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Old 05-30-2015, 06:35 AM
PJA
 
2,387 posts, read 2,377,800 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJJersey View Post
The title says it applies to private school as well. In nj - and a assume in ca as well - kids have a constitutional right to a public education. They shouldn't have to choose between a violation of their bodily privacy rights and a violation of their public education rights.
But they should have the right to put others at risk??

 
Old 05-30-2015, 06:40 AM
Status: "MAGA" (set 9 days ago)
 
Location: New Jersey
10,466 posts, read 5,989,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PJA View Post
But they should have the right to put others at risk??
Again and again, no one is putting others at risk. If you're afraid of chickenpox then you get your kid vaccinated. Plus, people do things every day that put others at risk. Just driving a car, for example, puts others at risk.
 
Old 05-30-2015, 06:45 AM
 
8,308 posts, read 8,586,427 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
That is NOT a GOOD answer to the question. I stopped reading at the $60K figure. If that's the best the pro-vax crowd can come up with I'm sorry, I don't see any hope. Come up with a more compelling (rational) argument. And about "financial gain". It isn't pediatricians that profit! No one ever said that. It's the companies that make vaccines that profit. Geez. I would think that would be clear?
Vaccines are not big money-makers for the pharmaceutical industry, despite attempts to claim they are.

The big money in the industry is made by selling drugs and medicines for chronic conditions such as high blood pressure, high cholesterol, diabetes, chronic pain, depression, and anything that requires treatment on a permanent or semi-permanent basis. Vaccines, pardon my pun, are often a "one-shot" deal. I looked for a good article that explains all of this. This article by Paul Offit explains contrasts the situation today where we often have vaccine shortages with the situation in the 1950's when the Salk Polio Vaccine was developed. Back in the 50's, companies were standing in line to produce the polio vaccine. Today, there are sometimes people going without vaccines because it can be hard to (1) find a company that will make it; and (2) find a company that will produce a sufficient number of doses of the vaccine to meet the demand.

Offit explains a long series of reasons why vaccines are generally not very profitable for the industry and this is a very worthwhile article for someone with an open mind on the subject.


Why Are Pharmaceutical Companies Gradually Abandoning Vaccines?

On another note, I don't know if things have changed particularly, but I remember in my wife's early days as a public health nurse that many pediatricians stopped giving immunizations completely. This placed a high burden on the local health department. My wife often stayed after hours to administer immunizations to large groups of people. It was stressful at times because the nurses had to give every shot correctly and often there were a hundred or more people coming through. In short, many doctors were simply abandoning giving immunizations because they no longer deemed it "cost effective" for their offices.

I think one can make an argument that even if some activities are not profitable or a mere "break even" situation, you still ought to be doing them simply because its consistent with being a professional. The world is increasingly working less and less that way though

Vaccinations aren't really a "cash cow" for anyone. The primary beneficiaries are those who receive them and everyone in the public who does not catch an infectious disease because of the herd immunity they create. I hope it does not take some kind of crisis where they can't be given to prove how much we need them.

Last edited by markg91359; 05-30-2015 at 07:03 AM..
 
Old 05-30-2015, 06:53 AM
 
5,644 posts, read 3,198,175 times
Reputation: 6628
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
From my own family tree:

A second great granduncle. Died of measles, age 24. Never married; no children.

A great grandaunt. Died of measles, age 1 year, 1 month, and 24 days.

A second great granduncle. Died of measles, age 33. Married with two children.

A great granduncle. Died of pneumonia secondary to measles, age 18. Never married; no children.

Then there's the family that lost four children, ages 10, 13, 21, and 29 in a typhoid epidemic. None had married or had children. There's a vaccine for that, but it is seldom needed except for travelers to areas where there is risk of getting it.

Obituaries from a small town newspaper; four measles deaths, including three infants, in less than one year:

Meriwether Vindicator death notices Dec 1883-Dec 1887

BOLAND, little Daniel, 11 month old son of Mr. and Mrs. J. F. Boland who recently moved to Greenville, died last Friday morning of whooping cough and measles; the remains were consigned to the tomb in the village cemetery on Sunday morning; Vol. 13, No. 22, May 15, 1885

TERRELL, little Willie, infant son of Mr. and Mrs. W. T. Terrell, died in Greenville of measles on Thursday afternoon of last week, aged 13 months; Vol. 13, No. 47, November 6, 1885

ROUTON, Mrs. Nancy Ann, wife of Mr. A. R. Routon, died of measles at her home near Bulloch's store in Gill's district last Tuesday afternoon; she was the oldest daughter of Mr. Henry H. Revill and was born Dec. 26th, 1842; she married Mr. Routon in July 1859; she was buried Wednesday afternoon at Ebenezer church near her late residence; Vol. 14, No. 11, February 26, 1886

CLINE, little Birdie, two year old daughter of Rev. J. H. and Mrs. Cline, died in Greenville last Tuesday morning from an attack of measles; she was buried Tuesday afternoon; Vol. 14, No. 15, March 26, 1886

Medicine today might have saved them. Vaccines today prevent the necessity to have to treat the disease at all.
Seriously? You are going back to the 1800's? Quote me deaths in the 1960's from Measles. For one thing, HYGIENE was not same in the 19th Century as the 20th Century. Ever consider that?

My Great-Grandma (born 1876) came to this country as a little girl. She told me (personally) about her experiences on the ship in steerage. 100's of people all packed into the bottom on the ship. Toilets? They used pots all together. Food was in bags on the floor. Mothers slept on top of their own children so the RATS would not bite their kids. She said people DIED before they ever got to this country. This was your late 1800's.

Oh, if only there were these vaccinations back then these people could have been saved? No, better SANITARY conditions could have saved those people from dying.

Last edited by Jo48; 05-30-2015 at 07:20 AM..
 
Old 05-30-2015, 07:09 AM
 
5,644 posts, read 3,198,175 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latetotheparty View Post
and you know this about the flu shot, how??

I have had the real influenza flu one time, not a "stomach flu" not a "bad cold flu" but the FLU....

and let me tell you, it was MISERABLE.... weak, muscles aching, bones aching, couldn't do anything but lie in bed and sleep... for an ENTIRE WEEK....

I never want to endure anything like that ever again, so yes, I get my flu shot every single year.... and while my mother was alive, it was even more important because she was immune suppressed and then spent her last years in a nursing home with advancing dementia.... no way was I going to risk exposing her or the entire nursing home population to a flu infection because I was too stupid or stubborn not to get the vaccination....

as to feeling miserable after getting the vaccination?? the first one I ever got, years and years ago, I felt a little tired and achy for a couple of days.... nothing a couple of aspirin or tylenol couldn't handle.... and certainly NOTHING like the flu...

since then?? I have been just fine, with maybe a little soreness at the injection site...
You only had the flu ONCE? You must be very young. Oh, maybe that is because you now get your flu shot every year?

Worst experience? Sorry, but that "stomach flu" is far worse than the plain flu, as in constantly vomiting even drinking WATER. Try spending days sitting on or bending over the John. You CAN'T just lay in bed!

Hurry, Big Parms we need MORE vaccinations. So many illnesses, so few vaccines to prevent it.
 
Old 05-30-2015, 07:19 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,501 posts, read 26,116,900 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Seriously? You are going back to the 1800's? Quote me deaths in the 1960's from Measles. For one thing, HYGIENE was not same in the 19th Century as the 20th Century. Ever consider that?
Please tell me how "hygiene" will protect against an airborne, highly infectious disease like measles.

Many who are infected during measles outbreaks in the US catch it in doctors' offices and hospital ERs.

If hygiene will protect you, how come we had over 600 cases of measles last year? Clue: unvaccinated American citizens traveled to areas where measles is still circulating and brought it home to their unvaccinated families and friends.

Stop vaccinating and we will be right back to the 1800s and filling cemeteries with dead kids again.
 
Old 05-30-2015, 07:51 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,978 posts, read 98,832,039 times
Reputation: 31391
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
On another note, I don't know if things have changed particularly, but I remember in my wife's early days as a public health nurse that many pediatricians stopped giving immunizations completely. This placed a high burden on the local health department. My wife often stayed after hours to administer immunizations to large groups of people. It was stressful at times because the nurses had to give every shot correctly and often there were a hundred or more people coming through. In short, many doctors were simply abandoning giving immunizations because they no longer deemed it "cost effective" for their offices.
Yes, things have changed in that regard. Under the ACA, ACA-compliant insurance must pay for vaccines at no charge at POS, regardless of the type of plan. Immunizations are excluded from any type of "deductible" service. No co-pays, either. In addition, VFC (federally funded) vaccines can now only be used for the uninsured, under-insured (not clear on what that definition is now), Medicaid patients, Alaskan natives and Native Americans. In essence, if you have compliant insurance, you can't get your IZs from the health dept. (Thumbnail sketch; there are some other details.) This is to encourage everyone to have a "medical home". While I like the idea of ins. being required to cover vaccines, some people just don't have a medical home. Their doctor may have retired or moved away, or the patients may be new in town and not yet established w/a physician. Their options at this point are Walgreen's, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Seriously? You are going back to the 1800's? Quote me deaths in the 1960's from Measles. For one thing, HYGIENE was not same in the 19th Century as the 20th Century. Ever consider that?

My Great-Grandma (born 1876) came to this country as a little girl. She told me (personally) about her experiences on the ship in steerage. 100's of people all packed into the bottom on the ship. Toilets? They used pots all together. Food was in bags on the floor. Mothers slept on top of their own children so the RATS would not bite their kids. She said people DIED before they ever got to this country. This was your late 1800's.

Oh, if only there were these vaccinations back then these people could have been saved? No, better SANITARY conditions could have saved those people from dying.
400-500 a year.
Measles | History of Measles | CDC

Actually, it was smallpox vaccine causing the population of Sweden to grow that fueled their "Great Migration" to the US.
Swedish Immigration
 
Old 05-30-2015, 08:10 AM
 
8,542 posts, read 5,266,553 times
Reputation: 9105
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Please tell me how "hygiene" will protect against an airborne, highly infectious disease like measles.

Many who are infected during measles outbreaks in the US catch it in doctors' offices and hospital ERs.

If hygiene will protect you, how come we had over 600 cases of measles last year? Clue: unvaccinated American citizens traveled to areas where measles is still circulating and brought it home to their unvaccinated families and friends.

Stop vaccinating and we will be right back to the 1800s and filling cemeteries with dead kids again.

Nutrition had a lot more to do with saving people from complications including death from measles then sanitation. People today are not at the same risk of dying from measles as those in the late 1800's or early 1900's due to better nutrition. The death rate had already plummeted prior to the introduction of the measles vaccine. Obviously nutrition won't prevent people from getting measles but it's the complications that come with measles that are what we should be concerned about and nutrition plays a major role in that.

Sanitation though should not be discounted as it played a major role in the reduction of illness, complications and deaths from other things.

Last edited by MissTerri; 05-30-2015 at 09:36 AM..
 
Old 05-30-2015, 08:17 AM
 
Location: Out in the Badlands
10,395 posts, read 8,351,291 times
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Lucky them.
 
Old 05-30-2015, 10:50 AM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
3,510 posts, read 2,795,787 times
Reputation: 6371
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJJersey View Post
Again and again, no one is putting others at risk. If you're afraid of chickenpox then you get your kid vaccinated. Plus, people do things every day that put others at risk. Just driving a car, for example, puts others at risk.

Except that isn't an option for everyone. You're just repeating the same ridicuous argument that has already been made many times over and guess what, it still sounds just as daft as the previous 20 times it was brought up.
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