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Old 08-06-2015, 05:25 PM
 
8,541 posts, read 5,262,232 times
Reputation: 9100

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne View Post
Seriously? Did you seriously just post that to me? *I* am the one who agreed with your posts about the HPV mandate. I am not in favor of that mandate, which I explained in my posts. Do you remember that, but willfully choose to post rudely to me anyway?

I am probably the only person here who has tried to find common ground, who has supported statements (including yours) from both sides of the issues, and who has not stubbornly dug in my heels refusing to acknowledging valid points on both sides.

And THIS is how you reply to me??
Did you seriously reply to Mark's post which in part was a put down to me for not answering his questions in a way that he demanded?

Quote:
This is a very well-reasoned post in a sea of craziness!
The thing about mandates is that if you support the mandates like the ones in CA, one day you may find things added to the mandated list (like the HPV vaccine) that you don't like or agree with and guess what? You'll then be forced to comply with said mandate that you supported for a vaccine that you may not agree with. This is a huge part of the problem with mandates, they open the door for other things being added and eventually many people who initially thought they were such a great idea suddenly find themselves mandated to do something that they are against. I'm sorry if you were offended by my post but I don't understand how people can't see this. It's frustrating and I'm offended that people want to take away people's right to choose. I do believe that some will regret it when a vaccine is added that they aren't on board with.

 
Old 08-06-2015, 05:27 PM
 
8,541 posts, read 5,262,232 times
Reputation: 9100
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Interestingly enough some naturopaths and chiropractors advocate vaccination. As for being quacks...
ND & MD require MCAT.
In the first two years of med school:
DC has 3606 educational hours & 1023 clinic hours, That seems pretty extensive to me.
MD has 2600 educational hours & 2200 clinic hours. Plus mandatory residency years.
ND has 3348 educational hours & 1400 clinic hours. Plus mandatory research years.

Issue is that ND have more educational credits in subjects like Anatomy, Biochemistry, Physiology, Pathology, and Clinical Training (nearly double). AANMC: Comparing ND & MD Curricula

To call NDs and DCs quacks is just wrong! While MDs focus on clinic hours and pharmaceuticals. While NDs focus on nutrition and clinical training.

The CDC has an agenda as do most publications and websites. I'd rather not put all my eggs in one basket.
Thank you for sharing this for those who don't believe any of these professions can have a say about vaccinations. They are well educated and trained. It's ok to get information from a wide variety of sources.
 
Old 08-06-2015, 07:24 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
3,510 posts, read 2,794,198 times
Reputation: 6371
[quote=MissTerri;40723613]
Quote:
It's frustrating and I'm offended that people want to take away people's right to choose.
Nobody is losing their right to CHOOSE, as has been repeatedly stated by courts in previous vaccination decisions.

You are not an island, you live within a democratic society, not anarchy. We all make certain sacrifices and no "rights" are unlimited. When it comes to public health, we're all in this together, whether you're a Libertarian or a Marxist and everything in between. Its why the State can enforce quarantines and other such measures, the needs and "rights" of one individual due not overrule the needs and general health of society as a whole.

You're not being forced to be vaccinated, but if you choose to opt out, there will be restrictions, this doesn't eliminate your ability to choose, you just know that there are different outcomes possible.


Quote:
I do believe that some will regret it when a vaccine is added that they aren't on board with.
All baseless scare-mongering. Both Mississippi and West Virginia have had mandatory vaccination for decades as the set law, neither state requires HPV or any absurd number of vaccinations.


These are the vaccinations that West Virginia requires->

http://www.dhhr.wv.gov/oeps/immuniza...nts/school.pdf

http://www.dhhr.wv.gov/oeps/immuniza...art%202013.pdf


These are the vaccinations that Mississippi requires->

http://msdh.ms.gov/msdhsite/_static/resources/2029.pdf



Going by your logic, they both should have like 50 required vaccines now. They don't, because your rhetoric is just baseless fearmongering from the anti-vax crowd, acting like monkeys at the zoo throwing poop and seeing what sticks.





If the data reflects that a certain vaccine can be useful in saving lives or preventing disease in the future, it absolutely should be brought up in a discussion among the public health authorities in a given state.


And as always, if the people don't like what their elected leaders are doing, they have the opportunity to voice their displeasure at the ballot box. In California, the folks who oppose the vaccination requirements will likely be able to get it on a referendum, they can try and recall politicians who supported it or just straight vote them out of office during the next election.
 
Old 08-06-2015, 10:53 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,485 posts, read 26,089,700 times
Reputation: 26440
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Interestingly enough some naturopaths and chiropractors advocate vaccination. As for being quacks...
ND & MD require MCAT.
In the first two years of med school:
DC has 3606 educational hours & 1023 clinic hours, That seems pretty extensive to me.
MD has 2600 educational hours & 2200 clinic hours. Plus mandatory residency years.
ND has 3348 educational hours & 1400 clinic hours. Plus mandatory research years.

Issue is that ND have more educational credits in subjects like Anatomy, Biochemistry, Physiology, Pathology, and Clinical Training (nearly double). AANMC: Comparing ND & MD Curricula

To call NDs and DCs quacks is just wrong! While MDs focus on clinic hours and pharmaceuticals. While NDs focus on nutrition and clinical training.

The CDC has an agenda as do most publications and websites. I'd rather not put all my eggs in one basket.
You are implying that the quality of instruction in those hours you cite is comparable. It's not.

On the education of chiropractors. Comments by chiropractors:

Final Thoughts

Another chiropractor:

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org...tic-gimmickry/

By the way, chiropractic colleges spend a good chunk of those hours on business and marketing courses.

You can become a naturopath completely online:

Blue Heron Academy massage, medical assistant and fitness school provides healthcare career training in grand rapids michigan

The education of a chiropractor or naturopath is in no way comparable to that of someone with a Doctor of Medicine degree and a minimum of a three year residency in a specialty - during which 16 hour days are the norms, including weekends.
 
Old 08-06-2015, 11:21 PM
 
Location: Washington state
4,680 posts, read 2,299,411 times
Reputation: 13657
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Oh, the Skeptical Raptor blog. That's not biased at all.

By the way, it's against the TOS to copy and paste long walls of text from other sites and paste them into your posts. It's a copyright thing. We're only allowed to post snippets. It's also against the TOS to call people "trolls".
You asked for data, she gave you data. Don't complain when you get what you asked for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
It's not as small as you and the vaccine companies have led people to believe.
Do you have any idea how dangerous rubella is to the fetus of a pregnant woman?

Quote:

Maybe rodentraiser can help you understand that there is no real choice involved in this coercive legislation. Some will be forced despite your misguided claims to the contrary.

I said I hoped that people would be forced to vaccinate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Question? Are you people terrified of your child going to school with another child who is HIV Positive? If you are terrified of an unvaccinated child for Hep. B, why not Aids? Both are spread the same way, blood products or sex. Oh, I see that is fine because there is no VACCINE for HIV?

Would you prevent them from going to public schools too to protect your precious snowflakes? Little children BLEED in public schools. If you are so terrified of them catching Hep. B from an unvaccinated child, why not HIV?
So now you're playing the all or nothing game. If we can't have a vaccine for everything, then we shouldn't vaccinate anyone for anything.

It doesn't work like that. This is what you sound like: "Because we don't have seat belts in buses, I shouldn't have to put seat belts on my kids when they're in my car." In other words, if we don't have seatbelts for every vehicle, we shouldn't have them in any vehicle. See how silly that sounds?

I am not terrified of an unvaccinated child with Hep B because I've had my vaccinations for hepatitis. And I'm also not terrified of HIV. HIV is spread through sexual contact or direct contact with bodily fluids. You know why blood from an HIV person isn't contagious after it's been exposed to air? Because the virus can only live in blood of a certain temperature and if that temperature falls, the virus dies. So if Little Johnny has HIV and falls and skins his knee, it may bleed, but unless you pick that blood up right away and swallow it or put it in your eyes or rub it in an open wound you may have, the chances of you catching HIV from Little Johnny is pretty much non-existent.
 
Old 08-06-2015, 11:25 PM
 
Location: Washington state
4,680 posts, read 2,299,411 times
Reputation: 13657
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Are you guys married? You both live in the same state. Same city even? Maybe you guys should hang out. You seem to have a lot in common. Maybe you could move to CA together since they have a law that you both love.
You are aware that there is a Vancouver city in Washington state AND a Vancouver city in Canada, along with an island named Vancouver in Canada as well, right?
 
Old 08-07-2015, 03:35 AM
 
Location: BC, Arizona
1,170 posts, read 747,574 times
Reputation: 2377
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post

I am not terrified of an unvaccinated child with Hep B because I've had my vaccinations for hepatitis. And I'm also not terrified of HIV. HIV is spread through sexual contact or direct contact with bodily fluids. You know why blood from an HIV person isn't contagious after it's been exposed to air? Because the virus can only live in blood of a certain temperature and if that temperature falls, the virus dies. So if Little Johnny has HIV and falls and skins his knee, it may bleed, but unless you pick that blood up right away and swallow it or put it in your eyes or rub it in an open wound you may have, the chances of you catching HIV from Little Johnny is pretty much non-existent.
Like rodentraiser, I'm not "terrified" of a child with HIV, but if there was a vaccine for it I certainly would ensure my child received it.
 
Old 08-07-2015, 06:16 AM
 
5,644 posts, read 3,194,565 times
Reputation: 6627
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlvancouver View Post
From that article:
"The reason that [people] get more entrenched [in their opposition to vaccination] is they feel like they're not being listened to. So you don't throw information at the problem. Instead you learn to listen."

I agree with this approach when it relates to individual mothers making decisions about their children's healthcare. The doctors I talk to say their practice is about sharing information with mothers and the vast (overhelming) majority of those mothers end up vaccinating their children.

This does NOT (IMO) extend to "listening to" the rabid intransigent anti-vax agendas on forums like this. Their "feelings" don't trump thousands of studies, particularly when their goal is to "convert" others to the anti-science view.

Anyone on this thread for more than a day knows no amount of "listening" will change the minds of the 4-5 repeat anti-science posters. Personally, the information I provide is to help mothers sort through the rhetoric and make informed decisions.
We are not trying to convert others. How many times have we said vaccinate all you want? We keep saying MEDICAL TREATMENT should be a choice left up to the individual. It is a very slippery slope once you start mandating one treatment (vaccinations), what will be next? How about mandatory Ritalin for ADHD kids in public schools? Mandatory BMI testing of kids in public schools? That one made national news at the school where I used to work. FAT LETTERS sent home to parents, and to kids who weren't even fat. Nanny State Medical Treatment/Tyranny in schools, workplaces, etc. Oh, my dear, vaccinations are just the tip of the iceberg. I saw that at the public school where I used to work which became OBSESSED with the "health" of both students and staff.

Public Education is meant to EDUCATE children, and should never attempt to be their doctors.
 
Old 08-07-2015, 06:56 AM
 
8,541 posts, read 5,262,232 times
Reputation: 9100
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
You are aware that there is a Vancouver city in Washington state AND a Vancouver city in Canada, along with an island named Vancouver in Canada as well, right?
Phoenix.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
You asked for data, she gave you data. Don't complain when you get what you asked for.
I didn't ask for data. I did my research and I have read numerous studies over the years and I haven't limited my reading to just one side of the issue.
 
Old 08-07-2015, 06:57 AM
 
8,541 posts, read 5,262,232 times
Reputation: 9100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
We are not trying to convert others. How many times have we said vaccinate all you want? We keep saying MEDICAL TREATMENT should be a choice left up to the individual. It is a very slippery slope once you start mandating one treatment (vaccinations), what will be next? How about mandatory Ritalin for ADHD kids in public schools? Mandatory BMI testing of kids in public schools? That one made national news at the school where I used to work. FAT LETTERS sent home to parents, and to kids who weren't even fat. Nanny State Medical Treatment/Tyranny in schools, workplaces, etc. Oh, my dear, vaccinations are just the tip of the iceberg. I saw that at the public school where I used to work which became OBSESSED with the "health" of both students and staff.

Public Education is meant to EDUCATE children, and should never attempt to be their doctors.
Exactly.
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