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Old 08-04-2015, 10:45 PM
 
Location: Washington state
4,680 posts, read 2,296,137 times
Reputation: 13638

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
You cannot see the forest for the trees which is that sending them to private schools or homeschools will not keep them out of SOCIETY. They will still be free to go out in public the same as your vaccinated kids. You will never know what child, or adult, out and about around you is unvaccinated.

You have NO solution to this, and you know it.

I've already answered this. But I'll say it again for you: the average parent is not going to sit at home, especially if they already have a job, and home school their kids. You're right, they won't have a choice. If they want their kids to go to school, they'll have to vaccinate them.

The point of mandatory vaccination isn't to drive multitudes of kids to home schooling, it's to get those kids vaccinated. And if they are all vaccinated, people out in society wouldn't have to worry about coming into contact with them, ya think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyborgt800 View Post
Why on earth would they be spending money on hospital bills for their VACCINATED kids?
Oh, you mean the vaccinated kids that may end up with leukemia or something and have immune systems that can't stand up to measles or chicken pox. You know, like that vaccinated woman in Washington state who died because someone exposed her to measles in the hospital when her immune system couldn't handle the disease.

Asked and answered a while back.

Last edited by rodentraiser; 08-04-2015 at 11:15 PM..

 
Old 08-04-2015, 10:53 PM
 
Location: Washington state
4,680 posts, read 2,296,137 times
Reputation: 13638
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
You argue that exposure doesn't equal infection then you think that exposure to the disease (by vaccinated kids no less) is a problem?
Disease spreads even in highly vaccinated populations. Expect to see that the rates of disease will not change with these mandates.
It already has when they first introduced vaccines for childhood diseases.

Quote:

That is not what she is saying at all. What a poor analogy. Not all illnesses can be prevented by vaccination. The vaccinated kid can get and spread other illnesses. Excluding unvaccinated kids from school will not prevent kids from getting sick with other illnesses.

So now what you saying? That if vaccinations aren't 100%, the whole program is a loss and we might as well not vaccinate anyone? I already said I wasn't playing the all or nothing game. Something is always better than nothing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyborgt800 View Post
So...the vaccination is NOT absolute? And they admit it has mercury and other crap in it...things we KNOW are NOT safe.

Hmmm...they've been telling us GMO's are safe too!

"THEY" are being bought out by those with an agenda and profit in mind...NOT our health and safety.

*huge sigh* This is what happens when you start sounding off on stuff you haven't researched. No, vaccinations don't always take and they aren't always 100% effective. Name something in this world that is. Even Viagra doesn't work 100% of the time. That's the real world. Accept it, get over it and move on.
 
Old 08-04-2015, 11:02 PM
 
Location: Washington state
4,680 posts, read 2,296,137 times
Reputation: 13638
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
You don't understand the difference between choice and coercion, clearly.



You do realize that homeschoolers don't stay home, right? You'll bump into them in restaurants, stores, libraries, parks, museums, etc. Good luck with that.
You do realize that these unvaccinated kids are most at risk from being out in public, right?

As I already said to Jo:

The average parent is not going to sit at home, especially if they already have a job, and home school their kids. You're right, they won't have a choice. If they want their kids to go to school, they'll have to vaccinate them.

The point of mandatory vaccination isn't to drive multitudes of kids to home schooling, it's to get those kids vaccinated. And if they are all vaccinated, people out in society wouldn't have to worry about coming into contact with them, ya think?

Last edited by rodentraiser; 08-04-2015 at 11:16 PM..
 
Old 08-04-2015, 11:04 PM
 
Location: Washington state
4,680 posts, read 2,296,137 times
Reputation: 13638
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dude111 View Post
Very true..... If this garbage is so good,WHY ARE PRO-VACCINE PEOPLE WORRIED?

Washington Woman Is First U.S. Measles Death in 12 Years - NBC News

This is why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyborgt800 View Post
There is no such thing as scientific FACT...only THEORY and FAITH.
*headdesk*
 
Old 08-05-2015, 06:47 AM
 
5,644 posts, read 3,192,670 times
Reputation: 6627
[quote=tlvancouver;40694289]The bolded part is the fundamental flaw. It's not an argument. It's scientific fact vs baseless fears.

Its thousands of scientific studies against "celebrity" led completely debunked conspiracy theories. Its PROOF through prevention of diseases and less than one in a million serious adverse reaction. NOTHING in life is risk free. The fact that you can't comprehend that simple fact is why you're struggling here.

You know what IS proven to be harmful? Measles and the other diseases we vaccinate for. Ask your grandparents how it felt to bury their siblings.

You are accepting a known and deadly risk for the possibility (less than the likelihood of your kid being a BILLIONAIRE) that they might be harmed. That's absurd, and it's not reasonable to pretend it's valid. You may be able to do that for your kid (poor child) but mandates prevent your irrational decision making from harming the health of more vulnerable kids while they're at school.

Preventing disease is thought by most reasonable people to be a good thing.[/QUOTE

"Measles and the other diseases we vaccinate for. Ask your grandparents how it felt to bury their siblings."

Since my own grandparents were born in the 1800's and are long dead, I cannot ask them about their siblings dying from measles. My Uncle in the 1920's died from what they called "crib death", but I am sure that wasn't from one of these deadly contagious diseases because his twin brother in the same crib with him did not get sick, let alone die. Is there a vaccine today for crib death?

I can tell you though about MY generation who grew up in 1950's and 1960's. Children were not dying in the streets of NYC from the deadly diseases of measles, mumps, rueblla, chicken pox, etc.

My generation's parents (born 1920's) WANTED their kids to get these childhood diseases as young as possible and get them over with it. As I have said many, many times, I had them all under the age of 2. My Mom bragged about that to all the other parents, because I would not miss school being sick from them. No, it was not only my parents, because if all other parents were so terrified as they are today, I would not have had any other kids to play with growing up. Those measles and pox parties were also a part of those times also. That is also a fact.

Sorry, do not even attempt to pull the wool over my eyes because I LIVED in those days. You are spreading very false information about what it was like in those days, purely to suit your own agenda to scare the younger generation.

Edit: I tried to do a search on the Net about these old parties, but surprise, surprise, I could not find anything. Hmmm. There was just the usual propaganda promoting what you are saying. When my generation is dead, there will be nobody to dispute what science wants people to believe what the past was really like.

Last edited by Jo48; 08-05-2015 at 06:57 AM..
 
Old 08-05-2015, 07:07 AM
 
8,541 posts, read 5,260,408 times
Reputation: 9100
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
As I already said to Jo:

The average parent is not going to sit at home, especially if they already have a job, and home school their kids. You're right, they won't have a choice. If they want their kids to go to school, they'll have to vaccinate them.

The point of mandatory vaccination isn't to drive multitudes of kids to home schooling, it's to get those kids vaccinated. And if they are all vaccinated, people out in society wouldn't have to worry about coming into contact with them, ya think?
Thank you for acknowledging that fact that not all families have the option to homeschool and that this law will in fact force some to vaccinate against their will due to economic factors such as the parent needing to work. People will be forced to vaccinate by the state, against their will. How's that for freedom?

Suzy doesn't understand this fact. She still thinks that all of those who are not fully vaccinated make enough money to homeschool. It's not true. Some people will be forced to vaccinate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
The demographics clearly show that the typical anti-vax family is affluent enough to afford to home school.
Quote:
Why would anyone choose to give a child a vaccine if he thought it would be dangerous?
Because they can't afford to homeschool. Not every family can make it work financially. The need to have food and shelter is strong.

Last edited by MissTerri; 08-05-2015 at 07:18 AM..
 
Old 08-05-2015, 07:54 AM
 
Location: BC, Arizona
1,170 posts, read 747,336 times
Reputation: 2377
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post

Since my own grandparents were born in the 1800's and are long dead, I cannot ask them about their siblings dying from measles. My Uncle in the 1920's died from what they called "crib death", but I am sure that wasn't from one of these deadly contagious diseases because his twin brother in the same crib with him did not get sick, let alone die. Is there a vaccine today for crib death?

I can tell you though about MY generation who grew up in 1950's and 1960's. Children were not dying in the streets of NYC from the deadly diseases of measles, mumps, rueblla, chicken pox, etc.

My generation's parents (born 1920's) WANTED their kids to get these childhood diseases as young as possible and get them over with it. As I have said many, many times, I had them all under the age of 2. My Mom bragged about that to all the other parents, because I would not miss school being sick from them. No, it was not only my parents, because if all other parents were so terrified as they are today, I would not have had any other kids to play with growing up. Those measles and pox parties were also a part of those times also. That is also a fact.

Sorry, do not even attempt to pull the wool over my eyes because I LIVED in those days. You are spreading very false information about what it was like in those days, purely to suit your own agenda to scare the younger generation.

Edit: I tried to do a search on the Net about these old parties, but surprise, surprise, I could not find anything. Hmmm. There was just the usual propaganda promoting what you are saying. When my generation is dead, there will be nobody to dispute what science wants people to believe what the past was really like.

Are you even typing new responses or just cut and pasting? We get it. You equate measles with a bug bite. YOU ARE EITHER DELUSIONAL OR DELIBERATELY MISLEADING. Most reasonable parents (who raised reasonable children) did not want their kids to get sick. Clearly your parents were "special".

My favourite statement is when you can't find something to back up your crazy view then somehow the Internet is controlled by pro-science views. OR, possibly, your single super immune experience (or your self indulgent memory of it, is a bunch of self serving nonsense to support an irrational view.

Come on anti-vaxers - anyone else actually think that diseases that regularly REGULARLY killed thousands should be permitted to recur?

And Jo48, not every post needs your age, family status and the fact that conveniently every member of your family has faced every single illness ever and not even twitched (by my count you must have had 30 illnesses and 18 siblings for all your posts to be accurate.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Thank you for acknowledging that fact that not all families have the option to homeschool and that this law will in fact force some to vaccinate against their will due to economic factors such as the parent needing to work. People will be forced to vaccinate by the state, against their will. How's that for freedom?

Suzy doesn't understand this fact. She still thinks that all of those who are not fully vaccinated make enough money to homeschool. It's not true. Some people will be forced to vaccinate.

Because they can't afford to homeschool. Not every family can make it work financially. The need to have food and shelter is strong.
I don't care - public health policy shouldn't support or encourage stupidity. Obviously the goal isn't to make it convenient to do reckless things to your own children or others. If parents feel strongly enough they will find a way to homeschool but my hope is no one does so their OWN children aren't forced to endure preventable diseases. I don't have faith in an anti-science conspiracy theorists ABILITY to educate their child but that's another challenge their child will have to go through life with.

Just because a choice is difficult doesn't mean it's not a choice. There aren't simpler or smaller words ro help you grasp that very basic concept.
 
Old 08-05-2015, 08:01 AM
 
15,287 posts, read 16,828,849 times
Reputation: 15019
[quote=Jo48;40700344]
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlvancouver View Post
The bolded part is the fundamental flaw. It's not an argument. It's scientific fact vs baseless fears.

Its thousands of scientific studies against "celebrity" led completely debunked conspiracy theories. Its PROOF through prevention of diseases and less than one in a million serious adverse reaction. NOTHING in life is risk free. The fact that you can't comprehend that simple fact is why you're struggling here.

You know what IS proven to be harmful? Measles and the other diseases we vaccinate for. Ask your grandparents how it felt to bury their siblings.

You are accepting a known and deadly risk for the possibility (less than the likelihood of your kid being a BILLIONAIRE) that they might be harmed. That's absurd, and it's not reasonable to pretend it's valid. You may be able to do that for your kid (poor child) but mandates prevent your irrational decision making from harming the health of more vulnerable kids while they're at school.

Preventing disease is thought by most reasonable people to be a good thing.[/QUOTE

"Measles and the other diseases we vaccinate for. Ask your grandparents how it felt to bury their siblings."

Since my own grandparents were born in the 1800's and are long dead, I cannot ask them about their siblings dying from measles. My Uncle in the 1920's died from what they called "crib death", but I am sure that wasn't from one of these deadly contagious diseases because his twin brother in the same crib with him did not get sick, let alone die. Is there a vaccine today for crib death?

I can tell you though about MY generation who grew up in 1950's and 1960's. Children were not dying in the streets of NYC from the deadly diseases of measles, mumps, rueblla, chicken pox, etc.

My generation's parents (born 1920's) WANTED their kids to get these childhood diseases as young as possible and get them over with it. As I have said many, many times, I had them all under the age of 2. My Mom bragged about that to all the other parents, because I would not miss school being sick from them. No, it was not only my parents, because if all other parents were so terrified as they are today, I would not have had any other kids to play with growing up. Those measles and pox parties were also a part of those times also. That is also a fact.

Sorry, do not even attempt to pull the wool over my eyes because I LIVED in those days. You are spreading very false information about what it was like in those days, purely to suit your own agenda to scare the younger generation.

Edit: I tried to do a search on the Net about these old parties, but surprise, surprise, I could not find anything. Hmmm. There was just the usual propaganda promoting what you are saying. When my generation is dead, there will be nobody to dispute what science wants people to believe what the past was really like.
Measles cases in the US did not decline until the 1960s after the vaccine was introduced, but deaths did decline because nutrition was a big factor in children being able to survive the disease. Childhood nutrition (and childhood quality of life) really started to improve around the turn of the century, and nutrition is an enormous factor determining measles survival. This is still hugely relevant today; measles case-mortality rates in Africa are much higher than in the US or UK, for example, and nutrition status is the major predictor. American children in general had better nutrition than British, and that helps account for the earlier drop in measles mortality in the US.

As for the disease parties, they were pretty ill-advised.
Harpocrates Speaks: Orgies of Death - The Dangerous Tradition of Pox Parties and Measles Teas

Quote:
However, it may not be amiss to give briefly the comparative figures for the four diseases diphtheria, scarlet fever, measles and whooping-cough for 1913. In the Registration area the deathrates were as follows: diphtheria, 18.8; scarlet fever, 8.7; measles, 192.8; whooping-cough, 10.0 per 100,000.

It is difficult to see how the belief in the harmlessness of these diseases arose; it may be due to the fact that formerly the death returns of many cases of broncho-pneumonia and other diseases following the two under consideration contained no mention of the antecedent disease to which they were due and consequently were not classified as deaths due to either. For this reason the annual mortality lists, by containing few deaths due to either measles or whooping-cough, conveyed an entirely erroneous impression.
Quote:
Now, the families holding "pox parties" and "measles teas" in the early 1900s did not have the option of vaccination as a means of providing safe immunity to their children. I can (sort of) understand why they did what they did, even though the medical community of the time knew what a horrid idea it was to intentionally get your kid sick. The better option would have been to keep their children away, as much as possible, from anyone else who was ill.
 
Old 08-05-2015, 08:06 AM
 
Location: BC, Arizona
1,170 posts, read 747,336 times
Reputation: 2377
[quote=nana053;40701241]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post

Measles cases in the US did not decline until the 1960s after the vaccine was introduced, but deaths did decline because nutrition was a big factor in children being able to survive the disease. Childhood nutrition (and childhood quality of life) really started to improve around the turn of the century, and nutrition is an enormous factor determining measles survival. This is still hugely relevant today; measles case-mortality rates in Africa are much higher than in the US or UK, for example, and nutrition status is the major predictor. American children in general had better nutrition than British, and that helps account for the earlier drop in measles mortality in the US.

As for the disease parties, they were pretty ill-advised.
Harpocrates Speaks: Orgies of Death - The Dangerous Tradition of Pox Parties and Measles Teas
Nana053 I agree that hygiene and nutrition also play a role. It's just frustration you're hearing from me about over 100 pages of the same 4-5 posters alleging that eating greens and good genetics saved them so vaccines aren't needed. These are (as you point out) deadly diseases that we shouldn't be seeing. Vaccination works.

I hadn't read those quotes, interesting!
 
Old 08-05-2015, 08:15 AM
 
15,287 posts, read 16,828,849 times
Reputation: 15019
[quote=tlvancouver;40701308]
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post

Nana053 I agree that hygiene and nutrition also play a role. It's just frustration you're hearing from me about over 100 pages of the same 4-5 posters alleging that eating greens and good genetics saved them so vaccines aren't needed. These are (as you point out) deadly diseases that we shouldn't be seeing. Vaccination works.

I hadn't read those quotes, interesting!
I absolutely agree with you. It is frustrating when people use fear-mongering and pseudoscience to support the anti-vax stand. I deal with it from the autism standpoint since my grandson has autism (and it's definitely genetic - his dad is undxed, but he has asperger's for sure). There is so much quackery around. Luckily most on the autism boards have finally decided that vaccinations are safe.
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