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Old 08-31-2015, 12:07 PM
 
5,653 posts, read 3,202,909 times
Reputation: 6635

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tlvancouver View Post
So poppysead doesn't like big pharma, MissTerri wants "choice" (and doesn't want to be misquoted), and Jo thinks everyone should just get themselves and their kids good and sick, just like the good old days. Since vaccines aren't 100% effective and don't cure every single illness they think we shouldn't vaccinate for deadly illnesses we can prevent. There are some random "just eat your greens and you won't get polio" folks as well.

We get it, 112 pages in its the same anti-science conspiracy drivel. You don't believe proven science and you really really don't like mandates. Got it. Anything new?
\\

I also agree with Poppysead. I don't like Big Pharms because I used to work for one, and KNOW how they operate (1976 Swine Flu "Epidemic", pushing their products for billions in profits). They paid me a very nice SALARY too. HOW??????? Blood money.

I agree with Miss Terri on choice. Vaccinate you and yours up the whazoo if that is your choice, but leave others alone in their decisions not to vaccinate for whatever reasons they have; from the harm due to the chemicals, favoring natural immunity, to the Flying Spaghetti Monster says No. Reason is irrelevant. CHOICE is the bigger issue.

All three camps for me.

 
Old 08-31-2015, 12:32 PM
 
Location: Marquette, Mich
1,022 posts, read 385,382 times
Reputation: 2324
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
\\

I also agree with Poppysead. I don't like Big Pharms because I used to work for one, and KNOW how they operate (1976 Swine Flu "Epidemic", pushing their products for billions in profits). They paid me a very nice SALARY too. HOW??????? Blood money.

I agree with Miss Terri on choice. Vaccinate you and yours up the whazoo if that is your choice, but leave others alone in their decisions not to vaccinate for whatever reasons they have; from the harm due to the chemicals, favoring natural immunity, to the Flying Spaghetti Monster says No. Reason is irrelevant. CHOICE is the bigger issue.

All three camps for me.

And you all have the choice! It's there! You do not like the consequence. Totally different.

Reason is NOT irrelevant! It's completely, utterly, comprehensively relevant. Because so many of those reasons are not scientifically sound. And if you knew anything about Flying Spaghetti Monster, you would know vaccine exemptions are not part of the doctrine. Ramen!

So you worked for the pharmaceutical industry, too? And you selfishly took their money? You profited off the doom of those who were fooled into thinking vaccines were safe? How could you?
 
Old 08-31-2015, 01:55 PM
 
5,653 posts, read 3,202,909 times
Reputation: 6635
Quote:
Originally Posted by leebeemi View Post
And you all have the choice! It's there! You do not like the consequence. Totally different.

Reason is NOT irrelevant! It's completely, utterly, comprehensively relevant. Because so many of those reasons are not scientifically sound. And if you knew anything about Flying Spaghetti Monster, you would know vaccine exemptions are not part of the doctrine. Ramen!

So you worked for the pharmaceutical industry, too? And you selfishly took their money? You profited off the doom of those who were fooled into thinking vaccines were safe? How could you?
I was very young then, and as I said, that Swine Flu Fiasco woke me up. Do you math and think how long ago that was. Dr. Jenny was in diapers then.

I don't like "consequences"? You cannot touch me with your consequences. I have nothing to lose; no young children you can throw out of public schools, no job that you can fire me from with your mandated vaccinations. Nothing.

I do not give a blank,blank, about your "scientific mind". The Nuremberg Codes decided that one a long time ago.

I will continue to support parents of children, and most definitely the adult population, who choose to not vaccinate for whatever reason they decide. If you do not have the freedom of choice for your own body, or your children's, you have no FREEDOM AT ALL.

If you are so terrified of catching some disease, then YOU go out in society wearing a Hazmat Suit to protect YOU. Live in your own little bubble.
 
Old 08-31-2015, 03:22 PM
 
8,313 posts, read 8,593,884 times
Reputation: 25959
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Did you read any of the links that I shared?

What is fiction is your childlike belief that scientific studies cannot be biased skewed, promoted or suppressed due to conflicts of interest.
I read the articles that you shared. There is an element of truth to what you say. Generally speaking, studies can be skewed and data can be portrayed incorrectly. This though is a very different concept than saying that all or most studies are incorrect or invalid.

What is mind boggling to me is for someone to argue that people shouldn't vaccinate because of some general articles that suggest some scientific studies may be skewed.

There is nothing that suggests that the specific studies that support vaccination or the efficacy of a specific vaccination are skewed or defective. For example, eleven separate studies show that the MMR shot does not cause autism. Am I supposed to believe that all eleven of these studies are "skewed" or unreliable?

There is a reason why studies are peer-reviewed. There is a reason why medical journals frequently refuse to publish some studies that are presented to them for publication. They have to meet standards. The results in studies have to be reproducible.

Although I have described it before, you seem oblivious to the high standards that the FDA requires before it will approve medicines for sale and consumption to human beings. Since, you appear to have forgotten much of what has been explained to you, I will repeat it again. A manufacturer seeking to bring a new drug or vaccine onto the market is required to file a "new drug application". Three stages of clinical trials are required before the medication can be considered for approval. First, the medication must be tested on a group of people and shown not to be toxic to the people taking it. Second, the medication must be shown to be effective for the condition for which it is given with a small group of people. Third, the effectiveness trial is repeated with a large group of people. If a pharmaceutical company can document success with all three trials, than and only than, will the FDA approve the vaccine or medicine for public sale and distribution.

Your articles are interesting and I do recognize Lancet as a distinguished medical journal. However, you really have to do a lot better than simply coming up with articles that are generally critical of scientific studies to have any credibility when you assert vaccines are dangerous.
 
Old 08-31-2015, 03:50 PM
 
Location: Marquette, Mich
1,022 posts, read 385,382 times
Reputation: 2324
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
I was very young then, and as I said, that Swine Flu Fiasco woke me up. Do you math and think how long ago that was. Dr. Jenny was in diapers then.

I don't like "consequences"? You cannot touch me with your consequences. I have nothing to lose; no young children you can throw out of public schools, no job that you can fire me from with your mandated vaccinations. Nothing.

I do not give a blank,blank, about your "scientific mind". The Nuremberg Codes decided that one a long time ago.

I will continue to support parents of children, and most definitely the adult population, who choose to not vaccinate for whatever reason they decide. If you do not have the freedom of choice for your own body, or your children's, you have no FREEDOM AT ALL.

If you are so terrified of catching some disease, then YOU go out in society wearing a Hazmat Suit to protect YOU. Live in your own little bubble.
Everyone has that freedom. But there are consequences to opting out.

Nuremberg Codes? Seriously? You need a tinfoil hat more than I need a hazmat suit.

Parents may choose what they like. But not without giving up certain privileges. You want everyone to have their cake and eat it too. Except for those who can't vaccinate for legitimate reasons. To hell with them! They should choose not to have allergies, or cancer, or whatever is preventing them from getting protected. No, they are on their own because some other idiot decides it just doesn't feel right, contrary to every piece of evidence to the contrary.

And I will tell you again, I am not terrified for myself. This is a public health issue. And I honestly do care what happens to people I don't even know. I don't care whether you or any others believe that. I live in this world, and I am saddened when we can do better, but choose not to.
 
Old 08-31-2015, 04:04 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,526 posts, read 26,146,877 times
Reputation: 26519
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I had my 12 year old in for her 6th grade shots. I opted to only have the tdap... actually I demanded it be a td.... simply because I thought tetanus was an important thing to vaccinate against. She had the shot and it was less painful and traumatic than her ear piercings.. her words not mine. So you are telling me that fainting and seizures are normal after shots in tweens and teens?

I don't by that an ear piercing specialist had that many kids faint in their care. As a mom, my kid fainting would be one thing but convulsing? Even the manufacturer admits that the shot makes them faint and convulse... why? Do you know?
The irony is that your daughter is more likely to get pertussis than tetanus. Talk about flawed risk/benefit analysis!

There is a slightly increased risk of fainting with HPV vaccine than other vaccines. It can easily be managed by observing the patient for a short time after the shot. Hyperventilation from anxiety can cause muscle twitching that is not a true seizure.

There is no evidence that fainting from HPV vaccination causes any long term damage or causes epilepsy.

There is, by the way, an interesting new line of research on childhood epilepsy implicating HPV 16 as a cause.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/811258_2

Further confirmatory studies are needed, but vaccinating women (prior to pregnancy) against HPV 16 (which is prevented by both Gardasil and Cervarix) could actually prevent some cases of childhood epilepsy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
You do not know that vaccines did NOT have something to do with her daughters allergies.
A food allergy is more likely to be due to eating the food than to a vaccine. The food would contain much larger quantities of protein antigen than the vaccine.

Quote:
Ummmm.... sensitivity to certain foods do span generations. If your mom or dad had an allergy to food then you are 50% likely to share that allergy or even another one! Genetic Studies of Food Allergies Research Program, Congressionally Directed Medical Research Programs
That is not in your link. All it said was than 50% of people who have food allergies have reactions due to accidental exposures.

People may have a genetic predisposition to allergies. That does not mean that if your mother is allergic to peanuts that you will be allergic to peanuts.


Quote:
I worked in the ER as a phlebotomist (poking needles in people) for over 10 years. I saw more kids in the ER for suicide and Tylenol overdose (and drunk adults) than any other malady. You can't tell me that fainting after an injection is NORMAL. It isn't. Millions of people in the ER are routinely given IVs and without fainting. Millions of people get vaccines without fainting. Why is the HPV vaccine the one that specifically lists fainting and requires doctors to monitor for said fainting for 15 minutes. We are not talking about getting a 3-12 shot regimen then fainting. The HPV vaccine is the only vaccine that warns specifically against fainting. Why? That is not normal.
This one is easy. The HPV vaccine is not the only one for which fainting is a possibility. Any vaccine or injection can trigger the reflex that causes someone to faint.

Fainting (Syncope) Concerns | Vaccine Safety | CDC

No one knows why vaccinations tend to make some people faint, but fainting in and of itself is not dangerous. It is just necessary to prevent falls, which may cause injuries.


Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
The HPV vaccine doesn't prevent cancer... even the manufacturers don't make such a ridiculous statement.
Wrong.

The FDA lists prevention of cancer as an indication for the vaccine.

Gardasil

You do not understand the pathophysiology of these cancers. HPV vaccines have already been shown to prevent the precancerous stage of cervical cancer - dysplasia - which is necessary for invasive cancers to occur. If you prevent the dysplasia, you will prevent the cancer.

Quote:
Your reading comprehension is just terrible. I used the hospital experience to show that as someone who stuck needles into people for a living never had someone faint. The fainting from the HPV vaccine is from the ingredients not the needle.
Since it happens with vaccines with different ingredients and with other injections, it's the injection that's causing it.

If you were an inpatient phlebotomist, most of the people you stuck were probably already lying down, in which case they would not faint.

Quote:
I said doctors will claim vaccines had nothing to do with --insert ailment-- that showed up after vaccination. If they didn't know what caused it, how can they possibly know what didn't cause it??? It is not my statement that is ridiculous, it is the doctor's.
When vaccines (or medications) cause problems, it tends to be the same problem, not scores of different conditions. Studies done with people who are monitored after receiving vaccines and for whom medical records are available are just not picking up increased risks of all the various conditions being blamed on vaccines. That is how vaccines were shown not to cause autism and how the rotavirus vaccine was shown to increase the risk of intussusception.

If a thousand people develop a thousand different conditions after getting vaccinated, the odds are that the vaccines are not responsible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Went grocery shopping today at Publix. Saw sign FLU SHOTS available right now outside!!!! August? Nobody lining up for them. Besides which, there is the threat of Erica Hurricane/Tropical Storm here in South Florida. Supermarket dead as a door nail. If people are not in a PANIC over a Hurricane, they certainly aren't going to be beating down doors for their Flu Shots. lol
You can get flu year round. By taking the vaccine in August or September, people are protected when the flu season really starts, usually in October. It is really not a difficult concept for most of us to understand .

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
The same as you sending your kid to school while he can still spread the flu, which happens every school year. FYI, more kids die from the flu. Your kids are way more likely to get shot at school than get the Measles, Mumps or Rubela pre mandate. The cry that the small amount of unvaccinated kids will one day kill yours is ludicrous. Why not just ban drivers licenses until kids are 20. That would save a lot more. It's not about saving kids lives, it's about earning money, maxing profit, and keeping the bottom line fed. Read some financials. For profit mandates, harm children too. Propaganda bs. Nuts how many people buy it after all those documentaries on America's for profit healthcare system that is our 3rd largest killer. Reality check plz.
If you vaccinate your kid against flu, the risk he will spread it goes way down. Kids get colds and GI bugs for which there are no vaccines. That is not a reason to avoid vaccines for things we can prevent, like pertussis and measles.

Countries with socialized medicine have vaccine mandates, too, as you have been told repeatedly. That kills your "for profit" argument. Repeating it does not make it valid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TXNGL View Post
I do have a question, as a pro-vaccine person. I've also noticed flu vaccine announcements at the local pharmacies this past month (August). They're out that quickly now? Is it last year's vaccine? Honest question. I'm middle aged and in the past I've been offered the vaccination by my doctor around November or so.
No, it is this year's vaccine. It is best to get it before the flu season is really under way, which is usually in October. Too many people wait until their friends and coworkers start getting sick to take it. Then it's too late because they have already been exposed and they come down with flu before the vaccine has time to work. That is why many people think the vaccine caused the flu. (It does not.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
So true, parents send their kids to school while still contagious with flu and stomach bugs which there are no vaccines for. It is ludicrous to think that a small number of unvaccinated kids are such a huge threat. I also agree about for profit mandates. This is not about safety, its about money. Too many people are buying the propaganda.
There is a vaccine for flu.

I thought you said that the mandate only affected a "small minority" of children. How does that translate into gigantic profits?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
Yep, it seems our biggest threat is job loss. A lot of people are employed at pharma companies, and a lot of the 1% make their money doling out meds. The promotion of all those pain meds has now led to addicted housewives who are a mess. It's a vicious cycle. So many of us die from drug side effects and from drug interactions now. The price we pay for listening to doctors who help promote drugs for some cash. We are definitely an over medicated society. But, jobs, jobs, jobs matter.
Countries with socialized medicine use vaccines, too.

By the way, doctors do not get paid to prescribe medications in the US. That's a big no no.

Quote:
There is a pill, vaccine or treatment for everything under the sun! Some people are finally noticing that we can't do this to ourselves though and a movement of people learning to take care of themselves and use natural alternatives is growing because of it. Hopefully we will find a balance one day. Eat right, exercise, and above all don't think a pill solves all your problems.
Eating right and exercising will not prevent a single disease for which there is a vaccine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leebeemi View Post
I do think there's been an over-cleansing of our environments. But that's because I read a report on a study YEARS ago about the detrimental effect anti-biotic everything was having on children's immune systems. But that study had nothing to do with vaccinations. Just the robust nature of the human immune system. It had more to do with demanding an antibiotic every time a child had the sniffles. Dust bunnies are a sign of love, in my book, and I care enough to let my kids get dirty. They are very, very healthy. But I also believe in preventing horrible illnesses that HAVE had serious, even deadly, consequences for generations of children.
The problem with antibiotics is not due to an effect on the human immune system, it's an effect on bacteria themselves. Not all antibiotics kill bacteria. many just suppress bacterial growth and the immune system does the rest. However, bacteria that are not killed can develop resistance to the antibiotic. It's evolution in action. Any antibiotic prescription should be taken exactly as directed, all of it, and none should be saved for a later occasion or shared with anyone for whom it was not written.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
I am definitely not the one buying the propaganda which is making people believe that there is a huge risk from a small number of unvaccinated, or partially vaccinated kids; a fear that allows some to think they are justified to take parents right to choose away and give that power to the state. This is a well funded push for routine vaccinations with no option to opt out. Whooping cough can and will continue to spread despite forced vaccinations on children and adults alike. That's a fact. Measles and mumps will continue to spread as well. Flu will continue to spread even with forced flu vaccinations, so will cervical cancer with forced HPV vaccinations. Don't be fooled by the propaganda that you bought into and don't let your fear legislate people's freedom away.

It's about money. Look at how much money Senator Pan received in CA from pharmaceutical companies. Look at what other industries the pharmaceutical companies fund in CA. There is so much money at stake it's not even funny and that is what this is about. It's absolutely foolish to think that these pharmaceutical companies that are pushing for these mandates care about our safety. Get real.
Parents still have the choice not to vaccinate. Your insistence otherwise is becoming monotonous.

The option to not vaccinate still exists.

Increasing vaccination rates will indeed reduce the spread of whooping cough. The experience in Mississippi and W. Virginia shows that. Those two states have not had any measles cases in many years. HPV infection rates are already down, and preventing HPV will inevitably prevent cervical cancer. That is totally predictable because of the pathophysiology of cervical cancer.

As you are aware, the effectiveness of flu vaccine varies from year to year; however, taking it does, in most years, significantly reduce the risk of getting flu.

The ant-vax contingent spent plenty of lobbying money, too.

I am still waiting for you to explain how vaccinating a "small minority" results in "so much money" being "at stake."

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
Of course not, I wouldn't want to write off the whole industry. But, maybe if we'd make our healthcare system non profit we'd just use the drugs we needed. Sometimes the risks and side effects are worth it. You have to make choices and weigh it out. But, the days of listening to your doc are gone. Even doctors agree now that you have to take your medical needs into your own hands and get second sometimes third opinions, look at the pros and cons of treatment and above all make lifestyle changes. Doctors sell drugs, and pharma promotes and lobbies drugs to doctors and hospitals. They make money, so you need to go beyond the advice and make your own choices. Everyone is human at the end of the day and it's your health and life. The days are gone of blindly listening to whatever your physician thinks is best. They make too many mistakes for that.
Every patient should understand exactly what the benefits and risks of any medical treatment are. However, the recommendation of a physician with years of training and experience trumps your internet "research" and "stories" every time.

Quote:
This is why I think mandates are a bad idea. It takes away reasonable choice and replaces it with harassment and coercion. Holding your child's school hostage until you do what your told isn't a great way of promoting health to me. To much room for mistakes. The parents for this in my opinion are over reacting to the media and it's become an easy way for Pharma to capitalize on this fear and make extra money through mandates. They pay state governments to entice them into pushing these mandates, I think it's gone overboard. You can see cases of this all over this country and it's not a secret. The majority already vaccinated, and those who don't would be better served getting some honest information about VAERS cases, and the illnesses these vaccines claim to prevent. Plus the long lasting effects and trade offs of trying to rid the world of disease. Instead they get forced, hated and mandated. It's not a great social climate though not much is in this generation. It seems we battle instead of communicate effectively right now about a lot of things. Hopefully it's just a fad, and we can get back to listening one day.
As MissTerri has pointed out, we are talking about a relatively small number of children affected by mandates. There is really not a whole lot of money at stake for the drug companies.

The VAERS claims are investigated. Those claims just do not show that vaccines cause all of the conditions that parents are convinced that they do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
There are articles about vaccines creating super diseases as well by some concerned scientist, people read those too.
What "super diseases"? Sources are needed.

Quote:
Plus our pharma companies have less than stellar records for providing safe drugs, and giving complete information on them, hence the new commercials requiring those details they use to leave out.
Any drug can have side effects and complications. The vast majority of people take medications of all kinds with no problems whatsoever.

Quote:
The latest craze NSADS have now been around long enough for long term studies. Guess what, people where right they do cause more heart attacks and strokes. Tylenol and alcohol, long term found to be a bad idea. These drugs on the short term where touted by doctors and pharma as the cure all for pain, and people pop them like candy. After a lot of failed livers and heart attacks we now know that's not such a good idea. You'd be better off using heat on that sore muscle or take a hot shower for that headache, especially if it's from drinking. It's dangerous to assume that just because doctors push vaccines they are safe enough to mandate. History will prove you wrong on this one. We need to learn from our mistakes.
Funny thing about that: what you are describing is an example of how medical recommendations change as new information becomes available.

History has already proven that vaccines are safe and effective.

Quote:
If someone thinks they know a vaccine will have a bad effect on their child then it should be their choice without threats of no public education because as history proves they might very well be correct.
If someone "thinks they know a vaccine will have a bad effect on their child" with absolutely no valid reason to believe it, he will just have to accept the need to make alternative education plans for his child.

Quote:
Just because you believe that they are safe doesn't mean others have to follow, some think taking an antibiotic for every cold is best. They should have the same choices you do. Sometimes you have to let people make up their own minds, even if it puts you at risk. Trust me, they don't have a hard time finding a doc or nurse that will give it to them. We do that for a plethora of things, vaccines are no different. The only difference is they are sold by mega companies who's bottom line in our for profit system is money. Who lobby and pay doctors money to promote their product. To mandate something that's profitable to another is questionable. I can see why people question it. Forcing it down their throats is clearly not a good answer. There are other ways to show people unwilling to vaccinate the pros to doing so. If they think it's right for their child they will get it. If they think their child is more prone to serious side effects because of a siblings reaction or their own then they should be allowed to decide without someone holding their kids school hostage for their decision. That's manipulating their judgement.
Countries with socialized medicine give the same vaccines that the US does. Australia has recently passed stiff financial penalties for not vaccinating. Your "for profit" argument is dead in the water.

Anyone who does not wish to vaccinate will not be forced to do so. He just has to accept that a "feeling" that a child might possibly have an adverse reaction to a vaccine will not justify a medical exemption.

Quote:
These mandates are not going to protect anyone. We will still have outbreaks. People convicted will still refuse them and they will homeschool. They will also go to your stores, parks, and public restrooms. They will however further the problem you're concerned with, and will push the unvaccinated into larger groups instead of spreading them out so that herd immunity can protect everyone. It's not like you can mandate a large quarantine for the unvaxed or make tent cities for them like we did the Japanese. Historically we make bad decisions based on fear. This isn't the first time, and unfortunately it won't be the last.
Mississippi and W. Virginia have strict mandates, no measles, and low rates of pertussis compared to areas of the country with weaker mandates and high exemption rates. Mandates do protect us.

Higher vaccination rates do prevent outbreaks. When herd immunity is high, single cases have no susceptible hosts to spread to. That's Epidemiology 101.

The reference to Japanese internment is egregious and uncalled for. It just makes you look petulant.

Quote:
At the same time we are legalizing pot in more and more states. Guns of course have enough lobbying to stay around, backed by some large businesses. Money seems to speak volumes. Public health really doesn't seem to be forefront in our quest, it appears to be money. Mandated vaccines give incentives to pharma to keep up production, or yes they would not make enough money without them some of them threatened to drop production which is why we are seeing mandates, they are incentives.

Marijuana seems to bring in money to states, so yes, everyone can make their own decisions to smoke that. Makes no sense if you look at it from a health prospective but makes a lot of sense when you look at it from a financial perspective.
We are not talking about pot or guns. Please stay on topic.

The threat to drop vaccine production was because of the costs of defending lawsuits, which is high even when the drug company wins. That is why we have a no fault system to compensate people with real vaccine injuries. Mandates had nothing to do with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
What is fiction is your childlike belief that scientific studies cannot be biased skewed, promoted or suppressed due to conflicts of interest.
Poor scientific studies get found out. That is why Wakefield bit the dust.
 
Old 08-31-2015, 04:25 PM
 
8,545 posts, read 5,271,345 times
Reputation: 9115
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
I read the articles that you shared. There is an element of truth to what you say. Generally speaking, studies can be skewed and data can be portrayed incorrectly. This though is a very different concept than saying that all or most studies are incorrect or invalid.

What is mind boggling to me is for someone to argue that people shouldn't vaccinate because of some general articles that suggest some scientific studies may be skewed.

There is nothing that suggests that the specific studies that support vaccination or the efficacy of a specific vaccination are skewed or defective. For example, eleven separate studies show that the MMR shot does not cause autism. Am I supposed to believe that all eleven of these studies are "skewed" or unreliable?

There is a reason why studies are peer-reviewed. There is a reason why medical journals frequently refuse to publish some studies that are presented to them for publication. They have to meet standards. The results in studies have to be reproducible.

Although I have described it before, you seem oblivious to the high standards that the FDA requires before it will approve medicines for sale and consumption to human beings. Since, you appear to have forgotten much of what has been explained to you, I will repeat it again. A manufacturer seeking to bring a new drug or vaccine onto the market is required to file a "new drug application". Three stages of clinical trials are required before the medication can be considered for approval. First, the medication must be tested on a group of people and shown not to be toxic to the people taking it. Second, the medication must be shown to be effective for the condition for which it is given with a small group of people. Third, the effectiveness trial is repeated with a large group of people. If a pharmaceutical company can document success with all three trials, than and only than, will the FDA approve the vaccine or medicine for public sale and distribution.

Your articles are interesting and I do recognize Lancet as a distinguished medical journal. However, you really have to do a lot better than simply coming up with articles that are generally critical of scientific studies to have any credibility when you assert vaccines are dangerous.
I have never said that people "should not vaccinate". I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm for choice and I am anti-mandate. When people use scientific studies as a means to coerce others into getting medical treatments that they do not want to get, they should be aware that their "credible" source is not as credible as they think it is. The articles I shared demonstrate that.

I do not agree that the FDA nor the CDC are just a couple of independent objective agencies who have our best interest at heart. They can and are prone to manipulation, corruption and bias, just like any other agency. Look at the people who are involved with these groups and you'll see a clear pattern of how they are also tied to industry. For example, the FDA has ties to Monsanto. In 2006 legislation was introduced to deal with the problem of conflicts of interest with the CDC and vaccines. Lawmakers sever ties between CDC and Big Pharma

As far as I can see, this bill went nowhere after it was introduced. I'm not surprised considering how powerful the pharmaceutical lobby is and how they don't want anyone messing with their cozy relationship with the CDC. https://www.congress.gov/bill/109th-...ouse-bill/5887

Again, I am not telling anyone to not vaccinate but it is true that vaccines are not safe for all and people should have the right to choose, free from coercion whether they'd like to take part in all, some or no vaccinations.

Last edited by MissTerri; 08-31-2015 at 04:45 PM..
 
Old 08-31-2015, 04:44 PM
 
8,545 posts, read 5,271,345 times
Reputation: 9115
Suzy, it is so difficult to reply to you when you quote a bunch of different people all in one gigantic post. In replying you know that we can't see who it is your quoting where as we scroll through your wall of text. You've been told this repeatedly but I suppose you enjoy the fact that you have found a way to make it difficult for people to respond because you keep doing it.

I know there is an (ineffective) vaccine for the flu. If you'll re-read what I wrote without being so heavy on defense maybe you'll understand that I was talking about there being no vaccine for stomach bugs. It's pretty obvious.

Regarding money, why do you think the pharmaceutical companies are pushing for mandates? Why are they donating large sums of money to politicians? Out of the goodness of their heart? Do you really think they care about us? What is their motive?

You still have no idea that choice and coercion are two very different things. It's sad, really.

Your "credible sources" are not as credible as you pretend they are. The studies that support the agenda get funded and published. The rest don't. That's the truth. Did you even read the links I shared to which you are responding to?

Last edited by MissTerri; 08-31-2015 at 05:17 PM..
 
Old 08-31-2015, 05:03 PM
 
5,063 posts, read 3,338,328 times
Reputation: 4879
Quote:
Originally Posted by angelenogirl View Post
I'm fine with this. It's not forced vaccination. It's just...we're not paying for your education. If you hold firmly to these beliefs you should be willing to homeschool.
In that case assuming I hold the opposite stance as you, can I stop paying for your kids education? It makes up 70% of my property tax bill... I'd keep my kids out of public school if I got to keep that...
 
Old 08-31-2015, 07:01 PM
 
Location: BC, Arizona
1,170 posts, read 748,728 times
Reputation: 2377
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Suzy, it is so difficult to reply to you when you quote a bunch of different people all in one gigantic post. In replying you know that we can't see who it is your quoting where as we scroll through your wall of text. You've been told this repeatedly but I suppose you enjoy the fact that you have found a way to make it difficult for people to respond because you keep doing it.

I know there is an (ineffective) vaccine for the flu. If you'll re-read what I wrote without being so heavy on defense maybe you'll understand that I was talking about there being no vaccine for stomach bugs. It's pretty obvious.

Regarding money, why do you think the pharmaceutical companies are pushing for mandates? Why are they donating large sums of money to politicians? Out of the goodness of their heart? Do you really think they care about us? What is their motive?

You still have no idea that choice and coercion are two very different things. It's sad, really.

Your "credible sources" are not as credible as you pretend they are. The studies that support the agenda get funded and published. The rest don't. That's the truth. Did you even read the links I shared to which you are responding to?
We know choice and coercion are different. Frankly though your parroting of the fact that you don't like it is ridiculous. We get it. You think mandates are bad

The law has determined this type of mandate is not coercion. Vaccination is a choice. It may be a difficult choice not to vaccinate if it means homeschooling but it's still a choice.

In terms of not being able to follow a post? Seriously? Statement made, debunked effectively by Suzy. You don't need to see the name to see the flawed logic being pointed out. Not only is Suzys way of responding the preferred method for CD moderators, it's a single post shutting down 20 silly statements at once. That's really why you don't like it. You like this silly hoax vs science tennis match with your repeated myths ad nauseum.
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