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Old 06-01-2015, 10:33 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,554 posts, read 26,166,023 times
Reputation: 26580

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConeyGirl52 View Post
Well, then we have redefined bronchitis since 2011. I guess parents will have to keep their coughing children who suffer from seasonal bronchitis (based on allergic reactions to mold mildew fungus pollen, etc) home from school now, and older folks need to stay home from work. They might infect somebody.

Mine comes out when trees are budding. Watch out world! The trees are fighting back!

I dont eat organic so I can put any amount of chemicals into my body. Likewise, I wear washable clothing only. I only use organic deodorants.

Is there a market out there offering organic vaccines? Thanks.
Not all bronchitis is due to infections. Any inflammation of the bronchi is called bronchitis. The term bronchitis when used in connection with discussions of infectious disease is indeed an infection and is indeed contagious. It has not been redefined. Perhaps you should consider reading a bit more.

Bronchitis, Infectious - how long, body, last, viral, contagious, causes

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConeyGirl52 View Post
Im not stretching - but you keep trying, its fun to watch you squirm, lol.

What was the point of the mercury then? It was there is 2009 - why? You need mercury and formaldehyde to kill the flu for a vaccine?

BTW, the US was ranked 37th in the world for healthcare too. Vaccines are a part of healthcare.
Mercury, as thimerosal, was used as a preservative to prevent bacterial contamination of vaccines. It was removed after the anti-vax folks got their panties in a wad over it. It was never dangerous, but it is now used in only a few vaccines. Any vaccine for children, including flu vaccine, is available without any mercury at all in it.

Repeat after me:

There is no mercury in children's vaccines.

Formaldehyde was discussed above. It might help if you read the links. I'll save you the effort of going back and finding it:

Harpocrates Speaks: Demystifying Vaccine Ingredients - Formaldehyde

"Formaldehyde plays an essential role in our metabolism. As part of the metabolic process, formaldehyde, whether from an external source or produced by our bodies, is converted into formate by the enzyme formaldehyde dehydrogenase. The resulting formate can then be eliminated in the urine, further broken down into CO2 and exhaled, or used by our cell machinery to synthesize nucleotides and nucleobases, such as purines and thymidine."

"The first thing to make clear is that not every vaccine contains formaldehyde. In vaccine production, it is used to kill or inactivate the antigens being used. Because of its anti-microbial properties, it cannot be used in any of the "live" vaccines (e.g., MMR, rotavirus, varicella, and some flu vaccines), or else they would be rendered useless. Only inactivated vaccines use formaldehyde during the production process. Once the bacteria or viruses are inactivated, the formaldehyde is diluted out, leaving only minute amounts."

"Formaldehyde has a lot of scary connotations and images associated with it. It's very easy to let that fear lead us astray and blow things out of proportion. But when you step back and look at things, you realize that, where formaldehyde and vaccines are concerned, there really is nothing to be afraid of. The amount that is present is so small as to be only a negligible exposure, one that the body very quickly handles by either using it for normal cell functions or getting rid of it completely. The beginnings of adverse effects aren't even seen until exposed to many times the residual amounts present in vaccines. While reductions in the amount of environmental exposure are a good thing, the tiny amounts in vaccines are not a health concern.
"

When all the countries in the world use the same measurements of healthcare and have the same homogeneous populations then comparisons can be made. Otherwise it's problematic. For example countries with allegedly lower infant mortality just count fetuses born too soon to survive as stillbirths, even if they breathe and have a heartbeat. The US calls those live births. You cannot do comparisons when everyone does not follow the same rules, and infant mortality is one of the things used to compare countries.

In the list of "36 countries ranked ahead of the US" (which is old - 2000), many are tiny. San Marino, for example, has a population of 32,371. The county I live in has a population of 36,303. San Marino had one birth today, 117 this year. Our local hospital has more than that every month. You know, I suspect that comparing a country with a population of 32,371 to a country with a population of 325 million is just a bit ... ridiculous.

San Marino population 2015 | Current population of San Marino

Of interest, 24 of the countries ranked ahead of the US in that list have higher vaccination rates for measles than the US, 3 have the same, and 7 lower. Wait! Could it be that immunization rates are factored into rankings of how good healthcare is in a country?

 
Old 06-01-2015, 11:00 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,554 posts, read 26,166,023 times
Reputation: 26580
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
I've seen how the shingles rate is calculated and it could be a theme for a course on how to manipulate with statistics.
I know. You do not understand epidemiology. That's all right. The physicians and epidemiologists do.

This inabilty to understand epidemiology is the reason that your understanding of the benefit/risk ratio of vaccines is flawed and your decisions about vaccines based on erroneous assumptions.
 
Old 06-01-2015, 11:46 PM
 
8,322 posts, read 8,599,004 times
Reputation: 25988
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
How many deaths from the Disney Measles Outbreak? ZERO. I am 11 year older than you are. I had all those horrible diseases myself. My kids are now adults themselves. As my 36 year old daughter said the other day, "What is so horrific about Chicken Pox?". She was 11 years old when she had it in 1991, just a few years short of the vaccine becoming available. Now she is DOOMED to horrific Shingles, maybe sooner rather than later. "I will deal with that IF and when it happens".

I do believe that your precious vaccination is the reason why people are now getting Shingles. Adults not being exposed over and over to chicken pox over the years and boosting their natural immunity from the disease. Maybe they will see the same is true for all the other diseases. MORE boosters.

How many medications require addition medications to counter act the original ones? Never ending cycle but that keeping the demand up for more and more, plus increased medical care.
You can have an opinion that the Earth is flat. Your opinion doesn't make it so. The best evidence we have suggests that shingles was increasing before the chicken pox vaccine. You've done nothing here that would refute that. An adamant belief that an opinion is correct does not make it so.


http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/822982

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
Vaccines are an American invention. The vaccines obtained in the Third World are manufactured in American facilities or foreign ones under the supervision of American concerns. The money winds up in America. America still has considerable military, economic and political leverage over the rest of the Free World. Especially the Third World. That's why their vaccination rates are so high. American parents are more widely educated. They question authority. You cannot use sticks on them, nor carrots. So the vaccine makers are resorting to emotional blackmail.

If you are unlucky enough to get Ebola it is very likely to kill you. If you get the measles it is very unlikely to kill you. Measles is no more likely to kill a person than the Common Cold, for which there is no vaccine. The Flu or the Common Cold for that matter are not that deadly in and of themselves but they can weaken an older, or very young, or otherwise vulnerable person to secondary infections which sometimes are fatal. If you could support a vulnerable persons body long enough through a bad Measles episode they would live. Several hundred Ebola victims' lives were saved by herculean systemic support until their own immune systems could take over and ride their bodies of the virus.

How is that Ebola Vaccine coming? When the next Ebola outbreak happens we still won't have one because no one is using the Interval to develop one because there is no money in it. Before there was a Measles vaccine, how many children did it kill? I'm serious. How many children was Measles killing that this vaccine has become such a hot topic of political brinksmanship? I suspect more children are dying from colds and flu. There is no vaccine for a cold, and Flu vaccine manufacture and delivery is plagued with shortfalls in supply, and other systemic inefficiencies. I remember a recent flu season when the supply of vaccine was so low that it was rationed. Because of all the brainwashing, people WANT flu vaccine, which is good for Big Pharma, but they cannot keep up with demand, so they use emotional blackmail on the young adults and middle-aged to "give their dose" to someone more needy. Gotta love it.

There will never be a vaccine for HIV because it is easy enough to prevent. In fact, a vaccine might promote promiscuity so... no vaccine. Ever. No one except maybe me is going to tell you this but, antibiotics, maybe the only useful drugs the Big Pharma people ever came up with are slowly going offline. At the moment there are about 25 illnesses that are developing antibiotic resistant strains. The CDC is beyond concerned. Nero is fiddling while Rome burns. Antibiotic resistant common illnesses are a way bigger threat to the public health than some pockets of children unvaccinated against Measles.
The longer I read these vaccination posts, the more convinced I am that a segment of the American population is absolutely paranoid. I am no great lover of the medical establishment in this country. Yet, to argue that we somehow coerced or manipulated third world countries into using vaccines is beyond bizarre. I suspect we have trouble keeping up with their demand in those countries.

Improved medical care could help measles victims survive. However, some will die anyway because of the type of complications they develop. An ounce of prevention is always going to be worth a pound of cure and that's particularly so when vaccines cannot be demonstrated to cause any significant amount of serious complications. Measles actually killed quite a few children before the vaccine was developed. Its reported that 400 to 500 died per year and there were also 48,000 hospitalizations due to the disease.


http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/faqs.html

The pharmaceutical industry has actually provided a huge assortment of extremely useful drugs. Suzy mentioned some. I will add cholesterol medications, anti-seizure medications, steroids, and acid blockers to her list. I can ***** about the high cost of medicines and I frequently do, but that profit motive has generated a horde of useful and effective drugs for many diseases and conditions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
One word comes to mind when I read this. Misogyny.
Have it your way. I limited my comments to one category of women and I said there were "exceptions". This isn't a fact. Its simply an opinion. Its an opinion shared by my wife as well. So, if I am a misogynist than she is too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
I think it is reprehensible that vaccine makers have been able to "perfect" their products on the paying public. "Make them better and safer" while making profit. If you don't think they profit, you are just the kind of trusting soul I need to find to help me get my financial life back in order after my divorce. By their very nature vaccines are a volume business. Opt outs steal sales.

My early purchases of compact fluorescent bulbs were very unsatisfying. The bulbs would burn out in 7 or 8 months instead of 7 or 8 years as advertised. Lightbulbs also are a volume industry. What are friends in high places for if not to craft legislation outlawing incandescent lightbulbs for residential usage. The Market will set the price of the bulbs, and the volume sales will bring the price down to where they will be competitive .... what competition? What price reduction? And the bulb life? I don't know and neither does anyone else. Niiiiiiiiiiiiiice.

Did anyone know you needed Measles boosters? Erm, no, it has always been assumed that once vaccinated, forever immune and this fallacy has been tacitly allowed to settle in as fact. As I understand it there was/is political and ideological opposition to the vaccination of children in some Fundamentalist Islamic enemies of the West. Efforts to eradicate diseases like Polio and Measles can never be considered successful with these holdout areas still a part of Earth. But is it necessary?

When and if vaccinated individuals come in contact with unvaccinated, sick individuals is there protection from the vaccine or is there not? Were the people sickened by recent outbreaks all high risk immune compromised special case children or adults or were they not? It is a valid question. This argument keeps being raised that we must mass vaccinate to provide <cue "Land of Hope and Glory" by Elgar> herd immunity to protect those who for whatever reason cannot be vaccinated. How many of these people fall ill in a given year?

When ever did the needs of the many not outweigh the needs of the few, or the one? Try it somewhere else. I will not allow it to be the last word in this thread. If I vaccinate my child it is to protect him or her! I do NOT have a responsibility to anyone else's child. I am NOT part of a herd. I am a human being, not cattle, or sheep. I have reasonably humanitarian instincts but there are limits. Parents of healthy children should not be forced to subject their healthy children to the products of poorly regulated, profit oriented, social engineered medicine.
Science proceeds incrementally. As data comes in about the efficacy of different vaccines, the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices alters the vaccine schedule. Booster shots do make vaccines more long lasting and effective.

You really engage in some awfully poor logic to argue against vaccination and herd immunity. It may well be that the vast majority is being asked to vaccinate to protect "a few". What you make no attempt to do is weigh the relative burdens. The "many" are being asked to have their arms stuck with a couple of shots. The "few" who cannot vaccinate may lose their lives if the others refuse to vaccinate. Do you get it? The gravity of the harm to the few is what justifies making the many suffer what is at best, a minor inconvenience. "Herd" is nothing more than a scientific term used to make a point. For that matter, though, I do believe human beings are part of the animal kingdom. Although, we are a bit more sophisticated. Vaccines and medicine are not poorly regulated. They cannot come onto the market in this country without passing three stages of clinical trials and than getting approval from the FDA. Vaccinations will not be put into general use without also getting a recommendation from the CDC's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices. That's really a lot of regulation. Its why bringing a new drug or vaccine to market costs millions of dollars. Some argue that regulation is so stringent that we are passing up opportunities to have better medicines more quickly come on the market. I personally see the regulation we do have as being about right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
Not much longer. Life expectancy plateaued for most socio-economic groups a while back and it is going retr0grade for at least one socio-economic group in the U.S.
Oh brother. Life expectancy has increased by about 7.5 years just for older people in the last thirty years. Tell me, why do you think there is such concern over the future ability to fund social security and medicare? Its because more people are living longer and claiming the benefits under those programs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Sure, better medical care would help. Preventing the disease in the first place means you never have to provide heroic measures at all. Besides that, it's cheaper.

The majority of American parents vaccinate their children because they believe the experts and their child's doctor. No "emotional blackmail" needed. In fact, the "stories" of unsubstantiated harm repeated on website after anti-vax website are clear attemots at "emotional blackmail".



Measles can kill. Flu can kill. Measles can affect just about every organ system in the body.

Beyond Rash And Fever: How Measles Can Kill : Goats and Soda : NPR

Flu? Investigation of fatal cases:

Pathology and virology findings in cases of fatal influenza A H1N1 virus infection in 2009-2010. - PubMed - NCBI

"Although the number of cases in this study is small, the findings reinforce the notion that changes in extrapulmonary organs are attributable to multiorgan dysfunction syndrome rather than a viral cytopathic effect, and that there is no transplacental transmission of virus."



Ebola Vaccine, Drug Trials to Begin in West Africa - US News

In recent years anyone who wanted flu vaccine could get it, even if there were shortages in particular communities. You might have to hunt around a bit. I suspect that if there were surpluses of the vaccine you would moan that that was wasteful.



What strange things to say. Really weird.

Birth control pills are not regulated like narcotics.

If there were no plans to market an HIV vaccine no one would be working on one.

Gardasil is alive and well, now available in a vaccine that protects against nine strains, instead of four. It has also been shown that vaccinating against HPV does not promote promiscuity.



There is a poster here who has a wife who has been treated for type 1 diabetes for over 50 years. Perhaps he will pop in and join the discussion. Anyone with serious complications from diabetes is very often noncompliant with treatment. That is not medicine's fault.

Type 1 Diabetes Study | Joslin Diabetes Center

Hypertension? Meds do not cure it, but they reduce the risk of kidney damage, stroke, and heart attack. Effective meds are cheap. Publix even has some that are free.

Pain medication? Have you ever had surgery? I have. Have you ever broken a bone? I have. Appreciated the pain meds after both. Used them until the pain got better and that was it.

Would you deny pain medication to someone with extensive burns?
Diabetes complications are widespread among those with Type 1 diabetes. It is very largely a matter of control. Proper management of diabetes involves keeping blood glucose levels between 50 and 150 regularly. Diabetics are subject to retinopathy (leads to blindness), neuropathy (leads to a loss of feeling and eventually circulation in the extremities), and nephropathy (gradual kidney failure). My wife can name children she went to diabetes camp with in California who died in their thirties and forties from complications of the illness. Diet is critical to management. So is constant monitoring of blood sugar. Good monitoring is finger stick blood glucose test 4 to 5 X per day. I will say though while much of avoiding complications is about control it may not all be. Initial research of long term diabetics at the Joslin Clinic is suggesting that those diabetics who survive long term without complications may have some insulin secretion from their pancreas. Another factor may be some specific genetic factors that help some individuals deal better with the disease than others. If the artificial pancreas becomes a reality it will be interesting to see what happens to complications for that group.



http://www.joslin.org/medalist/6268.html



Quote:
Originally Posted by ConeyGirl52 View Post
That really concerns me too - the reference for Influenza-like illness.

If they are NOT specifically testing the blood for the flu, that's just more ambiguity. I saw somewhere where they were including things like bronchitis under this heading. Bronchitis is not caused by a virus, and is not communicable. There is no vaccine that can prevent it.
I have bronchitis usually once every two or three years. Mine is bacterial and responds to a course of z-pac. I don't what you mean when you say its "not communicable". I usually catch mine from my daughter when she is sick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
I've seen how the shingles rate is calculated and it could be a theme for a course on how to manipulate with statistics.
Well, I know posters here who never present statistics (manipulated or not) to support their unorthodox views about vaccination. They simply scream other statistics are wrong and demand more statistics that wouldn't convince them anyway. In the real world, such posters would get no credence at all. In professions and occupations where one has to actually prove something, they would get nowhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
I know. You do not understand epidemiology. That's all right. The physicians and epidemiologists do.

This inabilty to understand epidemiology is the reason that your understanding of the benefit/risk ratio of vaccines is flawed and your decisions about vaccines based on erroneous assumptions.
She's not the only one that fits into that category.

Last edited by markg91359; 06-02-2015 at 12:05 AM..
 
Old 06-02-2015, 07:53 AM
 
8,546 posts, read 5,275,208 times
Reputation: 9115
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
I know. You do not understand epidemiology. That's all right. The physicians and epidemiologists do.

This inabilty to understand epidemiology is the reason that your understanding of the benefit/risk ratio of vaccines is flawed and your decisions about vaccines based on erroneous assumptions.
If you want to pat yourself on the back for buying into estimates based on estimates based on assumptions, you can.
 
Old 06-02-2015, 07:54 AM
 
8,546 posts, read 5,275,208 times
Reputation: 9115
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
Have it your way. I limited my comments to one category of women and I said there were "exceptions". This isn't a fact. Its simply an opinion. Its an opinion shared by my wife as well. So, if I am a misogynist than she is too.
Probably.
 
Old 06-02-2015, 07:57 AM
 
8,546 posts, read 5,275,208 times
Reputation: 9115
A whooping cough outbreak that has impacted 11 students. 10 of those 11 were up to date on their immunizations.
Whooping cough outbreak hits two Salem-area schools
 
Old 06-02-2015, 09:10 AM
 
5,662 posts, read 3,206,067 times
Reputation: 6646
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
A whooping cough outbreak that has impacted 11 students. 10 of those 11 were up to date on their immunizations.
Whooping cough outbreak hits two Salem-area schools
Get your yearly Tdap shot with your yearly Flu Shot? Cannot hurt to get MORE, right?
 
Old 06-02-2015, 09:28 AM
 
5,662 posts, read 3,206,067 times
Reputation: 6646
Thimersol is still in the Flu Shot that Publix Supermarkets gives out.

http://www.publix.com/-/media/docume...onsent-fl.ashx

"Are you allergic to cleaning products?" Do they mean like bleach, chlorine, antibacterial soaps/sanitizers on your skin? What would that do being injected into your bloodstream instead?
 
Old 06-02-2015, 09:31 AM
 
8,322 posts, read 8,599,004 times
Reputation: 25988
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Thimersol is still in the Flu Shot that Publix Supermarkets gives out.

http://www.publix.com/-/media/docume...onsent-fl.ashx

"Are you allergic to cleaning products?" Do they mean like bleach, chlorine, antibacterial soaps/sanitizers on your skin? What would that do being injected into your bloodstream instead?
Mercury is only present in one type of vaccine anymore. That is the multi-dose flu vaccine. It is not present in any childhood vaccination or in the single dose flu vial..

This is despite the fact that no evidence was ever produced indicating the trace amount of mercury in vaccines caused any harm whatsoever.


http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/thimerosal/
 
Old 06-02-2015, 09:35 AM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,401 posts, read 9,558,628 times
Reputation: 7421
You six need your own sticky. lol You keep finding each other and taking over peoples threads with your feud.....you do realize its just you on here right? Aren't you feeling like you're on the set of Ground Hogs day??????
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