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This is a very well-reasoned post in a sea of craziness! I particularly like what you said about coercion being necessary in various situations. A lot of semantical arguments have gone back and forth regarding these vac laws being a "choice" versus "coercion." Even though I am (in general) in favor of the mandates, I do agree with the posters who say they are more coercion than choice. But, unlike them, I agree with you that sometimes, coercion is needed for the overall good.
I also agree (who could possibly disagree?) that NOTHING in this world is 100% risk free. I don't understand how any rational person could view the minuscule risk of vaccinations as being a greater concern than the risks of the diseases they prevent.
Since you support mandates then I'm sure you'll be happy when HPV is added to the mandate list in your state with no option for an exemption. Good luck with that. Hopefully your children and grandchildren will not be among those who have a serious reaction to a vaccine.
I have repeatedly said I think that is a great idea. However, I am sure the anti-vax crowd would lobby vigorously against it because it would limit their choice to travel.
If traveling overseas is the problem then the more logical solution would be vaccination requirements for travel. Not forcing all school children into vaccinating. You don't think parents who refuse some or all vaccinations won't push back and lobby for their kids? Really?
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Meanwhile, it would be useful if returning Americans who are not vaccinated choose not to travel to areas where they can catch measles.
Of course. Choice is always the best course of action but if you are operating on fear and control then travel restrictions make more sense that eliminating exemptions. I'm not operating on fear or control so I'm in favor of choice in all instances. It just shows what glaring inconsistencies there are in the push towards forced vaccinations.
Clever...since you won't acknowledge any source that doesn't agree with your argument!
Yep, exactly. In his "list of questions" for me he set parameters, "no info from chiropractors, naturopaths, herbalists, etc. Only links from a specific list of health authorities (who have been caught lying before and who are not as credible as he pretends or likes to think) will do. This is the same poster who got mad at me because he "couldn't pin me down" (his words). Why he thinks I would answer his important list of questions is beyond me. Some people are very closed minded and incapable of critical thinking. One of these people even called the health authorities in Japan, "Quacks" for taking a cautious approach to the HPV vaccine in face of many reports of severe reactions including paralysis.
Keep up with the conversation. The ONLY way to be exempt from the mandate/bill is to truly homeschool which in CA means you have to have a teaching degree.
you persist in saying that homeschooling is a valid choice if you don't want to vaccinate yet it has been shown that the ONLY way a parent can truly be exempt in CA is if they homeschool with a teaching degree. Sure... plenty of parents are going to run out to get their teaching degree so their kids can be exempt.
This is called force by coercion. Make it impossible to choose one option so they are FORCED to choose the other.
The private home based school is not the same as a brick and mortar private school. You can home school in California without teaching credentials. You also ignored the option to affiliate with a private school, meaning your child is enrolled in that school and the teachers there supervise instruction provided in the home by the parent. There are also two options that allow enrollment in public school while providing instruction at home.
When you are shown to be wrong about something, the wise thing to do is admit it.
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Then you say that the illness vaccines cause are NONE, yet next you admit there are SOME?
Note that the word used was "illness". Vaccines do not cause diabetes, MS, or the thousands of other illnesses the anti-vax crowd try to blame on them.
Vaccines have side effects, which are common, like sore arms and fevers, and serious adverse effects, which are fortunately very, very, very, very rare.
I am reading out of a booklet printed in 1948 that my great aunts and uncles put together. My great-grand parents (the parents of my mother's mother) had nine children. Lena, John, Fred, Emma, Minnie, Charles, Henry, Mary, and Louise. Louise was my grandmother. Lena, 19, Emma, 12, Henry, 5, and Mary, 2, died of diphtheria in December of 1889.
Somehow I think my great-grandmother would have accepted the risk of the diphtheria vaccination if it meant her children would have lived.
And just so you know, Laura Ingalls Wilder, the famous children's author, also had diphtheria along with her husband. She almost died of it and her husband ended up with a stroke afterwards, which caused him to limp the rest of his life.
The reasons vaccines exist today is because the diseases were, and are, real. Jo, how would you feel if you lost a child to what is a preventable disease today? Would be able to forgive yourself?
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Originally Posted by MissTerri
As you know, not everyone can homeschool. Those families who cannot afford to homeschool with in fact be forced into vaccinating in order for their children to attend school. Not everyone can afford to homeschool. That's not akin to choice.
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Originally Posted by katjonjj
So you admit that these mandates take away choice and are coercion. Parents that cannot homeschool, for whatever reason, are being coerced (forced to choose) into vaccinating. Thanks for at least being honest about that.
Which is exactly what I hope for.
So let me ask you two this: if someone had drug resistant TB, would you be in favor of involuntary quarantine for them?
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As a resident of WA, the whole case is suspect and full of holes. The report also came months later, the day after the CA mandate. It was discussed thoroughly on another thread.
Yep, exactly. In his "list of questions" for me he set parameters, "no info from chiropractors, naturopaths, herbalists, etc. Only links from a specific list of health authorities (who have been caught lying before and who are not as credible as he pretends or likes to think) will do. This is the same poster who got mad at me because he "couldn't pin me down" (his words). Why he thinks I would answer his important list of questions is beyond me. Some people are very closed minded and incapable of critical thinking. One of these people even called the health authorities in Japan, "Quacks" for taking a cautious approach to the HPV vaccine in face of many reports of severe reactions including paralysis.
You're right, why would citing medical sources for medical opinions be relevant?
And even crazier, why would it matter if it was the American Pediatric Association or your eyebrow waxer. Right.
It's not critical thinking to be suspicious without substance. That's not thinking at all.
Question? Are you people terrified of your child going to school with another child who is HIV Positive? If you are terrified of an unvaccinated child for Hep. B, why not Aids? Both are spread the same way, blood products or sex. Oh, I see that is fine because there is no VACCINE for HIV?
Would you prevent them from going to public schools too to protect your precious snowflakes? Little children BLEED in public schools. If you are so terrified of them catching Hep. B from an unvaccinated child, why not HIV?
"The bill would exempt pupils in a home-based private school and students enrolled in an independent study program and who do not receive classroom-based instruction ... "
Since you support mandates then I'm sure you'll be happy when HPV is added to the mandate list in your state with no option for an exemption. Good luck with that. Hopefully your children and grandchildren will not be among those who have a serious reaction to a vaccine.
The risk of an adverse reaction to a vaccine is microscopic. The risk of getting a vaccine preventable disease, especially HPV, is many times higher.
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Originally Posted by MissTerri
If traveling overseas is the problem then the more logical solution would be vaccination requirements for travel. Not forcing all school children into vaccinating. You don't think parents who refuse some or all vaccinations won't push back and lobby for their kids? Really?
Of course. Choice is always the best course of action but if you are operating on fear and control then travel restrictions make more sense that eliminating exemptions. I'm not operating on fear or control so I'm in favor of choice in all instances. It just shows what glaring inconsistencies there are in the push towards forced vaccinations.
Vaccine requirements for travel will help with measles but other diseases not so much, especially whooping cough.
No one is forced to vaccinate. If you do not want to, don't. Your choice will have consequences. It is up to you to choose how to deal with them.
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Originally Posted by MissTerri
Yep, exactly. In his "list of questions" for me he set parameters, "no info from chiropractors, naturopaths, herbalists, etc. Only links from a specific list of health authorities (who have been caught lying before and who are not as credible as he pretends or likes to think) will do. This is the same poster who got mad at me because he "couldn't pin me down" (his words). Why he thinks I would answer his important list of questions is beyond me. Some people are very closed minded and incapable of critical thinking. One of these people even called the health authorities in Japan, "Quacks" for taking a cautious approach to the HPV vaccine in face of many reports of severe reactions including paralysis.
When you claim to base vaccination decisions on science you lose credibility by including chiropractors and naturopaths as sources.
Yep, Japan has quacks, too. Quackery has no respect for international boundaries. Japanese quacks are even called out by Japanese infectious disease experts.
"'Japan has a few issues of concern to me,” Kamiya stated. 'For instance, there is an issue related to the HPV vaccine. There are approximately 10,000 new cases of cervical cancer per year, resulting in about 3,000 deaths. HPV vaccine has been included in the national immunization program since 2010, but it has been suspended. This suspension is based on five cases of "complex regional pain syndrome," which was self-reported as an adverse event after administration of the HPV vaccine, and is characterized by pain in multiple areas of the body. While the committee experts showed evidence that indicate no relationship between HPV vaccine and this adverse event, emotional media coverage and the decisions of a few leaders have led the government to cease administration of the vaccine. Expert opinion is valued more than evidence. If you have an expert who is popular, they may have influence over the public.'
Kamiya went on to say that 'In Japan, changes come from Congress, and they are very difficult to make. They don’t always vote in favor of public health. Also, staff at the Ministry of Health rotate about every two years and that makes it difficult to have continuous discussions with leadership.'”
You're right, why would citing medical sources for medical opinions be relevant?
And even crazier, why would it matter if it was the American Pediatric Association or your eyebrow waxer. Right.
It's not critical thinking to be suspicious without substance. That's not thinking at all.
I haven't seen you posting studies or sources either, just memes and lots of posts that consist strictly of mocking people who do not share your point of views. You even called a few people trolls for having a different opinion, did you not?
Last edited by MissTerri; 08-06-2015 at 02:55 PM..
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It was discussed thoroughly on another thread.
