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Old 05-30-2015, 04:08 PM
 
8,546 posts, read 5,275,208 times
Reputation: 9115

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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
Its unclear to me what you are saying. Do you think they should never have chlorinated drinking water and developed sewage systems? We'd sure have problems with cholera and typhoid fever if we had never done that.

You suggested in an earlier post that improvements in sanitation were the real reason for the decline in most diseases. So, what is the solution? Return to the way things were in 1890? That, plus not vaccinating ought to make for a real problem with disease. You can't have it both ways. Those most likely to get shingles as adults are those who caught chicken pox as children.

We might not be able to wipe out all disease if vaccination rates were 100%, but we could wipe out polio and measles.

Its clear that sanitation improvements plus widespread vaccination is the key to prevention of infectious disease.

Read my posts again if they are unclear to you. I think increased sanitation is a great thing, by the way. Just noting that sometimes when we make advances we also have unintended negative consequences. I think that is true for most things, including vaccinations.

 
Old 05-30-2015, 04:49 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,030 posts, read 98,929,643 times
Reputation: 31481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Perfect example is the flu. Mutating every year. Then there is Atypical Measles also. Ok, nobody wants to hear that. Let's talk about the plague, small pox, and polio in the same breathe as measles, chicken pox, and the FLU.

Mankind should have been wiped out generations ago without all these vaccines. How did we ever manage to survive without them? Every person alive here posting today was conceived because their parents, grandparents, etc., did NOT die before adulthood without all these vaccinations.
And many of their sibs did not. My father lost a brother at about age 10, ~ 1922. No one really knew what he had, but my mom thought it sounded like rheumatic fever, another disease we rarely see any more due to another bugaboo of the alternative crowd, antibiotics. My grandmother lost three sibs in three weeks to a diphtheria epidemic, plus her mother had a stillbirth during said epidemic. My husband lost a cousin to polio shortly before the vaccine became available. All those people did NOT grow up to reproduce.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
No one said anything of the sort.
This statement is incorrect: "The reason why increased sanitation made polio worse was because prior to that polio was something pretty much everyone got in early childhood. When the number of cases dropped due to better sanitation (they did, you're wrong about the numbers getting larger) adults started getting polio because they never got in childhood and never developed immunity"

The number of cases increased greatly in the late 1940s/early 50s. This is easily verifiable data. It is also true that polio has always been with us. Few adults got it, even during the epidemics. If you think about it, according to that theory, adults should have had it as kids! Franklin Roosevelt was an outlier.
Vaccines: VPD-VAC/Polio/Disease FAQs
Polio Cases, Deaths, and Vaccination Rates - Vaccines - ProCon.org (Graph)

Last edited by Katarina Witt; 05-30-2015 at 05:12 PM..
 
Old 05-30-2015, 05:09 PM
 
5,662 posts, read 3,206,067 times
Reputation: 6646
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
Polio has been around since pre-historic times, causing paralysis since then as well.
History of poliomyelitis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
History of polio - BBC News
Anyone with much Bible background knows of stories about crippled people. This romantic idea that "civilization and/or modern medicine caused polio" is incorrect, to say the least.

"Atypical measles" is caused by immunization with the old killed measles vaccine. This vaccine was discontinued after 1967. Therefore, all patients at risk are at least 47 years old. The treatment is to re-immunized with live measles vaccine.
An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...loads/meas.pdf
\ow

Of course BOOSTERS! How about leave it alone when they were old enough to be exposed to the disease and not catch it????
 
Old 05-30-2015, 05:44 PM
 
5,662 posts, read 3,206,067 times
Reputation: 6646
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
And many of their sibs did not. My father lost a brother at about age 10, ~ 1922. No one really knew what he had, but my mom thought it sounded like rheumatic fever, another disease we rarely see any more due to another bugaboo of the alternative crowd, antibiotics. My grandmother lost three sibs in three weeks to a diphtheria epidemic, plus her mother had a stillbirth during said epidemic. My husband lost a cousin to polio shortly before the vaccine became available. All those people did NOT grow up to reproduce.



This statement is incorrect: "The reason why increased sanitation made polio worse was because prior to that polio was something pretty much everyone got in early childhood. When the number of cases dropped due to better sanitation (they did, you're wrong about the numbers getting larger) adults started getting polio because they never got in childhood and never developed immunity"

The number of cases increased greatly in the late 1940s/early 50s. This is easily verifiable data. It is also true that polio has always been with us. Few adults got it, even during the epidemics. If you think about it, according to that theory, adults should have had it as kids! Franklin Roosevelt was an outlier.
Vaccines: VPD-VAC/Polio/Disease FAQs
Polio Cases, Deaths, and Vaccination Rates - Vaccines - ProCon.org (Graph)
Reading between the lines, I find that a horrific and prejudiced statement. It does not matter if people are kept in abject poverty with not enough/good food choices, unsanitary living conditions, as long as they have access to MEDICINE (vaccinations), they will be just fine. KEEP them in those conditions? Is that what you are saying??????

Last edited by Marka; 05-31-2015 at 04:06 AM..
 
Old 05-30-2015, 06:04 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,556 posts, read 26,166,023 times
Reputation: 26586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Oh, but wait. If YOU are vaccinated yourself, aren't YOU protected?
Why do you keep asking that? It does not make you look very informed. Continuing to ask it just emphasizes that you know nothing about vaccines or immunolgy. It undermines your credibility.

Quote:
Reading between the lines, I find that a horrific and prejudiced statement. It does not matter if people are kept in abject poverty with not enough/good food choices, unsanitary living conditions, as long as they have access to MEDICINE (vaccinations), they will be just fine. KEEP them in those conditions? Is that what you are saying??????
You should stop inferring things that are not said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
I was talking specifically about measles in regards to nutrition but if you missed that little bit of info then feel free to continue smacking yourself. Increased sanitation has helped with polio.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
You should re-read what I wrote the first time because you obviously still don't know what I was talking about. I very clearly stated that nutrition did not prevent measles, but rather the complications (including death) from measles. Nutrition (particularly increased levels of vitamin C and A) helped prevent deaths and others complications from measles. That's a fact. You can ignore it all you want but it doesn't change reality. Death from measles was already way down prior to the vaccine. Why do you think that is? Increased sanitation helped stop the spread of polio. How do you think polio is spread? Fecal oral route. That's how.
Measles and vitamin A:

Vitamin A for treating measles in children - The Cochrane Library - Huiming - Wiley Online Library

"Two megadoses of vitamin A lowers the risk of death from measles in hospitalized children under the age of two years, but not in all children with measles."

If increased sanitation, not vaccination, eliminated polio in the US, how do you account for its elimination in third world countries where sanitation is abysmal?

The polio vaccine was introduced in 1955. The incidence of polio was cut in half in one year. What advance in sanitation in the US in 1955-56 was responsible for such a large decrease in the number of cases?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
The reason why increased sanitation made polio worse was because prior to that polio was something pretty much everyone got in early childhood. When the number of cases dropped due to better sanitation (they did, you're wrong about the numbers getting larger) adults started getting polio because they never got in childhood and never developed immunity and just like measles and chicken pox, polio is much more dangerous to adults then children. This is the type of thing that makes me worry about chicken pox and measles. Since children no longer get these things when they are children and when the risk of complications is at it's lowest, now we run the risk of seeing more serious consequences due to people getting them in adulthood. Messing with disease often creates new and unexpected problems. That's what happened with polio and increased sanitation and we could see it happen with other illnesses due to the fact that virus' can mutate and not everyone can be protected even if the vaccination rates were 100%.
Now you have contradicted yourself. Do you agree that better sanitation did not reduce the incidence of polio in the US?

Risk of complications from vaccine preventable diseases is not zero in children. We are on the verge of eradicating polio - with vaccination. Then polio will be removed from the childhood vaccine list. Measles can be potentially eradicated. Then we can remove measles from the childhood vaccine list. Hepatitis B can potentially be eradicated. Then we can remove hepatitis B from the childhood vaccine list.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
The articles on that were wiped from the Internet if they did not promote the science today. I bookmarked one and months later got a 404 Error trying to access it.
Now you are reduced to conspiracy theories? It's likely you could find the article again.

Just Google the title and author.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Read my posts again if they are unclear to you. I think increased sanitation is a great thing, by the way. Just noting that sometimes when we make advances we also have unintended negative consequences. I think that is true for most things, including vaccinations.
Vaccinations can have complications. Those are recognized. Serious complications are rare - far less common than serious complications from the diseases they prevent.

What unintended consequences have happened due to eradication of smallpox - the ultimate medical effect of smallpox vaccine?

Some viruses mutate very slowly and continue to be susceptible to vaccines, measles for example. Surveillance will detect any need to modify the vaccine, but so far that has not been necessary for most vaccines, flu being the one for which mutation is truly a problem. Mutation also has made it hard to develop vaccines for some conditions, including HIV.
 
Old 05-30-2015, 06:58 PM
 
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
9,288 posts, read 16,151,953 times
Reputation: 11281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
You only had the flu ONCE? You must be very young. Oh, maybe that is because you now get your flu shot every year?

Worst experience? Sorry, but that "stomach flu" is far worse than the plain flu, as in constantly vomiting even drinking WATER. Try spending days sitting on or bending over the John. You CAN'T just lay in bed!

Hurry, Big Parms we need MORE vaccinations. So many illnesses, so few vaccines to prevent it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Do you even know what a stomach flu (norovirus) is? I doubt it from what you said about the "real" flu.
I am 55, so not so young..... I was around 22 when I got the flu.....

I have never had the "stomach flu" because there is no such thing..... I HAVE had some stomach virus or another a few times over the years, and yes, that is miserable, but generally runs its course within a couple of days at most..... I was flat on my back for a week with the flu and then well below 100% for a week or two after that.... not a good thing when you are a full time college student working a nearly full time job.....
 
Old 05-30-2015, 07:28 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,030 posts, read 98,929,643 times
Reputation: 31481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
\ow

Of course BOOSTERS! How about leave it alone when they were old enough to be exposed to the disease and not catch it????
You seem to misunderstand the purpose of a second dose of measles vaccine.

For people who got the killed vaccine, which did not work well and did cause "atypical measles" in some people when they were exposed to wild measles, the solution to the problem is to immunize them with the good vaccine.

For people who received one dose of live measles vaccine, the purpose of the second dose is to catch the 5% or so who did not respond to the first dose. In neither case is this a "booster".
 
Old 05-31-2015, 09:33 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,030 posts, read 98,929,643 times
Reputation: 31481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Yes, I know. Government thinks by making something free, like vaccinations/preventive care, that will be an incentive to increase vaccination rates, particularly with adults.

Ever the old adage? You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink. I don't care if I can get FREE vaccinations. I don't even care if I can get a FREE TURKEY with my Free Flu Shot at Publix Supermarkets. Don't want either, even if both are free.

Maybe you need to give out Flu Shots a Church Food Pantries. Want your free food? You must get your vaccinations too!!! I think that the 5 year National Adult Vaccination Plan is thinking about vaccinating at churches too, You can RUN but you cannot HIDE (in the Herd). lol

That would not surprise me at all. Big Brother, Big Pharms, and Medicine are flexing their muscles.

Edit: "Medical Home"? No, thanks, my own home is just fine. Oh, since now we all have health insurance, we will all of course have our own personal medicine home. Right. I think Healthy People 2020 says they want 100% with a medical home. Pie in the sky. More $$$ for the medical community, not to mention if 100% of the population had their own medical home, doctors would then be pushing vaccinations/medications in their faces. WHO benefits from that one?

I can read between the lines of the ACA, Healthy People 2020, and the National Adult Vaccination Plan.
Actually, many VNAs give flu shots at homeless shelters. Nothing worse than a flu epidemic at a crowded shelter full of people in fragile heath situations. Until quite recently, my church gave flu shots at church. Church is one of the last places elderly disabled people still go. In the last few years, flu vaccine has become much more available at other places where the elderly also go, such as pharmacies and doctor's offices. Changes in the ACA have helped too.

A "medical home" means you have a doctor you can call when you have a health problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Reading between the lines, I find that a horrific and prejudiced statement. It does not matter if people are kept in abject poverty with not enough/good food choices, unsanitary living conditions, as long as they have access to MEDICINE (vaccinations), they will be just fine. KEEP them in those conditions? Is that what you are saying??????
No.

Last edited by Katarina Witt; 05-31-2015 at 09:44 AM..
 
Old 05-31-2015, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Subconscious Syncope, USA (Northeastern US)
2,367 posts, read 1,526,249 times
Reputation: 3814
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
1. I don't know what your experience with vaccines as a child was. If all doses of the MMR vaccine are taken this vaccine is 99% effective at preventing measles. If all doses of the polio vaccine are taken it is 99% effective in preventing polio. If all does of varicella, the chicken pox vaccine, are taken it is 85 to 90% effective.

That is the "truth" that we have established through a scientific process that has been validated.

2. It is has been explained many times in these vaccine posts why it is necessary for everyone to vaccinate. I will do it again. Vaccination creates herd immunity. Herd immunity can be explained in simple terms. It simply means that a person who is vaccinated not only doesn't catch an infectious disease, it also means they cannot spread the disease to others as well. This is how epidemics are prevented by vaccination. Because vaccines are not 100% effective, because some people cannot vaccinate for medical reasons, and because some people cannot make it to a vaccination center for logistical reasons, it is all the more important for everyone who can be vaccinated, to be vaccinated. Vaccination levels of 90% to 95% offer us the best protection against epidemic disease.

That is why vaccination is more than just an "individual rights" issue.

3. The facts about vaccination have not changed since the first vaccinations were given for small pox and diptheria. What has changed is that small pox has now been eliminated as a disease and with a little luck, polio will soon be next.

4. When you make a statement like "medicine has not and never has been one treatment fits all" are you saying vaccines don't work? Pretty silly opinion. All the evidence says something else.

5. While medicine and vaccination may not be perfect that says nothing at all. Nothing is perfect. However, vaccinations have saved thousands of lives and made the course of disease for many who become sick far more mild than it would have been. The question should be: Do the benefits of vaccines outweigh the risks? The answer to that question is a resounding yes.

6. An article about a medicine given for "morning sickness" has no application to a discussion about whether vaccines work or not.

Those with an open mind, might be very interested in this link from the College of Physicians in Philadelphia. It answers a whole series of questions about vaccination. Last I checked, we cant simply run to the local pharmacy and pick up some, "TamaEbola".


Top 20 Questions about Vaccination — History of Vaccines


*** a note to all those who believe in vaccination. Why do you think anti-vaccinators keep asking over and over again why everyone should have to vaccinate even when they hear the explanation about herd immunity repeatedly? Is this simple concept beyond them?
Sorry, was away for the weekend.

1. I told you what it was. I recieved every vaccine that I was slated to have from a baby until about almost a teenager. My mother was very strick about following the pediatricians advice. My grandmother questioned him one day on a routine visit. She wanted to know what the point of vaccination was if Im going to come down with the diseases anyway. Not an unreasonable question. His answer was simular to others here - if I got sick, it was a milder case than it would have been without the vaccine.

Did I not say I did not get polio, lol? I would add to that I did not get Diptheria either.

4. Surely, you know everyone reacts to medications, treatments, and vaccines differently. It's called Physiology, I think.

6. In your opinion. Mine is obviously different. Learn to deal.

I have an open mind. Im not against anyone seeking vaccination recieving it. I would never tell someone they should not be vaccinated, however, I cant see random vaccines for something as mundane as the flu that we all have been exposed to for every single year of our lives shoved down anyone's throat either. Its my body - I should have a reasonable choice over what I want going into it.

I have an elderly family member. They have never been vaccinated for the flu. Imagine living to be almost 90 without a flu vaccine - how is it even possible?

What is wrong with natural immunity? It keeps doctors in business too.

People speak of propaganda - you dont look at the posters using photos of dead people lined up in the street from a time where people did not have reasonable access to orange juice, aspirin, and pennicillin to push a vaccine as propaganda? No?


Im also kinda intelligent. Not smarter than the average bear, but I still have a rather 'human-oriented' thought process -

Granny emphasized, "I am OLD" You dont need a PhD to figure out what she is saying. She isnt worried - she has lived a life. What's a disease going to do - cut it short? Nope, impossible.


I had read in the past that Bree Walker's mother had taken the morning sickness drug. Please forgive me for having invalid information. However, there were numerous lawsuits over it, and it was taken off the market. Companies dont just trash a drug when their is no evidence behind the complaints. They spend too much on R&D for that. It was a fact then, suddenly 30+ years later it is no longer a fact. The correlation is its a foreign substance that has no need to exist. Sure, some women have a hard time with pregnancy, but some women dont mind eating crackers either. We have no historical evidence that eating crackers ever caused or was linked to birth defects, lol.

As for Public School, they have right to require what they will. As for Hospitals, they have a right to require what they will from any new hires.

What happens to those cancer patients once they get on public transportation to go home? Are they not vaccinated too? Is it not said that people with compromised immune systems are a priority for vaccination?

Im not sure there is anyone on the planet that wouldnt get in line for an Ebola Vaccine should we see a substancial outbreak where we live. Last I checked, no one can simply run to the pharmacy and pick up a pack of "TamaEbola".

At any rate, are we supposed to live forever?

How would the planet support us living forever, and the new lives that follow us too?



Last edited by ConeyGirl52; 05-31-2015 at 01:22 PM..
 
Old 05-31-2015, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,030 posts, read 98,929,643 times
Reputation: 31481
^^
Quote:
"In your opinion. Mine is obviously different. Learn to deal."
The problem is, this is not an issue of opinion. It's not "is red a prettier color than blue?" It's more like "does water flow uphill or down?"
Quote:
"What is wrong with natural immunity? It keeps doctors in business too."
Here's a kid who will get natural immunity to tetanus, if he lives at all:
http://www.lfpress.com/2015/05/29/bo...ghting-tetanus
" A six-year-old boy is in critical condition in a London hospital with Ontario’s first recorded case of tetanus this year after a nail wound to his foot.. . . The spasms can be so strong people can break bones and even stop breathing, Lynn said. . . . Even with early treatment, tetanus is fatal in about 20% of cases, with the higher fatality rates among infants and the elderly."

Sounds lovely, doesn't it?
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