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Old 06-02-2015, 03:18 PM
 
Location: Geneva, IL
12,976 posts, read 11,801,828 times
Reputation: 14677

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
What a world government and the Big Pharms have created.
Please don't ask that we take such a statement seriously?

 
Old 06-02-2015, 03:28 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,535 posts, read 26,146,877 times
Reputation: 26537
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
If you want to pat yourself on the back for buying into estimates based on estimates based on assumptions, you can.
Again, the epidemiologists understand the methodology. If you do not understand the methodology, you cannot draw valid conclusions concerning benefits and risks of vaccines.

You never offer a valid scientific argument for why you reject a study. Your response boils down to "I don't believe it." That's not good enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
A whooping cough outbreak that has impacted 11 students. 10 of those 11 were up to date on their immunizations.
Yes, vaccines are not 100% effective. We have done this little exercise before, but you apparently do not understand it either.

Take 1000 people. Vaccinate 90% of them: 900.

That leaves 100 unvaccinated.

Let's assume the vaccine is only 70% effective. We can make that assumption because that is the effectiveness that has been determined in previous observations of vaccinated people. That's the way epidemiological information is collected. That means that only 70% of the people given the vaccine are protected and 30% are not: 30% of 900 is 270.

If we expose all 1000 people to whooping cough, 80% of susceptible people will catch it, because it's easy to catch. That is also a figure known from previous studies.

Therefore 80% of the 270 people for whom the vaccine did not work will catch the disease: 216.

And 80% of the 100 who were not vaccinated will catch it: 80.

Therefore, there are more people in the vaccinated group who got sick.

However, we have to look at who did not get sick: 900 - 216 = 630 vaccinated people, or 76% of the original 900 who were vaccinated. Only 20% of the unvaccinated group did not get sick. A person in the unvaccinated group is 76 divided by 20 = 3.8 times more likely to get sick as someone who is vaccinated.

The reason there is a greater absolute number of vaccinated people who get sick is because there are way more vaccinated people.

When you jump in to say, "Look at all the vaccinated people who got sick", you are not saying anything that is not to be expected. You cannot ignore the ones who did not get sick. if you do, you cannot determine the risk of getting sick, which is always higher if you are not vaccinated.

In addition, the folks who are vaccinated are almost 100% protected against severe disease. They will get well faster.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Thimersol is still in the Flu Shot that Publix Supermarkets gives out.

http://www.publix.com/-/media/docume...onsent-fl.ashx

"Are you allergic to cleaning products?" Do they mean like bleach, chlorine, antibacterial soaps/sanitizers on your skin? What would that do being injected into your bloodstream instead?
The question is about known allergy to thimeorsal which is in a large number of over the counter products, including contact lens solutions, in which it is used to inhibit growth of organisms that can cause eye infections, which are not good because they may cause blindness. You do not have to be injected with something in order to be allergic to it. Did you notice the form asks about eggs and other food allergies, too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
Oh whatever, people can think for themselves, you're not righteous, you just don't like it when people you don't agree with think for themselves. Whatever floats your boat, being in America you have the right to talk about stripping others rights away if you feel like it. But maybe you could come up with something you haven't said 4,589 times. lol If the "passion" moves you that is.
Your unjustified fear doesn't justify mandating 100 people out of thousands to get vaccinated and you know it. Fight a real cause and maybe you wouldn't have an argument. All your doing is pushing a small minority into the woods and I'm sure you feel good about it, after all according to you they are killing our children.
Have fun at the H-Y-P-E-R-B-O-L-E party.
If the hundred people were scattered all over the country and no two of them lived in the same town, we would be fine. Unfortunately, all 100 tend to end up in the same school. That's what causes the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
How can it POSSIBLY be cheaper to cure hundreds, even thousands of sick people vs vaccinating MILLIONS of them? I'm no mathematician but one has to be in some major denial not to see that a CURE for disease is what the original vaccine inventors were after. The vaccine proved an effective tool and I would be an idiot to argue otherwise. A truly altruistic society would have kept the pressure on and gone for cures even while using vaccines as an effective first line of defense. But no, the low hanging fruit of vaccine therapy becomes the ONLY objective when a new disease enters our realm. Over reliance on vaccine therapy is why Ebola ravaged West Africa. Developing vaccines takes time and has to be tailored to each organism. A systemic cure for all illnesses wouldn't care what the viral agent was it would work to keep the body's integrity no matter what the actual vector of assault was.
The intent of vaccination was never to cure. It has always been to prevent.

If you do not catch an infection there is no need to cure it. And, guess what, you do not have to get sick.

There is no vaccine for hepatitis C. There has been extensive research on treatment, with the goal of curing it. The treatment is hideously expensive. A twelve week course of Solvadi, at $1000 per pill, costs $84,000. It is possible for 80 to 90% of infected people who are treated to clear the virus.

There is effective treatment for HIV. People with it are no longer doomed to get AIDS. That treatment is also expensive.

Vaccines are so cheap and treating the diseases they prevent is so expensive that costwise the vaccines always win. Vaccines are truly the first line of defense. With them, fewer people get sick and you do not have to spend money to treat them. Besides, any treatment is going to have side effects. There is no treatment for anything that has zero risk and zero side effects.

Vaccines have nothing to do with the emergence of Ebola. What an odd idea.

"A systemic cure for all illnesses wouldn't care what the viral agent was it would work to keep the body's integrity no matter what the actual vector of assault was."

What an absolutely amazing idea! Small problem: it's impossible.

Quote:
As I understand it, millions have been paid to families whose representatives were able to prove clear evidence of vaccine harm. I wonder if you were to compile a list of those clearly harmed by vaccine, those clearly not helped by vaccine and included those unvaccinated that sucumbed to disease... would the list of those unvaccinated who sucumbed to disease be longer or shorter than the list of those who were not helped by vaccine or were actually harmed by faulty vaccine. Hmmm.
Those who are compensated do not have to prove clear evidence of vaccine harm. They only have to show they have a condition that might have been caused by a vaccine and that the condition occurred within a certain time interval after the vaccine was given. The compensation is generous, which is the reason a relatively small number of people have been awarded a considerable amount of money. In fact, if those families sued the vaccine manufacturer, they might lose because they could not prove the vaccine caused the problem. For example, Guillain Barre syndrome is not just an adverse effect of a vaccine. Infections themselves can cause it. Sue the manufacturer and you would have to show the vaccine did it and not an infection totally unrelated to the vaccine.

The list of those who get the disease is always longer than the list of those harmed by the vaccine. A relatively small number will be unprotected by the vaccine. For every vaccine the risk of the disease is greater than the risk of the vaccine. Otherwise the vaccine would not be used.
 
Old 06-02-2015, 03:38 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
3,510 posts, read 2,797,474 times
Reputation: 6371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
How far do you people want to take this? Yes, there are bills now to mandate vaccinations for your children's teachers and lunch ladies. Lovely. I suppose you ask your neighbors if their kids, includin that they themselves are up to date on all recommended boosters, are vaccinated. Are they under the law obligated to even tell you? Do you demand that a plumber or electrician who enters your home show their vaccination papers too in order to protect your vaccinated children?

What a world government and the Big Pharms have created. Thankfully, I am old and won't live too see more of this.


Perfect example of what I was talking about.

Appeal to emotion, the typical strawman "do you demand a plumber or electrician to show their papers" along with the usual conspiracy stuff "Big Pharma is out to destroy you."


Standard fact free rant par for the course from the anti-vaxxers in this thread.
 
Old 06-02-2015, 03:52 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,093 posts, read 69,937,493 times
Reputation: 27520
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juram View Post
Perfect example of what I was talking about.

Appeal to emotion, the typical strawman "do you demand a plumber or electrician to show their papers" along with the usual conspiracy stuff "Big Pharma is out to destroy you."


Standard fact free rant par for the course from the anti-vaxxers in this thread.
I have wondered that myself.

There's a lot more than kids in the schools.
Administration, cafeteria workers, maintenance guys, volunteers.
None of them are asked to provide any proof of immunization.

Is it that everyone just assumes they all had their shots ?

No one wants to comment on this and I've brought this up at school.
They shrug and walk away. Not something they want to deal with it seems.
 
Old 06-02-2015, 04:21 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,392,881 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by jabber_wocky View Post
I'm against forced vaccinations because I would consider that assault. If children with Hep B and HIV can attend school then I don't think it's fair to exclude non vaccinated ones.
 
Old 06-02-2015, 04:58 PM
 
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
9,286 posts, read 16,144,529 times
Reputation: 11272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Why my parents generation was not getting Shingles, not just LUCKY

.Why are ever-younger adults contracting shingles? - Macleans.ca

Chicken Pox vaccine is causing Shingles in younger, and older adults, by not re-exposing them to Chicken Pox. Basically, you have created ANOTHER disease by that vaccination. Basically, my parents generation, and mine, were exposed over many years to children with chicken pox which stimulated the immune system. I wonder. We will find the the same is true for measles, etc., also? Ok, just get a booster shot for that in your old age. Cradle to Grave immunizations as the mantra says.

Don't worry. There is ANOTHER vaccine for you to take to prevent what we created in the first place.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
It's documented fact that being exposed to chicken pox helps keep shingles in check by providing us with immunity boosts.
Funny how that works.... my late mother, who would be 87 if she were still here, was a teacher of 1st, 2nd and 3rd grade children for over 30 years in the 60's, 70's and 80's, so I imagine she got MANY exposure boosters....

and yet endured not one, but TWO severe bouts of shingles in her retirement....

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConeyGirl52 View Post
Im not stretching - but you keep trying, its fun to watch you squirm, lol.

What was the point of the mercury then? It was there is 2009 - why? You need mercury and formaldehyde to kill the flu for a vaccine?

BTW, the US was ranked 37th in the world for healthcare too. Vaccines are a part of healthcare.
we had thimerasol in our contact lens solution, too back in the 80's and 90's.... it was used as a preservative.... no harm, no foul as far as I am concerned....
 
Old 06-02-2015, 05:05 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,093 posts, read 69,937,493 times
Reputation: 27520
Quote:
Originally Posted by latetotheparty View Post
Funny how that works.... my late mother, who would be 87 if she were still here, was a teacher of 1st, 2nd and 3rd grade children for over 30 years in the 60's, 70's and 80's, so I imagine she got MANY exposure boosters....

and yet endured not one, but TWO severe bouts of shingles in her retirement....



we had thimerasol in our contact lens solution, too back in the 80's and 90's.... it was used as a preservative.... no harm, no foul as far as I am concerned....
Right because nothing happened to you.

I ended up in the hospital twice over the course of 2 years and had to give up contact lenses.
I have permanent scars on my cornea.
 
Old 06-02-2015, 05:12 PM
 
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
9,286 posts, read 16,144,529 times
Reputation: 11272
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
Right because nothing happened to you.

I ended up in the hospital twice over the course of 2 years and had to give up contact lenses.
I have permanent scars on my cornea.

were you allergic to the thimerasol?? no one that I knew ever had a problem with it....
 
Old 06-02-2015, 05:13 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
3,510 posts, read 2,797,474 times
Reputation: 6371
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
I have wondered that myself.

There's a lot more than kids in the schools.
Administration, cafeteria workers, maintenance guys, volunteers.
None of them are asked to provide any proof of immunization.

Is it that everyone just assumes they all had their shots ?

No one wants to comment on this and I've brought this up at school.
They shrug and walk away. Not something they want to deal with it seems.


In several states legislation to require exactly that has been fought over fiercely by the anti-vaccination groups. Delaware is just the latest but more and more you're seeing a stronger push for legislation that will require teachers, day care workers and others to show proof of vaccination as well.


Amid Measles Outbreak, Few Rules On Teacher Vaccinations

Quote:
"I will be surprised if we don't see some changes in the next year to year and a half," said Kristen Amundson, executive director of the National Association of School Boards of Education.
Already, some states are considering measles legislation. In Vermont, Democratic Rep. George Till says legislators will try this year to eliminate philosophical exemptions for students and require that teachers be up to date on the same vaccines students must receive.
"If we're trying to limit the spread in school, why just students?" Till said. A similar bill he introduced in 2012 was defeated amid strong opposition from anti-vaccine groups, and he expects another battle.
In Colorado, pro-vaccination groups have been pushing the Department of Human Services to require vaccinations for workers at child care facilities, another area with uneven employee immunization standards.
 
Old 06-02-2015, 05:17 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
3,510 posts, read 2,797,474 times
Reputation: 6371
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I'm against forced vaccinations because I would consider that assault. If children with Hep B and HIV can attend school then I don't think it's fair to exclude non vaccinated ones.

The kids with Hep C and HIV cannot do anything about their conditions. Nor can kids who are unable to be vaccinated due to various medical problems. The issue is perfectly healthy kids whose parents chose not to have them vaccinated.


Here in Arizona, because they have a similar waiver system as in California, you have schools where less than 50% of the kids are vaccinated, well below the threshold of what is considered to be herd immunity. Schools like that are ripe for outbreaks of highly infectious diseases such as the measles among others. That is the problem that laws like this are trying to curb.
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