eradicate polio. Should the US be like Pakistan?

Quote:
All good reasons why the flu vaccine should never become a mandate.
If it becomes a mandate anywhere, you can just choose an alternative way to educate your children.

Quote:
Your ignorance about nutrition and using food as medicine is your problem, not mine. Your loss.
I notice you do not provide any evidence that food does anything except help with symptoms of flu. What do you do for someone who is too sick to eat?

Quote:
Disagree.
Then provide some evidence to support your opinion.
 
Old 08-03-2015, 11:22 AM
 
8,542 posts, read 5,264,452 times
Reputation: 9100
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
It appears there are anti-vax quacks in Japan, too.
This is hilarious, Suzy. Are you really calling the health authorities in Japan who suspended the vaccine, "quacks"? Really? That's why it's of no use to share info with you, you always attack the source and you only care about industry sources that support your view which are often biased and can't be relied on for that reason. It's absolutely amazing that you would go so far as to call the Japanese health authority "quacks" for taking the reported side effects seriously and suspending the vaccine until they can be sure it is safe (or not). Anyone or anything that questions vaccines no matter what their credentials is labelled a quack. It's ridiculous.
 
Old 08-03-2015, 11:37 AM
 
5,644 posts, read 3,196,510 times
Reputation: 6628
Sorry, Suzy, there are people who do believe in this dogma. Anton Scalia is one just person, as well as Rick Santorum. Don't want to get OT, but Santorum also said States should have the right to ban birth control if they want,, regardless of how many people, Catholic or not, use birth control.

I would think both would not want an elimination of the religious exemption to vaccination. Statistics mean nothing when it comes to religion for those who are very religious. You are ignoring what I said by facilitating in sin. This means that the person does not have to be committing the sin themselves, merely "aiding and abetting" in the commission of it. They are sinning just by that.

Sorry, Suzy, yes, it is a religious issue, especially among the most extreme element. Look up Opus Dei if you have never heard of that. Justice Scalia is a member of that.

Sorry, to turn this into a religious discussion but it is a factor for some people.
 
Old 08-03-2015, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,498 posts, read 26,102,510 times
Reputation: 26471
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
This is hilarious, Suzy. Are you really calling the health authorities in Japan who suspended the vaccine, "quacks"? Really? That's why it's of no use to share info with you, you always attack the source and you only care about industry sources that support your view which are often biased and can't be relied on for that reason. It's absolutely amazing that you would go so far as to call the Japanese health authority "quacks" for taking the reported side effects seriously and suspending the vaccine until they can be sure it is safe (or not). Anyone or anything that questions vaccines no matter what their credentials is labelled a quack. It's ridiculous.
If they are ignoring the scientific evidence, they are quacks, just like in the US.

The vaccine has not been "suspended". It is still available, just not on the "recommended" schedule. Uptake is low, however.

http://csis.org/files/publication/14...nation_Web.pdf

Japan

Japan and HPV vaccine

Why is the approach in Japan more valid than the approach in Australia, which makes the vaccine free through its NHS?

http://hpv.health.gov.au/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Sorry, Suzy, there are people who do believe in this dogma. Anton Scalia is one just person, as well as Rick Santorum. Don't want to get OT, but Santorum also said States should have the right to ban birth control if they want,, regardless of how many people, Catholic or not, use birth control.

I would think both would not want an elimination of the religious exemption to vaccination. Statistics mean nothing when it comes to religion for those who are very religious. You are ignoring what I said by facilitating in sin. This means that the person does not have to be committing the sin themselves, merely "aiding and abetting" in the commission of it. They are sinning just by that.

Sorry, Suzy, yes, it is a religious issue, especially among the most extreme element. Look up Opus Dei if you have never heard of that. Justice Scalia is a member of that.

Sorry, to turn this into a religious discussion but it is a factor for some people.
When virtually every Catholic has used birth control and engaged in premarital sex, the idea that vaccinating against HPV would "facilitate sin" is laughable.

The idea that states would ban contraception is also laughable.

My point, which you are ignoring, is that people are claiming religious exemptions who actually do not have religious views against vaccines. They do not want to vaccinate because they believe vaccines cause autism. Anti-vax sites actually encourage such deception.
 
Old 08-03-2015, 01:53 PM
 
15,287 posts, read 16,839,007 times
Reputation: 15019
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
I don't agree with you. Vaccines are profitable and there is reason to believe that they may contribute to chronic health problems such as autoimmune disease later in life. Merck does not lobby for vaccine mandates out of the goodness of their heart.
Yes, vaccines are profitable, but not at the rate you seem to imply. While vaccines are more profitable now than they were in the 70s and 80s, the number of companies manufacturing the vaccines has gone down and research into new vaccines and new drugs tends to be expensive.

Vaccines Are Profitable, So What? - The Atlantic

Quote:
A study released last year estimated that fully immunizing babies resulted in $10 saved for every dollar spent, about $69 billion total.
Quote:
One estimate puts the vaccine market now at $24 billion—huge, but a mere 2 to 3 percent of a trillion-dollar worldwide pharmaceutical industry.
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