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I think the logical fallacy you engage in is that because we have a Constitution that provides guarantees of certain freedoms in America that means people have the right to do whatever they want.
That never has been the case and never will be. Our system is about balancing community interests against personal freedoms.
You've been banging the unrestricted personal liberty thing for a long time. Its gotten pretty monotonous.
It is a freedom issue for me as an adult to refuse ALL medical treatment/preventive care which vaccinations are only one part of.
If you want to talk about government powers during pandemics, think about 2009 Flu which was declared a PANDEMIC. Did you know that was our last pandemic? So what happened with that? Forced Flu Shots? Quarantine Camps? Absolutely nothing because the government knew the general public was not going to cooperate for a Flu "Pandemic" and let them flex their muscles over something like the flu. Ebola, Measles, Mumps, Whooping Cough, maybe, definitely not the Flu. Too many people think the flu is no big deal. Baby steps. Start small like Measles outbreaks, and maybe they can get enough panic over the Flu someday to force Flu shots on everyone.
I think the logical fallacy you engage in is that because we have a Constitution that provides guarantees of certain freedoms in America that means people have the right to do whatever they want.
That never has been the case and never will be. Our system is about balancing community interests against personal freedoms.
You've been banging the unrestricted personal liberty thing for a long time. Its gotten pretty monotonous.
You can move to England any time now, oops thats right, they have a strict immigration policy. Well then, next best thing is to make America the same.
I'd be ashamed to admit my views of personal liberty if they didn't include personal or liberty in them. We obviously differ.
I'm not excited to see what's next after you've taken care of parenting.
I think this might be a good time to address why at least some of us don't let go of the vaccine issue.
The truth is that I grow weary of having to prove many of the same points over and over again. I have a rule or two that I try to follow when I post on this issue:
1. No one will ever find me starting a thread about vaccination.
2. If these topics stop coming up, I will stop posting about them.
What I have done is to resolve not to allow misinformation about this topic to be presented without as good a rebuttal as I can provide. My background is not a scientific one and that's a challenge for me. Yet, I still do the best I can. Perhaps, the best indication of my deep feelings on this subject may be the fact that when I was in London a few years ago, I made a side trip to something called "The Broad Street Pump".
I know very well I am not going to convince some people when it comes to this topic. That isn't really my point. I tend to believe there are others who don't post who read these posts and may be "sitting on the fence" when it comes to vaccination. I hope to reach these people and persuade them that vaccination is in the best interests of their children.
Public health is near and dear to me. I believe it to be the most effective (and the most ignored) reason why we have successfully controlled most infectious disease and food borne illness. There is a book written around 2000 titled Betrayal of Trust by the author Laurie Garrett. The author describes how this country has come to neglect public health and reduce its funding, despite huge measurable accomplishments. In end, Garrett states public health is like no other branch of medicine because it requires three things to be successful:
1. Scientific research that produces vaccines and medicines that prevent the spread of infectious disease;
2. People in government and legislative bodies that will vote to adequately fund public health;
3. An informed public that understands the basic concepts of public health and will do its to make public health work. This includes getting vaccinations for yourself and your family. It includes advocacy for public health measures.
As long as people post nonsense about vaccination and other public health measures, I feel a duty to respond.
Can't rep you again. +1
I agree completely. I don't start vaccine threads either, and you can't post on what isn't there!
I too am a public health advocate. The biggest public health accomplishment of the 20th century was immunizations.
I know I'm 75 pages late to the conversation, but I am completely supportive of people's right to remain unvaccinated. However, I also am equally supportive of the governments right to restrict those people from interacting with others.
All individuals should be free to act toward their own self-destruction until it threatens the health and well-being of others.
They get off on it, I wouldn't waste my time. Their club has been around longer than you've been here. We all call them the "vaccine police" on here. lol Same people, same crap, yada and more yada.
You can make the same argument about the exact same posters using the exact same ridiculous arguments to try and frighten people about things that science has repeatedly shown are both safe and effective. You have a small group of people trying to talk about subjects that they clearly and repeatedly have made it obvious that they are not even remotely qualified to talk about.
Their arguments are almost exclusively based on emotional rhetoric and long since discredited talking points found off of a random fringe conspiracy websites.
One set of people have been arguing with facts and data, another set are arguing based on emotion, conspiracy theories and all sorts of assorted nonsense.
As an example, I've seen the same "well if you're vaccinated then what do YOU have to worry about me" talking point despite it having been repeatedly explained that vaccination is most important for those who simply cannot be vaccinated for various medical reasons at least a couple dozen times.
"If your child is vaccinated and you truly believe in the power of the vaccine, what do you care if anyone else is or not?"
This sort of statement belies an enormous level of ignorance when it comes to even basic microbiology
I've seen mercury repeatedly brought up in regards to children's vaccinations despite the fact that a child can receive every single vaccination without any thimerosal whatsoever.
Its just a bunch of nonsense and emotional rhetoric, repeated over and over in the hope that on the 1000th time it will be proven correct or that the people debating you simply get tired of you throwing **** around like monkeys at the zoo and move on.
You can move to England any time now, oops thats right, they have a strict immigration policy. Well then, next best thing is to make America the same.
I'd be ashamed to admit my views of personal liberty if they didn't include personal or liberty in them. We obviously differ.
I'm not excited to see what's next after you've taken care of parenting.
Why move to England when the courts have already decided when it comes to this issue. Requiring vaccination has repeatedly stood up to court challenges and has long standing precedent in this country.
As California goes, hopefully the rest of the nation follows. We shouldn't be unraveling decades of progress in controlling and eliminating dangerous diseases just cater to a minority of people's paranoid delusions.
The noise surrounding SB 277 is drowning out the truth, which is this: In general, parents have a right to make medical decisions for their children. But when it comes to communicable diseases, which can have devastating consequences on large groups of people, there also is a general societal right to protect public health.
That doesn't necessarily mean vaccinating all children — but it does mean vaccinating enough of them to achieve so-called herd immunity, the level at which even children who are too medically fragile for vaccination, or whose bodies don't respond to vaccination, are protected by the health of others. To achieve that, 90% to 95% of the school-age population must be vaccinated. In many areas of the state — Santa Monica is one example — the rates have fallen far below that level, at least partly because of parents' fears that the vaccines will harm children, though many studies have found them to be generally safe and effective.
Quote:
Californians shouldn't let the rhetoric cloud the long-term goal: a population with strong protection from diseases that were once scourges. Society's right to safeguard its health, especially that of its vulnerable children, trumps individual belief.
A bill requiring California school children to be fully vaccinated will face an easier path through the Assembly than the one it took through the Senate, needing to clear only one committee in the lower house.
The Assembly Rules Committee referred the bill to Assembly Health Committee on Thursday, putting the deeply contentious measure one policy committee away from an Assembly floor vote –the penultimate step before it would go to the desk of Gov. Jerry Brown. The Democratic governor has not taken a stance on Senate Bill 277, but has lauded the benefits of vaccination.
How far do you people want to take this? Yes, there are bills now to mandate vaccinations for your children's teachers and lunch ladies. Lovely. I suppose you ask your neighbors if their kids, includin that they themselves are up to date on all recommended boosters, are vaccinated. Are they under the law obligated to even tell you? Do you demand that a plumber or electrician who enters your home show their vaccination papers too in order to protect your vaccinated children?
What a world government and the Big Pharms have created. Thankfully, I am old and won't live too see more of this.
What a world government and the Big Pharms have created.
Please don't ask that we take such a statement seriously?
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