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Old 06-01-2015, 04:11 AM
 
Location: Subconscious Syncope, USA (Northeastern US)
2,367 posts, read 1,522,928 times
Reputation: 3814

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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Did you read how he got his PhD? Essentially he awarded it to himself.

I stopped listening to the video when he mentioned the word autism.

Lots of people "give testimony". That does not mean the "testimony" is worth hearing.

Null's "testimony" had nothing to do with stopping healthcare workers' flu vacccinations. They ran out of vaccine.

Vaccinating Health Care Workers Against Influenza: The Ethical and Legal Rationale for a Mandate

I am not worried about "illegal aliens". They've been vaccinated.
LMAO, you sound like God. Okay God, then your whole thing here is bogus. You already know that every person on the planet has been vaccinated. Cool!

No one has anything to worry about.

Um, no - the NYSNA was fighting this new non-contractual obligation. They may have eventually run out of vaccine, but they didnt have to take it as the mandate went under review.

Its also amazingly good science and research to say you stopped listening based on a personal buzzword. I guess its everyone else that needs an 'open mind' - not God SuzyQ. *shrugs*

Last edited by ConeyGirl52; 06-01-2015 at 05:06 AM..

 
Old 06-01-2015, 06:53 AM
 
5,644 posts, read 3,194,565 times
Reputation: 6627
http://assets.usw.org/resources/heal..._Vaccine-1.pdf

OSHA also does not require Hep. B vaccination for Health Care Staff. Staff can sign a refusal form for that also.

Suzy, did you know that staff working in Direct Care MR/DD Group Homes/Day Hab fall under the umbrella of "health care" workers?

While we were offered (not required) a Hep. B vaccination, nothing was ever said about "mandatory" Flu Shots for Staff. I no longer work in a Group Home, but I have a friend who still does. I will have to ask her if Flu Shots are now mandatory.

Seems these states passing these laws requiring flu shots for "health care professionals" are in direct conflict to OSHA's philosophy.

I am sure you yourself are required to take OSHA's Blood Borne Pathogens course every year, plus yearly in service training, so you know what I am talking about. I will not link OSHA'S refusal form unless someone else wants to see it.
 
Old 06-01-2015, 07:41 AM
 
5,644 posts, read 3,194,565 times
Reputation: 6627
While there have been many, many posts addressing "science" of vaccines, nothing has been posted from this aspect.

I consider this very relative to the issue of "keep your unvaccinated children away from my vaccinated children", "mandatory vaccinations for everyone", "quarantine the unvaccinated and keep them out of society".

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...e-death-part-4

Fear sells. Entities with an agenda use irrational fear to achieve their goals. Name your entity in selling medications, vaccinations, preventive care, etc.
 
Old 06-01-2015, 09:23 AM
 
8,305 posts, read 8,580,329 times
Reputation: 25924
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
While there have been many, many posts addressing "science" of vaccines, nothing has been posted from this aspect.

I consider this very relative to the issue of "keep your unvaccinated children away from my vaccinated children", "mandatory vaccinations for everyone", "quarantine the unvaccinated and keep them out of society".

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...e-death-part-4

Fear sells. Entities with an agenda use irrational fear to achieve their goals. Name your entity in selling medications, vaccinations, preventive care, etc.

Did you know that Lissa Rankin, the author of your article, believes in vaccination because she says she gets her own kids vaccinated? I certainly don't endorse all her statements that suggest it ought to be a choice and such. However, actions speak louder than words and this doctor chooses to vaccinate her own kids.

Vaccinations: Are They Helping Or Hurting? - mindbodygreen.com

I notice you put the science of vaccines in quotation marks suggesting to me that you don't agree. The science of vaccination is not up for debate. It is scientific and does work. Otherwise, small pox would never have been eliminated as a disease.

Lissa is kind of a zany doctor. She's the type my wife would run from if we ended up in her office by mistake. I would too, but I don't think I will ever be seeing a gynecologist.
 
Old 06-01-2015, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,962 posts, read 98,795,031 times
Reputation: 31376
^^She sounds like a libertarian. The more rational of them say they believe in immunizations but people should get them because they're good, not because they're mandatory. That assumes people understand immunizations and will seek them out willingly. That's not always true.
 
Old 06-01-2015, 10:49 AM
 
5,644 posts, read 3,194,565 times
Reputation: 6627
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
Did you know that Lissa Rankin, the author of your article, believes in vaccination because she says she gets her own kids vaccinated? I certainly don't endorse all her statements that suggest it ought to be a choice and such. However, actions speak louder than words and this doctor chooses to vaccinate her own kids.

Vaccinations: Are They Helping Or Hurting? - mindbodygreen.com

I notice you put the science of vaccines in quotation marks suggesting to me that you don't agree. The science of vaccination is not up for debate. It is scientific and does work. Otherwise, small pox would never have been eliminated as a disease.

Lissa is kind of a zany doctor. She's the type my wife would run from if we ended up in her office by mistake. I would too, but I don't think I will ever be seeing a gynecologist.
Did you read my quotes of what posters have said? That is what I was addressing. IRRATIONAL FEARS of being around others who might have some deadly disease they or their's might catch.

If you and yours are vaccinated against these diseases, why are you so terrified that you might be around somebody who wasn't? Isn't the purpose of the vaccination to prevent the disease should you come into contact with it? Don't trust the vaccine to work? Far too many (younger) people seem to be.

Let me ask a question of the older generation. If you yourself had measles, mumps, chicken pox, etc., are you afraid of being around others who have not been vaccinated for these diseases? Do you trust your immunity from these diseases? If let's say your grandchild has chicken pox, would you stay away from seeing them because you were afraid to catch chicken pox, AGAIN? Yet, the vaccinated people are saying exactly that. Keep vaccinated me away from unvaccinated people.

The feeling that I am getting is that the vaccinated are less trustful of the vaccines to protect them, than the people who had the diseases themselves. Again to the older generation. If you yourself had these childhood diseases, did your parents quarantine you against other kids who came down with them? "Keep your unvaccinated child away from my vaccinated child"
 
Old 06-01-2015, 10:55 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,962 posts, read 98,795,031 times
Reputation: 31376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Did you read my quotes of what posters have said? That is what I was addressing. IRRATIONAL FEARS of being around others who might have some deadly disease they or their's might catch.

If you and yours are vaccinated against these diseases, why are you so terrified that you might be around somebody who wasn't? Isn't the purpose of the vaccination to prevent the disease should you come into contact with it? Don't trust the vaccine to work? Far too many (younger) people seem to be.

Let me ask a question of the older generation. If you yourself had measles, mumps, chicken pox, etc., are you afraid of being around others who have not been vaccinated for these diseases? Do you trust your immunity from these diseases? If let's say your grandchild has chicken pox, would you stay away from seeing them because you were afraid to catch chicken pox, AGAIN? Yet, the vaccinated people are saying exactly that.

The feeling that I am getting is that the vaccinated are less trustful of the vaccines to protect them, than the people who had the diseases themselves.
I had all those diseases. I'm not afraid of them for myself, but I am afraid of them for those who can't be immunized, either due to medical concerns or because they're too young. I will point out that it is possible to get chickenpox a second time, also pertussis.
 
Old 06-01-2015, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,491 posts, read 26,089,700 times
Reputation: 26446
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConeyGirl52 View Post
LMAO, you sound like God. Okay God, then your whole thing here is bogus. You already know that every person on the planet has been vaccinated. Cool!

No one has anything to worry about.

Um, no - the NYSNA was fighting this new non-contractual obligation. They may have eventually run out of vaccine, but they didnt have to take it as the mandate went under review.

Its also amazingly good science and research to say you stopped listening based on a personal buzzword. I guess its everyone else that needs an 'open mind' - not God SuzyQ. *shrugs*
In case you are unaware, other countries do vaccinate, including Mexico and the countries in Central America. Some have higher vaccination rates than the US. Yes, any "illegal" I encounter is likely to have been vaccinated.

From the previous link:

"In response, several groups filed suit against New York State, claiming that the mandate deprived them of liberty without due process and violated their right to free exercise of religion, rights guaranteed by the Fourteenth and First Amendments. In the end, unanticipated vaccine shortages in October 2009 caused Governor David Paterson to halt the mandate, temporarily relieving health care workers of the influenza vaccination requirement. New York State plans to reinstate the mandate for the 2010 to 2011 influenza season."

But don't let the facts get in the way of your snark.

Vaccine mandates do not violate freedom of religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
http://assets.usw.org/resources/heal..._Vaccine-1.pdf

OSHA also does not require Hep. B vaccination for Health Care Staff. Staff can sign a refusal form for that also.

Suzy, did you know that staff working in Direct Care MR/DD Group Homes/Day Hab fall under the umbrella of "health care" workers?

While we were offered (not required) a Hep. B vaccination, nothing was ever said about "mandatory" Flu Shots for Staff. I no longer work in a Group Home, but I have a friend who still does. I will have to ask her if Flu Shots are now mandatory.

Seems these states passing these laws requiring flu shots for "health care professionals" are in direct conflict to OSHA's philosophy.

I am sure you yourself are required to take OSHA's Blood Borne Pathogens course every year, plus yearly in service training, so you know what I am talking about. I will not link OSHA'S refusal form unless someone else wants to see it.
Nope, no OSHA training required. However, you might note that parents are taking notice of vaccination rates in day care centers and schools and refusing to use those that do not have vaccine mandates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
While there have been many, many posts addressing "science" of vaccines, nothing has been posted from this aspect.

I consider this very relative to the issue of "keep your unvaccinated children away from my vaccinated children", "mandatory vaccinations for everyone", "quarantine the unvaccinated and keep them out of society".

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...e-death-part-4

Fear sells. Entities with an agenda use irrational fear to achieve their goals. Name your entity in selling medications, vaccinations, preventive care, etc.
Claiming that vaccines cause autism, diabetes, SIDS, MS, allergies, and just about every other malady known to human kind (when they don't) is not pandering to fear? All those internet "stories" about children "damaged" by vaccines - with no evidence to show the vaccine caused the "damage" - is not fearmongering?

Another argument that fails.
 
Old 06-01-2015, 12:04 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,962 posts, read 98,795,031 times
Reputation: 31376
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
In case you are unaware, other countries do vaccinate, including Mexico and the countries in Central America. Some have higher vaccination rates than the US. Yes, any "illegal" I encounter is likely to have been vaccinated.

From the previous link:

"In response, several groups filed suit against New York State, claiming that the mandate deprived them of liberty without due process and violated their right to free exercise of religion, rights guaranteed by the Fourteenth and First Amendments. In the end, unanticipated vaccine shortages in October 2009 caused Governor David Paterson to halt the mandate, temporarily relieving health care workers of the influenza vaccination requirement. New York State plans to reinstate the mandate for the 2010 to 2011 influenza season."

But don't let the facts get in the way of your snark.

Vaccine mandates do not violate freedom of religion.



Nope, no OSHA training required. However, you might note that parents are taking notice of vaccination rates in day care centers and schools and refusing to use those that do not have vaccine mandates.



Claiming that vaccines cause autism, diabetes, SIDS, MS, allergies, and just about every other malady known to human kind (when they don't) is not pandering to fear? All those internet "stories" about children "damaged" by vaccines - with no evidence to show the vaccine caused the "damage" - is not fearmongering?

Another argument that fails.
Yes, Mexico and the central and south American countries have IZ rates similar to that of the US.
Immunization, measles (% of children ages 12-23 months) | Data | Table
Having worked with many patients from Mexico or one generation removed, I can tell you there's not a lot of this hand-wringing about immunizations that US yuppie parents do.

In re: the fear-mongering-I have long thought that parents have, if not a fear of needles, a dislike of the idea of their child being poked with a needle, and the AVs really play that up. They post pictures like this:
https://www.google.com/search?q=pict...ml%3B837%3B572
and this:
https://www.google.com/search?q=pict...2F%3B568%3B505
this:
https://www.google.com/search?q=pict...2F%3B300%3B292
this:
https://www.google.com/search?q=pict...2F%3B886%3B480
And much more!
 
Old 06-01-2015, 12:11 PM
 
8,305 posts, read 8,580,329 times
Reputation: 25924
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Did you read my quotes of what posters have said? That is what I was addressing. IRRATIONAL FEARS of being around others who might have some deadly disease they or their's might catch.

If you and yours are vaccinated against these diseases, why are you so terrified that you might be around somebody who wasn't? Isn't the purpose of the vaccination to prevent the disease should you come into contact with it? Don't trust the vaccine to work? Far too many (younger) people seem to be.

Let me ask a question of the older generation. If you yourself had measles, mumps, chicken pox, etc., are you afraid of being around others who have not been vaccinated for these diseases? Do you trust your immunity from these diseases? If let's say your grandchild has chicken pox, would you stay away from seeing them because you were afraid to catch chicken pox, AGAIN? Yet, the vaccinated people are saying exactly that. Keep vaccinated me away from unvaccinated people.

The feeling that I am getting is that the vaccinated are less trustful of the vaccines to protect them, than the people who had the diseases themselves. Again to the older generation. If you yourself had these childhood diseases, did your parents quarantine you against other kids who came down with them? "Keep your unvaccinated child away from my vaccinated child"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
I had all those diseases. I'm not afraid of them for myself, but I am afraid of them for those who can't be immunized, either due to medical concerns or because they're too young. I will point out that it is possible to get chickenpox a second time, also pertussis.
1. There is nothing irrational about the fear of getting some of these diseases. I guess top on my list is whooping cough. I've fortunately never had it, but those I've met that do describe coughing spells that went on for weeks and sore ribs and chest muscles that were worth their life. You seen the numbers over and over again about the deaths caused by measles, mumps and even chicken pox. There may not have been "many" by your standards. However, the mortality and morbidity of all these diseases was very real.

Speaking of fear though, I did have sort of an epiphany about Dr. Rankin. Its just conjecture on my part, but as OB-GYN she undoubtedly sees a very large population of women in their twenties. Its been my observation that this group is a particularly difficult group to deal with in our modern world. It certainly doesn't apply to all women in this age group, but a very large number of them, these days, seemed defined by fear and anxiety. It can be very hard to reason with them and often they don't respond to factual or scientific arguments. I wonder if Dr. Rankin is speaking to this group and hoping to ease some of their fears, so that her job and that of her profession becomes a bit easier?

2. I do think there are good reasons why everyone should be vaccinated. At this point, I have no intention of explaining herd immunity again to you. I think if I have to do it one more time, I will be too sick to enjoy my impending business lunch in a few minutes.

3. At 55, I don't know if I count as the "older generation" or not. Frankly, I hope I don't. However, I have had mumps, rubella, and chicken pox. I may have had red measles, I don't really remember. Vaccination for red measles started about the time I was ready for kindergarten. I think I am a strong advocate for vaccination, partly because I have had these diseases. I have mentioned before during our vaccination threads that I had a friend who ended up in the hospital because of mumps. Most of the time, these diseases did not do great harm. However, they were so ubiquitous in the world we grew up in that some of the people who caught them were bound to have serious complications. I suspect pneumonia was a fairly common complication because of the body's immune response to the disease. (i.e. secretion of lots of fluid to expel the disease from your body) Vaccination eliminates most of these diseases from the community and stops those complications, not to mention preventing the spread of the disease to immune-compromised people.

4. I agree that the response of parents to diseases like measles, mumps, and chicken pox was different than it is today. Prior to immunization, it was understood that virtually every child would catch these diseases. Preventing the diseases was pretty near impossible. So, parents allowed kids to get these and simply hoped for the best--which was generally the case. Quarantining infected children is not sensible in that particular situation. Parents were, in effect, making a risk/benefit determination under tough circumstances.

However, the risk/benefit calculus changes dramatically when a safe and effective means exists to prevent these diseases. Why take a 1 in 1,000 chance that your child will die from measles when a vaccination exists that is 99% effective in stopping it and serious side effects from the vaccine are negligible? That's the point. Taking any significant risk is no longer necessary because a means exists to prevent most (if not all) of these infectious diseases.

I think those of us who had these diseases are often the major supporters of mandatory vaccination. Its because, to us, these diseases are a very real thing and don't simply exist in medical textbooks. Getting our kids vaccinated was probably one of the easiest parenting choices DW and I ever made.

I know this won't sink in for you, Jo. I do hope others who are sitting on the fence will read this and it will sink in for them.
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