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Old 08-10-2015, 07:10 AM
 
5,644 posts, read 3,196,510 times
Reputation: 6628

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
MIssTerri, you haven't yet answered my question about whether or not mandatory quarantine for a confirmed MDR-TB patient is justified or not. And I think the reason for that is because you yourself wouldn't want to be exposed to someone who was walking around in public and spreading a difficult-to-treat disease, but if you said quarantine was justified for this person, you'd be advocating for public health the same way I am.

That's what it is, public health, not a nanny state. That's why it's call PUBLIC health. not private health.

You, along with Jo and Katjonjj and a few others, haven't gotten it yet. And that is, your rights to choose to not vaccinate END when they impose on my right to be healthy.

Believe it or not, it isn't all about you and yours. Maybe it's time you guys learned what the rest of us already learned in kindergarten, and that is: you SHARE this world with other people, like it or not. Just like we have a law not allowing a person to drive drunk because of the potential harm they may inflict on others, we now have a law that doesn't allow you to leave your children unvaccinated because of the potential harm that unvaccinated child may do to others.

And just like a drunk who chooses to drive, you can also choose not to vaccinate. But understand that your choices have consequences and if those consequences are that your children are not allowed in public school if you decide to not vaccinate, then accept those consequences and let that be the end of it.

I'm really saying all that in a very nice way. I spent a week in intensive care 18 months ago. Maybe I should put it like this: I spent ONLY a week in intensive care. Had I gotten sick with anything serious, like measles or chicken pox, that one week could easily have turned into three or four weeks. And you better believe, if I had gotten the measles or chicken pox from some kid or adult who was incubating any of these diseases because of not being vaccinated by his brain dead parents, I'd be using language a lot stronger than this.
First, your own state of Washington failed to pass legislation similar to California's mandatory vaccination. Maybe you can get that Federal Bill passed instead mandating every single child in the USA be vaccinated for everything under sun, including any new ones in the works? Then you will have 100% Herd Immunity!

What are my consequences? I don't have young children to be kept out of public schools. I am retired and cannot be fired from my job. I don't have my own personal doctor who will be drop or report me for not being up to date on whatever vaccinations my "weakening elderly immune system" needs so I won't be hospitalized or die from the flu, whooping cough, or maybe even diphtheria or tetanus?

We keep saying this for the millionth time. You, and the health care professionals on here, can smugly talk about mandating vaccinations for public school kids or home schooling, but that will not keep these children, and especially ADULTS, out of society. Plus, you will never know who they are. Maybe wear a mask out in public? Maybe in addition to running out right now and getting all those vax I have missed over 50 years, I should also wear that mask out in public to protect myself as part of that vulnerable population?

Please wrap your head around the fact that it is not only parents of school age children who feel this way about mandating vaccinations. NO consequences for those of us in this situation. However, because I believe in choice, I will stand with these parents as an elderly person. You see I have nothing to lose by it.

Edit: Do you think these parents themselves are up to date on their own vaccinations if they do not want to vaccinate their children? Are these mothers getting their Tdap or Flu vax with each pregnancy? Are their husbands too?

Last edited by Jo48; 08-10-2015 at 07:21 AM..

 
Old 08-10-2015, 07:51 AM
 
5,644 posts, read 3,196,510 times
Reputation: 6628
Are they going to mandate this for public school too in the near future? Chlamydia Vaccine.

Cost-effectiveness of Chlamydia Vaccination Programs for Young Women - Volume 21, Number 6
 
Old 08-10-2015, 08:28 AM
 
Location: Marquette, Mich
1,022 posts, read 384,204 times
Reputation: 2322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Edit: Do you think these parents themselves are up to date on their own vaccinations if they do not want to vaccinate their children? Are these mothers getting their Tdap or Flu vax with each pregnancy? Are their husbands too?
In my case, with both pregnancies, a resounding YES. In fact, I remember clearly waiting in a line in 2003, when there was an initial shortage of the flu vaccine, with dozens of other pregnant women. We were all voluntarily doing so to keep ourselves, and our babies, healthy. Not all of us are head-in-the-sand denial junkies. My husband has always been up to date on his vaccinations and gets a flu shot annually. Interestingly, even though the shot was a poor match this past year, I am the only one in my office who got one, and the only one that didn't miss time due to...the flu. Anecdotal, I know. But it was nice not to be sick. Healthy, with a bit of smug satisfaction.

What you fail to put into the equation is everyone but yourself. You couch this as a "choice" issue, but clearly speak about yourself and how it impacts you. I would like you to understand that I am not just concerned with myself and my immediate circle. I am concerned for my community, both local and global. As vaccination levels drop, more people WILL get sick, some seriously. This is entirely preventable! And a measles outbreak may have absolutely no impact on me personally--but I care a great deal about the impact it has on others. I don't live in a bubble.

And I wish some of you would stop talking about this as though I am a germaphobe, terrified of every sneeze and cough. I am not terrified of anything but preventable loss being undermined by willful ignorance. It breaks my heart to hear people talking about how "safe" these illnesses are and how they're "no big deal." Please understand that for those it impacts seriously, it is a big deal. An enormous deal. If nothing else, please acknowledge that these "choices" will impact others in a negative way.

One more word on the whole HPV thing. It is entirely possible to get your pap smears religiously and end up with cancer. I NEVER skipped mine, and I had a time-bomb on my cervix. I had very alarming dysplasia that my doctor explained was literally on the threshold of becoming cancer--he said at that point it was almost a matter of interpretation. So, no, I didn't technically have cancer--but I had a lot of the same treatment and protocols to follow, which took a lot of time and took a toll on my psyche. Plus, it was expensive--to me & my insurer. So, it IS misleading to say pap smears are "preventing" cancer. They are nothing more than an alert--whether it's a red alert or a yellow alert is all that's possible. So preventing the virus that causes most cervical cancer and pre-cancer, plus all of the other cancers it can prevent--that's so important.

And reactions to vaccines--please look at the big picture. If you talk about raw VAERS data, you're missing most of the picture. First of all, it's SELF-REPORTING, which means anything I personally feel is caused by the vaccination, I can report. Does anyone believe EVERYTHING is actually caused by the vaccine? And I don't mean that people are lying--I think a lot, if not most, of the people reporting believe what they are saying. But that doesn't make it TRUE. For example--I get migraines; if I get a vaccination, then experience the worst migraine I've ever had, is it from the vaccine? I may report it, but that does not mean the vaccine CAUSED it. I remember when the Gardasil scare happened, I read through dozens of reports and looked on websites for any information I could find. Some of the stories were so sad--desperate. There was one in particular where the parents denied their daughter took BCP, but it turned out she did AND smoked. They didn't want to believe any of that. She was high risk genetically as well. Still, the mother blamed the Gardasil--she BELIEVED it. Denied her daughter took BCP or smoked and said she'd "continue fighting." Gardasil didn't cause that young woman's death. It's no less tragic. But there are all sorts of things that young people do--they don't eat, drink an energy drink, then pass out getting a shot. That doesn't mean the vaccine CAUSED it. Listen, if something happens to my children, I want there to be someone to blame. It's human nature to need a scapegoat. But that doesn't make all those stories true. You have to look at other risk factors. You have to look at overall rates of death. You have to look beyond what you believe for actual facts to support it--then you must be willing to give it up if the facts (not the opinions or feelings or beliefs) don't support it.

Tomorrow, if a definitive, scientific report came out suggesting a real link between flu shots and death, I would look very closely at it to see if I needed to modify my behavior. But I WILL wait for factual, reliable, responsible information. My gut tells me I'll wait a really long time.
 
Old 08-10-2015, 08:34 AM
 
8,542 posts, read 5,264,452 times
Reputation: 9105
I found one of the earlier news articles about the terrible situation and serious symptoms that more then 300 girls in Columbia experienced post HPV vaccination. More details then later articles.

Mystery illness plagues girls in Colombia
Quote:
First their hands and feet feel cold. Then they go pale and cannot move. Some convulse and fall to the floor. Some have even lost consciousness.
Quote:
She passed out seven times in a month.
Quote:
370 minors have checked into the facility
Quote:
They brought me to the hospital 16 times last month," said Beatriz Martinez.
Quote:
For the 15-year-old, it all started with headaches and backaches. Then her legs and hands gave in as well, forcing her mother to help her take baths.
Quote:
The teenage girls affected by the mysterious malaise no longer go outside. Some don't even leave their homes.
Quote:
"I am desperate," said William Montes, a farmer who traveled down a mountain with his two daughters in a hammock to get them treated in town.
Merck and officials deny that it's anything other then "mass hysteria".

The reactions were serious and long lasting. Not just a quick fainting episode or hyperventilating from "mass hysteria".

Anyone who takes the time to listen to people's stories about what happened to them after receiving their HPV injections will see that they all report the same types of symptoms and all deal with long term effects. They are all dismissed by the vaccine makers. Thankfully some officials are finally starting to listen in Europe, Denmark and Japan. Instead of doing a true investigation, RI is mandating HPV vaccination and some people are blindly supporting it without a second thought.
 
Old 08-10-2015, 09:14 AM
 
8,308 posts, read 8,583,412 times
Reputation: 25929
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Both of which are very rare. Just so you know, you can get the equivalent of a pap for your anus. Can anal cancer be found early? Especially important for those who are on the receiving end of anal sex.

What are the key statistics about penile cancer?

Your analogy doesn't measure up. Insurance does not prevent people from being hurt, killed or injured in car accidents. It's all about finances which are not relevant to vaccines when discussing mandates for HPV, and shouldn't be used as a justification for mandates for vaccines for any illness. No one is mandating that people stop driving. People are mandating that teens get their HPV vaccine.

I knew that some people would nit pick and take the info out of context rather then reading the entire piece like I did. The fact of the matter is that anal and penile cancers are very rare and things like having HIV, smoking, anal sex, etc. increase that risk greatly. The threat of HPV does not warrant mandates.



Of course they do. Endorsing, recommending and educating are fine because they all involve choice. Mandates are not fine. There is no reason to mandate the HPV vaccine. Did you notice that they only recommend the vaccine for girls? Why not boys? Men are the only ones at risk for penile cancer and their risk for getting Anal cancer is nearly as high as it is for women. Why only for girls?

I get that you like the HPV vaccine and that you were happy to give it to your children but what justification do you have for mandating the vaccine for all as a requirement for school entry for all children?
You think your post is being "taken out of context" when people directly rebut your primary arguments? Your major point in that post where you quoted all that material from the ACS was to try and show that there were numerous risk factors for several cancers. I responded by stating that if you read the ACS literature properly, you'd see that HPV was the primary risk factor for three of the cancers you keep trying to minimize.

My car insurance analogy is directly on point with mandated vaccination. States require car insurance to protect innocent third parties who may become involved in an accident with a careless driver. Vaccination is mandated to create herd immunity that protects innocent people who cannot vaccinate, for whom vaccination does not produce sufficient immunity, and who are immune compromised.

I have heard some of the anti-vaxxers talk about how "invasive" getting a shot is and that its an invasion of your body. If you pap smear done, its a little more invasive. You have to have a speculum inserted in your vagina and cells have to be taken from your cervix to be studied. A vaccine that has been proven to be safe and effective is a better choice for an 8-12 year old girl even if a pap smear were a true means of preventing those cancers.

The ACS "recommends" the vaccine because it is not a legislative body. Only governmental bodies can make laws or issue mandates. Do you understand that? I can guarantee you there were plenty of people on the advisory panel for the ACS who would have been happy mandating the vaccine.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
I don't need to rebut it because I already presented plenty of information to the contrary. The risk of someone getting cancer from HPV is extremely low. There is absolutely no need or reason for the mandate. People can choose to get the vaccine. Mandating people to get the vaccination is way over the top. Overkill. Completely unnecessary. Many people have reported serious injurious from the HPV vaccine. Even if only half of their stories were true, it would still be a serious concern.


Just because MS and WV haven't done" whatever they want", yet does not mean that it's not coming. Mandating HPV is a huge step in that direction. If you haven't yet grasped the difference between the meaning of the word "choice" and "coercion" yet then there is no hope that you ever will. The consequences of catching HPV are not actually that serious. The vast majority of HPV clears up on it's own. HPV is common, cancer caused by HPV is not common. Most people who are infected with HPV won't develop a cancer related to HPV. Regular pap screenings are extremely effective in preventing cervical cancer. There is no way to justify a mandate for HPV. I suspect you'll even see backlash from those are very pro-vax over the addition of the HPV vaccine to the list of mandates.
Wow. I must have been asleep when you provided all that information! I have heard some anecdotes and stories that don't mean anything.

We both know you haven't done any such thing. The most you've done here in all these weeks/months is question other research that's been done. You haven't come up with anything that even borders on persuasive.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
First, your own state of Washington failed to pass legislation similar to California's mandatory vaccination. Maybe you can get that Federal Bill passed instead mandating every single child in the USA be vaccinated for everything under sun, including any new ones in the works? Then you will have 100% Herd Immunity!

What are my consequences? I don't have young children to be kept out of public schools. I am retired and cannot be fired from my job. I don't have my own personal doctor who will be drop or report me for not being up to date on whatever vaccinations my "weakening elderly immune system" needs so I won't be hospitalized or die from the flu, whooping cough, or maybe even diphtheria or tetanus?

We keep saying this for the millionth time. You, and the health care professionals on here, can smugly talk about mandating vaccinations for public school kids or home schooling, but that will not keep these children, and especially ADULTS, out of society. Plus, you will never know who they are. Maybe wear a mask out in public? Maybe in addition to running out right now and getting all those vax I have missed over 50 years, I should also wear that mask out in public to protect myself as part of that vulnerable population?

Please wrap your head around the fact that it is not only parents of school age children who feel this way about mandating vaccinations. NO consequences for those of us in this situation. However, because I believe in choice, I will stand with these parents as an elderly person. You see I have nothing to lose by it.

Edit: Do you think these parents themselves are up to date on their own vaccinations if they do not want to vaccinate their children? Are these mothers getting their Tdap or Flu vax with each pregnancy? Are their husbands too?
My theory about Washington and other states is that we'll eventually get a vaccination law without exemptions in those places too. It just takes time. The California law will increase vaccination rates and when that happens other states will start to take notice. About 10% of the US population lives in CA, so that is a great start.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
I found one of the earlier news articles about the terrible situation and serious symptoms that more then 300 girls in Columbia experienced post HPV vaccination. More details then later articles.

Mystery illness plagues girls in Colombia








Merck and officials deny that it's anything other then "mass hysteria".

The reactions were serious and long lasting. Not just a quick fainting episode or hyperventilating from "mass hysteria".

Anyone who takes the time to listen to people's stories about what happened to them after receiving their HPV injections will see that they all report the same types of symptoms and all deal with long term effects. They are all dismissed by the vaccine makers. Thankfully some officials are finally starting to listen in Europe, Denmark and Japan. Instead of doing a true investigation, RI is mandating HPV vaccination and some people are blindly supporting it without a second thought.
There are reasons I accept the explanation of "mass hysteria".

First of all, if this were a problem being caused by the vaccine than you'd see the same thing happening all over America. You'd see it especially in a state like Rhode Island that requires the vaccine.

Second, I've stated before my wife used to give vaccinations at health department clinics. She saw examples of hysteria every so often. It was never limited to one vaccination. Its not uncommon for a few people to faint when they start seeing needles. Its not uncommon for others to faint when they see people in front of them getting a vaccination either. Its something you have to be prepared for if you give dozens of immunizations a day and thousands over a long period of time.

Third, what you don't seem to understand is that if the vaccine were truly causing these problems it would be impossible to keep it secret in America. We have a free press. These things are constantly being looked into and studied. If any medicine causes serious problems, the FDA would have to pull it from the market, or at least impose serious restrictions on how its given.

Last edited by markg91359; 08-10-2015 at 10:04 AM..
 
Old 08-10-2015, 09:20 AM
 
Location: Earth
4,506 posts, read 5,256,024 times
Reputation: 4933
The car insurance comparison is NOT fitting!

A better comparison would be mandating everyone be on Antibuse because SOME people are alcoholics!
 
Old 08-10-2015, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Upstate NY
30,418 posts, read 9,092,686 times
Reputation: 28956
Of course, mass hysteria is a fact (most recently, the LeRoy girls). So is our vaccine injury court, which has been doling out settlements for decades, without as much as a peep from "the press." Let us know next time that's featured on the evening news.
 
Old 08-10-2015, 09:39 AM
 
8,542 posts, read 5,264,452 times
Reputation: 9105
Wow, Mark. That bolded text was hurting my eyes. What's the purpose of that? Desperation? Yelling? I will respond in a more reasonable tone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
You think your post is being "taken out of context" when people directly rebut your primary arguments? Your major point in that post where you quoted all that material from the ACS was to try and show that there were numerous risk factors for several cancers. I responded by stating that if you read the ACS literature properly, you'd see that HPV was the primary risk factor for three of the cancers you keep trying to minimize.
You did take things out of context when you nit picked for info rather then taking it all as a whole, like I did. You then had the audacity to accuse me of being the one to not read the info when I presented it as a whole rather then just the parts, like you did. Context matters and I presented the info in context.

Quote:
My car insurance analogy is directly on point with mandated vaccination. States require car insurance to protect innocent third parties who may become involved in an accident with a careless driver. Vaccination is mandated to create herd immunity that protects innocent people who cannot vaccinate, for whom vaccination does not produce sufficient immunity, and who are immune compromised.
Sorry but it's not. Car insurance is designed to protect against FINANCIAL losses. It is not about health or injuries or deaths. Buying car insurance does not require people to inject substances into their bodies either. Your analogy is flawed and it fails, even when you type it in bold letters.

Quote:
I have heard some of the anti-vaxxers talk about how "invasive" getting a shot is and that its an invasion of your body. If you pap smear done, its a little more invasive. You have to have a speculum inserted in your vagina and cells have to be taken from your cervix to be studied. A vaccine that has been proven to be safe and effective is a better choice for an 8-12 year old girl even if a pap smear were a true means of preventing those cancers.
Have you ever had a pap, Mark? It's not a big deal. When they remove the speculum they don't leave anything behind. Vaccines leave toxins along with many other things inside of one's body. That is intrusive. Paps do prevent cancer. That's a fact.

Quote:
The ACS "recommends" the vaccine because it is not a legislative body. Only governmental bodies can make laws or issue mandates. Do you understand that? I can guarantee you there were plenty of people on the advisory panel for the ACS who would have been happy mandating the vaccine.
Yes. I understand this. Plenty of doctors and researchers and legislators are not in favor of HPV mandates. Plenty understand that mandates for the HPV vaccine are not necessary and are overkill. Plenty understand and value choice.

Quote:
Wow. I must have been asleep when you provided all that information!
You must have been, Mark. Not my problem that you missed it (or rather, ignored it).

Quote:
We both know you haven't done any such thing. The most you've done here in all these weeks/months is question other research that's been done. You haven't come up with anything that even borders on persuasive.
Your false accusations against me, even when typed in bold do not make them true.

Quote:
There are reasons I accept the explanation of "mass hysteria".

First of all, if this were a problem being caused by the vaccine than you'd see the same thing happening all over America. You'd see it especially in a state like Rhode Island that requires the vaccine.
The same symptoms have been reported worldwide by girls post HPV vaccination. Fortunately though not in a large cluster like what happened in Columbia. RI's mandate has yet to kick in. Maybe we will see this happen here, in RI soon.

Quote:
Second, I've stated before my wife used to give vaccinations at health department clinics. She saw examples of hysteria every so often. It was never limited to one vaccination. Its not uncommon for a few people to faint when they start seeing needles. Its not uncommon for others to faint when they see people in front of them getting a vaccination either. Its something you have to be prepared for if you give dozens of immunizations a day and thousands over a long period of time.
You're downplaying the severity of the reactions if you think it was just a few girls fainting and then recovering. Did you even read the articles? Did you watch the documentary from Denmark? Did you listen to any stories from girls about their experiences with the HPV vaccine?

Quote:
Third, what you don't seem to understand is that if the vaccine were truly causing these problems it would be impossible to keep it secret in America. We have a free press. These things are constantly being looked into and studied. If any medicine causes serious problems, the FDA would have to pull it from the market, or at least impose serious restrictions on how its given.
Yeah, right. That is a very nave statement.
 
Old 08-10-2015, 10:00 AM
 
Location: BC, Arizona
1,170 posts, read 747,863 times
Reputation: 2377
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post

Have you ever had a pap, Mark? It's not a big deal. When they remove the speculum they don't leave anything behind. Vaccines leave toxins along with many other things inside of one's body. That is intrusive. Paps do prevent cancer. That's a fact.

...

You're downplaying the severity of the reactions if you think it was just a few girls fainting and then recovering. Did you even read the articles? Did you watch the documentary from Denmark? Did you listen to any stories from girls about their experiences with the HPV vaccine?

Yeah, right. That is a very nave statement.
First of all, Paps are intrusive and not without "trauma" and stress.

You accuse another poster of not following your links to stories, when you admittedly have no interest in medical studies that have been linked that prove that the very stories you link to are without merit. (Anyone who missed it, MissTerri stated above that she didn't care about medical studies in relation to a medical issue).

Are you truly unable to see the incongruence in your view? Stories may help us ask better questions (which have been answered above) - they aren't "answers" themselves.

My girls and the majority of their grade 7 classmates had the vaccine (over 200) and there were no reactions whatsoever. I wouldn't allege without science that meant it was safe, I'd need studies. Why don't you require the same to determine it's unsafe?

All of us who are pro-vaccination have said that if the risk profile changed related to the vaccines we would consider that medical evidence and decide whether to choose to vaccinate our children or not. Thousands and thousands of studies proving vaccine efficacy and safety, but to you searching a few links to unverified "stories" is MORE compelling. Right...

 
Old 08-10-2015, 11:04 AM
 
5,644 posts, read 3,196,510 times
Reputation: 6628
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlvancouver View Post
So MissTerri, you dismiss the risk of penile cancer (1 in a hundred thousand) as "very rare" even though it is 10 times higher than the risk of a severe adverse reaction to childhood vaccines that prevent more than 14 deadly and debilitating diseases (not even including hpv).

You do understand that 1 in a hundred thousand getting CANCER is a higher risk than 1 in a million having a reaction to medicine that SAVES thousands of lives.

Mind boggling really.
Weigh BOTH risks. 1 in a hundred thousand getting cancer is a VERY LOW risk itself. You don't understand risk taking from the other point of view. You focus on the negative risk and not the POSITIVE risk factor. It is very much the same with the Shingles risk, which Suzy discussed also. 1 in 3 chance. That also is a low risk factor. She said over 85 is at the most risk. Well, you have to MAKE IT to age 85 first, don't you think?

Hepatitis B. is another very low risk, especially for newborn babies. Oh, they MIGHT get 20, 30, 40 years later if they are drug addicts? That is the same with the HPV vaccination. All these are very LOW risk factors. My own kids were never vaccinated for Hep. B when it became to be "recommended" back in the 90's. Again, low risk factors. Well, they are in their 30's now and don't have Hep. B. Was I right for refusing that? I most definitely would have refused that HPV if they were teens today. Neither has cervical cancer either today. Just plain LUCK?

The medical community wants this to be ALL vaccines. Well, it does not always work out that way. Parents might want most, but not ALL vaccinations the CDC says. You want a very good example? Try the INFLUENZA vaccination. That one is very, very low on the "must have" list. Yet, with these mandatory vaccinations you don't want a parent (teachers?) to be able to opt out of a Flu shot too?

This is not a one size fits all argument. You, and the medical community, try to make it all fit into a nice neat package when it really doesn't. People who chose no vaccinations, some, or delayed schedule have many different reasons for doing so. This is why quoting all the science is not going to work.

You can personally me call me an anti-vaxer Granny if you wish, but I am personally opposed to all this useless preventive medicine (hello ACA?) which only drives up insurance rates, and lines the pockets of the medical community, Big Pharms, and insurance companies. Sorry, another thread there.
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